Official JTR speaker thread - Page 884 - AVS Forum
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post #26491 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Sounds like you need 215RM x 3!!!
I made sure to order a pair of 212HT yesterday before I asked b/c 3 x 215RM is what I want but cannot do. I am already at an impasse with my wife over using my T12s as Side Surrounds.

Chris
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post #26492 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
Thoughts?

Now that the 2015 212HT has a wooden horn would a pair of these as L&R w/ another 212HT as center (identical LCR) be preferred over a 215RM center?

Common sense says three identical speakers are always a better choice and at 101db sensitivity make the 212HT the most obvious choice for a center. My dilemma is that common sense gets in my way so much that I have an uncanny ability to ignore it thus causing myself problems that I just did not see coming.

If I were to go with a 215RM center and 212HT R&L (already ordered) what problems could I have over just getting a matching 212HT as center. Whatever the choice it will be placed horizontal.

Any input will be appreciated as the 215RM is so Bada$$ it mucks up my thought process.
Speaking of mucking up your thought process ... have you considered the 210RT's and/or RM. I think that combo might make for an outstanding LCR but nobodys ordered them (or lived to tell about it ). Just sayin those plus your Subm's would be very cool.
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post #26493 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
I made sure to order a pair of 212HT yesterday before I asked b/c 3 x 215RM is what I want but cannot do. I am already at an impasse with my wife over using my T12s as Side Surrounds.
I am sure Jeff didn't build them yet

T-12's as side surrounds is pretty ridiculous!!

What about if you downsized the surrounds and went bigger on the LCR's?

Actually if you get the 215RM's as LCR's it will make the T-12's look smaller and more acceptable!!
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post #26494 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
I was thinking that since the 212HT and 215RM have the same CD and horn (different size) they would be pretty much the same from 400hz up differing only below that.
Based on the JTR web site, the differences in sensitivity and "horn loaded down to" imply different crossovers. Aside from timbre differences, this could result in phase differences, causing cancellation when sounds pan between the different models of speakers. Not something you want with your front soundstage.

Any of the options I listed should be spectacular.
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post #26495 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Speaking of mucking up your thought process ... have you considered the 210RT's and/or RM. I think that combo might make for an outstanding LCR but nobodys ordered them (or lived to tell about it ). Just sayin those plus your Subm's would be very cool.
Oh yeah...left that out.
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post #26496 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
I made sure to order a pair of 212HT yesterday before I asked b/c 3 x 215RM is what I want but cannot do. I am already at an impasse with my wife over using my T12s as Side Surrounds.
You could do a lot worse than 3x 212HT. There are some big advantages to 101db efficiency. That's equivalent to 4x more power.
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post #26497 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Speaking of mucking up your thought process ... have you considered the 210RT's and/or RM. I think that combo might make for an outstanding LCR but nobodys ordered them (or lived to tell about it ). Just sayin those plus your Subm's would be very cool.
The 210RT/M combination look Awesome. I thoroughly considered it till Jeff announced the '15 212HT w/wooden horn & wider coverage pattern. They will be a direct drop in replacement for the T12s and I can use my same 18" stands. The 210s difference in sensitivity (95db vs 101db) and overall smaller horn size just did not jump out at me. I know in reality I probably could not tell a difference.

I think this is the first time I have ever said these words so here goes: With 212HT across the front and Slanted 8HT for Surrounds I may sell my D-Sonic amp choosing to run the system with an avr only. I will have plenty of time to evaluate the differences b/c I am waiting on Vizio to release their Reference series TV which has been pushed back till at least Spring. Only that TV could convince me to sell my amp.

Chris
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post #26498 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I am sure Jeff didn't build them yet

T-12's as side surrounds is pretty ridiculous!!

What about if you downsized the surrounds and went bigger on the LCR's?

Actually if you get the 215RM's as LCR's it will make the T-12's look smaller and more acceptable!!
You sound like the voice in my head. Had I married an ugly women this is exactly what I would have done. I would probably made her ugly a$$ carry the heavy end too.
That did not happen so 15 years later here I am eating Bologna sandwiches (she cant cook either) making concessions on my audio choices.


