Official JTR speaker thread - Page 888 - AVS Forum
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post #26611 of 26639 Old Yesterday, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Ground the iNuke chassis to the avr chassis. Problem solved.
Thanks I'll try it tomorrow!

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post #26612 of 26639 Old Yesterday, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Yep. I was recently schooled in this phenomenon yet again. A friend and avs member were at my place last week messing with my system and we decided to compare FLAC to 320. I swore the difference was obvious. So much smoother and detailed with FLAC than 320. Back and forth over and over again with the same sections of songs the difference was so clear.



He thought so too.



Then we tried it blind.



We couldn't tell the difference.

I'm curious, did you guys compare noise floor between the two (noise floor is raise on compressed files)? I know you don't listen to much orchestra music so I doubt you did that comparison [emoji2]

I know that my busted up old ears can't tell a difference between them anymore.
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post #26613 of 26639 Old Yesterday, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
I'm curious, did you guys compare noise floor between the two (noise floor is raise on compressed files)? I know you don't listen to much orchestra music so I doubt you did that comparison [emoji2]

I know that my busted up old ears can't tell a difference between them anymore.
No, and ha, you are right not too much orchestra music in here - although I will listen to some classical from time to time.
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post #26614 of 26639 Old Yesterday, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
dejavu...
Official JTR speaker thread



By the way. Notnyt measured the $20 Lepai 2020 t-amp we used in our blind test just a couple days back and said its a surprisingly decent little amp on the test bench with a flat fr and no trickery. It isn't a powerhouse, but kept within its means it measures and performs quite well. It's nice to see our experiences validated since we were surprised to discover the little t-amp measured and sounded identical to much more expensive Emotiva amps etc (amps as expensive as ~$1k) in blind testing using the instant switching capability.

I've heard people subjectively say the t-amps are easy to identify because they sound different and obviously don't have a flat frequency response, which they can just tell by listening. Well...... ours was flat, as measured separately by me, MrSmithers, and now by notnyt.

What that boils down to is no one wants to think a $20 amp could possibly sound as good as their amp that costs several hundred or more. So that attitude manifests itself, and you hear what you see and expect. The truth is you can't tell the difference if the amp is kept within its means, and 10 watts on something as efficient as the JTR or Klipsch that we tested with goes a long way (to uncomfortable volumes). Blind testing FTW.
Yea.. And I bet a blind test with some of the lower cost cheaply made amps vs the higher cost quality made amps. With close to rated watts between them. No one could tell a difference. Haha.. j/k! Kinda! Just trying to stir things up. Really though... Wait, you guys got all the resources up there.. Enough with the speaker/sub gtg. Someone should make a blind test amp on highly efficient speakers and/or sub gtg. And set all the B/S aside.. Hehe.. Btw, nice post Archaea..

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post #26615 of 26639 Old Today, 12:02 AM
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dejavu...
Official JTR speaker thread
Indeed a Dejavu.
Put some decent PA cabinets outside,wire them them up to a Behringer Inuke + Inuke DSP.
Then listen to a decent processor like XTA, Xilica or whatever.
If you do not hear the difference well then
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post #26616 of 26639 Old Today, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
dejavu...
Official JTR speaker thread



By the way. Notnyt measured the $20 Lepai 2020 t-amp we used in our blind test just a couple days back and said its a surprisingly decent little amp on the test bench with a flat fr and no trickery. It isn't a powerhouse, but kept within its means it measures and performs quite well. It's nice to see our experiences validated since we were surprised to discover the little t-amp measured and sounded identical to much more expensive Emotiva amps etc (amps as expensive as ~$1k) in blind testing using the instant switching capability.

I've heard people subjectively say the t-amps are easy to identify because they sound different and obviously don't have a flat frequency response, which they can just tell by listening. Well...... ours was flat, as measured separately by me, MrSmithers, and now by notnyt.

What that boils down to is no one wants to think a $20 amp could possibly sound as good as their amp that costs several hundred or more. So that attitude manifests itself, and you hear what you see and expect. The truth is you can't tell the difference if the amp is kept within its means, and 10 watts on something as efficient as the JTR or Klipsch that we tested with goes a long way (to uncomfortable volumes). Blind testing FTW.