Anyone not married here is some good advice

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post #26499 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
You could do a lot worse than 3x 212HT. There are some big advantages to 101db efficiency. That's equivalent to 4x more power.
Thanks man
The voice of reason is always welcome. All of your points are valid.

Chris
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
The 210RT/M combination look Awesome. I thoroughly considered it till Jeff announced the '15 212HT w/wooden horn & wider coverage pattern. They will be a direct drop in replacement for the T12s and I can use my same 18" stands. The 210s difference in sensitivity (95db vs 101db) and overall smaller horn size just did not jump out at me. I know in reality I probably could not tell a difference.

I think this is the first time I have ever said these words so here goes: With 212HT across the front and Slanted 8HT for Surrounds I may sell my D-Sonic amp choosing to run the system with an avr only. I will have plenty of time to evaluate the differences b/c I am waiting on Vizio to release their Reference series TV which has been pushed back till at least Spring. Only that TV could convince me to sell my amp.
Let's not forget.. Although the sensitivity of the 212 is more. The 212's and 210's are totally different animals. The 210's are true full speakers. So the 210's will put out more bass. Well everyone has different taste though. I for one will never go back to setting my speakers to small. The soundstage of true full range speakers is sound to behold..
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post #26501 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
Let's not forget.. Although the sensitivity of the 212 is more. The 212's and 210's are totally different animals. The 210's are true full speakers. So the 210's will put out more bass. Well everyone has different taste though. I for one will never go back to setting my speakers to small. The soundstage of true full range speakers is sound to behold..
Where your system is at right now you have nowhere to go but down. Your speaker and sub choices are as good as I've ever seen. AWESOME!!

I know the 210RT are full range and go lower but I do not think they have more bass then the 212HT at least above 80hz. They may though. I know the '15 212HT has "improved midbass" but I need to hear it to fully grasp what that means.

Chris
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
You could do a lot worse than 3x 212HT. There are some big advantages to 101db efficiency. That's equivalent to 4x more power.
A lot of JTR owners and fans push this as a big deal...I'm not as enamored with the 101db when compared to 95db sensitivity...now if we were talking 90db sensitivity, then I'd start minding again. I know it matters to some but choosing a JTR speaker and 95 or 101db doesn't sway me either way. But I know many on here do care about the 101db sensitivity.
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post #26503 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
A lot of JTR owners and fans push this as a big deal...I'm not as enamored with the 101db when compared to 95db sensitivity...now if we were talking 90db sensitivity, then I'd start minding again. I know it matters to some but choosing a JTR speaker and 95 or 101db doesn't sway me either way. But I know many on here do care about the 101db sensitivity.
Agreed that 95db is already high - higher than most speakers.

Here's my theory as to why 101db has real benefits...speculation here, so please step in if someone has real knowledge. I'm not sure that I'm right about this stuff.

I think that real live sound has lots of big dynamic peaks.
If you clip those peaks away, whether by running out of amp power, overdriving input or outputs, digital clipping, etc., it doesn't sound broken. You can hear heavy clipping, but just clipping of the peaks makes it lose that live, dynamic quality.

And fully getting those peaks takes a surprising combination of amp power and speaker efficiency. My 400 wpc amp + 101db 212HTs seems to do the job nicely.

95db would be just just as good with 1600 wpc amps.
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Speaking of mucking up your thought process ... have you considered the 210RT's and/or RM. I think that combo might make for an outstanding LCR but nobodys ordered them (or lived to tell about it ). Just sayin those plus your Subm's would be very cool.
I wonder why there aren't any 210's in the wild....I thought I saw one some pages back but don't have the umph to go back and find it.


I didn't think the 210RT's were full range either.

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post #26505 of 26518 Old Yesterday, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Agreed that 95db is already high - higher than most speakers.

Here's my theory as to why 101db has real benefits...speculation here, so please step in if someone has real knowledge. I'm not sure that I'm right about this stuff.