I just talked to an engineer who builds Tube Amps.. and he says something that completely went over my head so i juts nodded as I am no engineer... ok, if i got him correctly, he's saying that the 'amplitude' or 'dynamic range' or 'voltage' or 'whatever engineer terms', on the tubes cannot be efficiently replicated by the modern amps... basically, he's saying there's distortion no matter what because in order to replicate what the tube can do, an A or AB class amp for instance need a very, very large coil or something that isn't in your typical receiver or amplifier... it's a physical thing... or something.. anyways, if anyone knows what he's talking about please clarify...
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post #26617 of 26639 Old Today, 03:31 AM
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@rhed
We did. At least definitively tried.

Audyssey defeated our original test, when it turned itself on after a power cycle, unknown to the setup person.

We repeated the test the next day on a smaller scale and came to realize with several amps tested, including a t-amp that in fast blind switching no one could tell the difference. Even in full range use. (Double checked -voltage matched with a multimeter and spl level matched with omnimics spl meter)

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/61-area-home-theater-meets/1472180-do-amps-matter-kansas-city-blind-amp-comparison-gtg-7.html

East coast guys were going to perform the test too to confirm results, but lost interest when they (typical hosts) came to the same conclusion in their own experimentation.

Looses appeal to listen to the exact same thing over and over with no discenable difference between entries.

I'd like to repeat the test on a large scale again some time to confirm the results with a lot of people to put the issue to bed. But its a lot of setup work and the fast switching mechanism can fry an amp with user error. Which happened twice at the g2g (not at my command either time - but it smoked my little t-amp, which was the only permanent casualty.)



@subbass
Not sure what outside matters as compared to inside. Unless you are saying play it louder at which point no one would disagree that the t-amp will run out of steam first followed by the next least powerful amp and so on and you can tell an amp appart if one is clipping and another isn't, but our test intention was meant to keep the amps within their means and not test output, but sound quality.
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post #26618 of 26639 Old Today, 04:30 AM
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Well I am not talking about low volumes.
But when I see the stuff you guys park @ home I doubt you guys just park it there for listening at low volumes.

For example while pushing an XTI amp hard on mid/high it will just start to sound harsh.
I compared it to the Amptec amps I was selling back then and the A2.0 did not sound harsh. Both amps were measured and both were near / on clipping level. Cause just staring on the clipping indicator does not make much sense. For example when the clipping indicator on my amps become active it still has like 3db left !

Amps do have a different clipping behaviour, have different parts inside, different phase shiftng etc and not each amp produces the same % of THD.
Not all amps recover identically.

And yes an XTA / Xilica sounds so much better than the Behringer Inuke DSP, you just cannot ignore that.
But also not quite comparable, by far, if it comes up to $$

Just found the XTI measurement / test again.
Just have a look at it, power output drastically drops on high frequencies.
http://www.abeltronics.co.uk/amptest...crown_XTI-4000

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post #26619 of 26639 Old Today, 04:51 AM
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No, and ha, you are right not too much orchestra music in here - although I will listen to some classical from time to time.

You might find this interesting @carp
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post #26620 of 26639 Old Today, 07:39 AM
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Hey @desertdome , did you receive your Volt 6's yet?
I received them on Friday. I won't have time to put them together for probably a couple more weeks.
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post #26621 of 26639 Old Today, 08:04 AM
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I thought we were talking about clipping and how much power you really need, not how similar most amps sound below clipping (what most of those blind tests focus on).
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post #26622 of 26639 Old Today, 09:16 AM
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I concede "almost" all amps sound alike to me, its the clipping and efficiency that I focus on when looking for the "right amp" for my needs.

Chris

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post #26623 of 26639 Old Today, 09:35 AM
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You might find this interesting @carp
Thanks for the link, in the comments at the bottom I stumbled upon this blind test.


http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02...test_3422.html

More of the participants preferred the mp3 320 than the CD! Not only that, the more expensive the equipment the listener owned the stronger the preferrence for mp3. Weird. More discussion here:


http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02...nd-test_2.html

and here:

http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02...st-part-4.html
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@Archaea
Yes.. Another blind test like that will answer and probably shock most of us. Btw, I know most of us is great full for you and others who put up such great gtg's. I have read and followed all of them. From the sub gtg to the eq/avr comparison. Very informative and interesting. These blind test are the only way to get real world results. Thanks..

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post #26625 of 26639 Old Today, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Thanks for the link, in the comments at the bottom I stumbled upon this blind test.


http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02...test_3422.html

More of the participants preferred the mp3 320 than the CD! Not only that, the more expensive the equipment the listener owned the stronger the preferrence for mp3. Weird. More discussion here:


http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02...nd-test_2.html

and here:

http://archimago.blogspot.ca/2013/02...st-part-4.html
Why is expectation bias only attributed to sighted evaluations?
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post #26626 of 26639 Old Today, 12:54 PM
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I doubt I could tell an 320 mp3 vs a flac file just based on having lots of both and of the same songs. Though I've never actually sat down and tried a direct A/B test. I just DL flac because, well, why not? storage is cheap, may as well get the best quality, if I have the choice, for no other reason than that really.