I think that real live sound has lots of big dynamic peaks.
If you clip those peaks away, whether by running out of amp power, overdriving input or outputs, digital clipping, etc., it doesn't sound broken. You can hear heavy clipping, but just clipping of the peaks makes it lose that live, dynamic quality.

And fully getting those peaks takes a surprising combination of amp power and speaker efficiency. My 400 wpc amp + 101db 212HTs seems to do the job nicely.

95db would be just just as good with 1600 wpc amps.
If you talk to (or find papers published) Tom Danley, he is a firm believer in true dynamically capable speakers. He has a comment somewhere talking about something as simple as dropping a spoon on the floor could have dynamic peaks of over 50dB. Pretty intense so the more efficient the speaker, the better off you will be in the long run With that said, I would never consider a 95dB speaker "inefficient" by any means. You just have to feed it the power it needs
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
A lot of JTR owners and fans push this as a big deal...I'm not as enamored with the 101db when compared to 95db sensitivity...now if we were talking 90db sensitivity, then I'd start minding again. I know it matters to some but choosing a JTR speaker and 95 or 101db doesn't sway me either way. But I know many on here do care about the 101db sensitivity.
Each has benefits - no right or wrong.
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
If you talk to (or find papers published) Tom Danley, he is a firm believer in true dynamically capable speakers. He has a comment somewhere talking about something as simple as dropping a spoon on the floor could have dynamic peaks of over 50dB. Pretty intense so the more efficient the speaker, the better off you will be in the long run With that said, I would never consider a 95dB speaker "inefficient" by any means. You just have to feed it the power it needs
Back in fhe day Bob Carved used an oscilloscope to show that to accurately reproduce all the transient detail of a snip of scissors in the air would require hundreds of watts.
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Agreed that 95db is already high - higher than most speakers.

Here's my theory as to why 101db has real benefits...speculation here, so please step in if someone has real knowledge. I'm not sure that I'm right about this stuff.

I think that real live sound has lots of big dynamic peaks.
If you clip those peaks away, whether by running out of amp power, overdriving input or outputs, digital clipping, etc., it doesn't sound broken. You can hear heavy clipping, but just clipping of the peaks makes it lose that live, dynamic quality.

And fully getting those peaks takes a surprising combination of amp power and speaker efficiency. My 400 wpc amp + 101db 212HTs seems to do the job nicely.

95db would be just just as good with 1600 wpc amps.
Considering the 212s I have sounds great powering off of my receiver of only 150 watts or so of amp power (I have never found the limit yet... I usually play at -12 which is really, really loud, i believe if not reference, it's above already... once i accidentally played at -5 and it was soooo loud and clean, so between -5 and -12, there's a 7dB difference and I can still go even more with the receiver... and the -5 was just as dynamic to me as the -12)... so, with that said, would it be fair to say I can power the 215s with my receiver as well? I mean, if i ran it at -5 (for the 215s) on my receiver, i'll get the same volume as -12 (on the 212s) (although someone said the 101 dB that jeff posted was lower than actual which might be 104 or something... if that's the case, then the 95dB would be 9dB off).

Anyways... I am still waiting for someone to try using the 215s on just a receiver...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
If you talk to (or find papers published) Tom Danley, he is a firm believer in true dynamically capable speakers. He has a comment somewhere talking about something as simple as dropping a spoon on the floor could have dynamic peaks of over 50dB. Pretty intense so the more efficient the speaker, the better off you will be in the long run With that said, I would never consider a 95dB speaker "inefficient" by any means. You just have to feed it the power it needs
This is why I choose to run the 212HT w/ 2000 w/ch. You think you are playing loud with an AVR and actually you are playing loud and that is the issue. Loud is not what you want dynamic and bigger is what you want. My goal is not louder that is why I choose a bit more absorption and more power because louder is exactly what I don't want.

When you can go into a theater and reference is not "loud" you are in a good place. Not saying I am happy yet but these are my goals.
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Considering the 212s I have sounds great powering off of my receiver of only 150 watts or so of amp power (I have never found the limit yet... I usually play at -12 which is really, really loud, i believe if not reference, it's above already... once i accidentally played at -5 and it was soooo loud and clean, so between -5 and -12, there's a 7dB difference and I can still go even more with the receiver... and the -5 was just as dynamic to me as the -12)... so, with that said, would it be fair to say I can power the 215s with my receiver as well? I mean, if i ran it at -5 (for the 215s) on my receiver, i'll get the same volume as -12 (on the 212s) (although someone said the 101 dB that jeff posted was lower than actual which might be 104 or something... if that's the case, then the 95dB would be 9dB off).

Anyways... I am still waiting for someone to try using the 215s on just a receiver...
When the transients get clipped, it generally sounds fine...not what you think of from an overloaded amp or speaker.

Whether we're talking about 212s or 215s, it will probably sound fine.

Just not quite as good as it could sound if it could reproduce those transients without clipping.

Incidentally, aside from big amps and high efficiency speakers, reducing ambient noise is another effective way to increase dynamic range. Adding sound treatment and using speakers with horns help with this.

Better yet, all of the above.
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Speaking of dynamic range, are the usual microphones up to the task, or is it dependent on the recording engineer using something exotic?
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Considering the 212s I have sounds great powering off of my receiver of only 150 watts or so of amp power (I have never found the limit yet... I usually play at -12 which is really, really loud, i believe if not reference, it's above already... once i accidentally played at -5 and it was soooo loud and clean, so between -5 and -12, there's a 7dB difference and I can still go even more with the receiver... and the -5 was just as dynamic to me as the -12)... so, with that said, would it be fair to say I can power the 215s with my receiver as well? I mean, if i ran it at -5 (for the 215s) on my receiver, i'll get the same volume as -12 (on the 212s) (although someone said the 101 dB that jeff posted was lower than actual which might be 104 or something... if that's the case, then the 95dB would be 9dB off).

Anyways... I am still waiting for someone to try using the 215s on just a receiver...
I ran 3 215's on my Pioneer SC-09tx for 2 months without any problems. As it was 4 ohm capable.I think the reason for me for added amps was to run the LF range hotter through dsp in the Inuke. Other then that, the 215's run perfectly fine on a avr.
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This is why I choose to run the 212HT w/ 2000 w/ch. You think you are playing loud with an AVR and actually you are playing loud and that is the issue. Loud is not what you want dynamic and bigger is what you want. My goal is not louder that is why I choose a bit more absorption and more power because louder is exactly what I don't want.

When you can go into a theater and reference is not "loud" you are in a good place. Not saying I am happy yet but these are my goals.
lbrown...I don't buy it. 3 OS is not dynamic...its dang loud! LOL!
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Incidentally, aside from big amps and high efficiency speakers, reducing ambient noise is another effective way to increase dynamic range. Adding sound treatment and using speakers with horns help with this.
Duct tape is the best treatment I have for reducing ambient noise. Can't hear the kids at all after 1 application.
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lbrown...I don't buy it. 3 OS is not dynamic...its dang loud! LOL!
yeah I oversold it...I ain't buyin it either. This sh$t is loud.
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guys you know what makes your system sound better? Don't listen to it b/c you are too busy at work for a couple weeks. Then turn it up at the start of your two week Christmas vacation! Time to enjoy!

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I know most of us have seen how sensitive jayterz are and can run up to reference with just 1 watt of power (see @Archaea youtube)...but I was wondering what is the minimum power needed to run either the 212HT or 228HT to hear their full range of capability at any reasonable volume all the way up to reference? This stems from our past convos about midbass...If we are running with an avr, there is plenty of power for the highs, but is there really enough for the midbass? After all, lower the frequency, logically more power is needed. Has anyone measured midbass performance between say an average 50-100w from an avr to several hundred...200w to 1000w per channel from an amp? Of course, running speakers as Large to test. And I'm not making this about amp vs avr, just if extra power is what that's required to push midbass performance to what it 'should' be for the 212HT/228HT? Or are the midbass frequencies covered by the amount of power our avr's providing?

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Depends a lot on the FR you are getting at the MLP. If DSP and boosting are in play then power can be gobbled up quickly (+6dB=4x power).

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
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