As for amps, I've always been in the camp that there's not much/if any differences in amps playing within their limits. I've never personally heard any differences in any amps that I would think "Oh this sounds way better". I personally think most people get caught on amp gain causing the differences. You go from a 27dB gain amp to a 29dB, it's going to be instantly louder, so most people will conclude that it's "better sounding" "hearing things I've never heard before" etc, if only because it's louder lol.

I can't comment on having an amp on a non dedicated line vs a dedicated one and SQ differences there, I would assume it may sound better if the amp was being limited, which in lots of cases, I'm sure is the actual case.
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post #26627 of 26639 Old Today, 01:02 PM
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I can't comment on having an amp on a non dedicated line vs a dedicated one and SQ differences there, I would assume it may sound better if the amp was being limited, which in lots of cases, I'm sure is the actual case.

That is pretty much what it is. When I was talking about it, I didn't mean that the amp sounded better, other than the ULF. It was just a little bit louder. I really mostly noticed it watching TV and not movies. This is what I did at half time during the crappy Eagles loss to the Foreskins. During the movies, the ULF was not choking out my amps and sending them into protection mode anymore. I guess this all had to do with less voltage on tap with everything on a single circuit and my inuke running through a line filter. I lot of variables changed so I can't say for sure what the culprit was, but I have a good feeling that it was the circuit. When I had my S2 off, the inukes would not go into protection as easy, but they still could depending on MLV.
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post #26628 of 26639 Old Today, 01:26 PM
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I doubt I could tell an 320 mp3 vs a flac file just based on having lots of both and of the same songs. Though I've never actually sat down and tried a direct A/B test. I just DL flac because, well, why not? storage is cheap, may as well get the best quality, if I have the choice, for no other reason than that really.

As for amps, I've always been in the camp that there's not much/if any differences in amps playing within their limits. I've never personally heard any differences in any amps that I would think "Oh this sounds way better". I personally think most people get caught on amp gain causing the differences. You go from a 27dB gain amp to a 29dB, it's going to be instantly louder, so most people will conclude that it's "better sounding" "hearing things I've never heard before" etc, if only because it's louder lol.

I can't comment on having an amp on a non dedicated line vs a dedicated one and SQ differences there, I would assume it may sound better if the amp was being limited, which in lots of cases, I'm sure is the actual case.
Thank you N8 for posting that. I for one trust your judgement since you've already went through most of the amps mentioned the couple post back. FWIW.. I like what the Inuke 12000 and 6000 is supplying my speakers with. I never experience any fatigue with these amps. One more thing I like to add, is when I engage MCACC and disengage all eq done to the Inuke. It sounds harsh. I think it's the eq in avr (MCACC) that makes the sound harsh. Plus the amp to intensify the harshness. Bad combo.. Haha. So I'm back back to bypass the auto eq in the avr. And just eq to taste in the inukes DSP. I will run these amps till it gives out on me. Then will try different ones. But as of right now, I'd rather add more subs to my system instead of chasing that better amp..
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post #26629 of 26639 Old Today, 01:32 PM
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I put a piece of copper from my inuke to my receiver. Sure enough archeae was right

I also plugged all subs into different circuits. I don't have any that are completely dedicated to the subs but still helped to split them up. I gained 2dbs which I was suprissed to see! Never thought I would be able to gain output by doing that pretty neat
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post #26630 of 26639 Old Today, 01:38 PM
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I put a piece of copper from my inuke to my receiver. Sure enough archeae was right

I also plugged all subs into different circuits. I don't have any that are completely dedicated to the subs but still helped to split them up. I gained 2dbs which I was suprissed to see! Never thought I would be able to gain output by doing that pretty neat
newc33.. You should be able to gain more then 2 dbs. I would suggest to redo input and output. Unless you did that already.
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post #26631 of 26639 Old Today, 04:10 PM
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What do u mean by redo input and output

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post #26632 of 26639 Old Today, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I doubt I could tell an 320 mp3 vs a flac file just based on having lots of both and of the same songs. Though I've never actually sat down and tried a direct A/B test. I just DL flac because, well, why not? storage is cheap, may as well get the best quality, if I have the choice, for no other reason than that really.

As for amps, I've always been in the camp that there's not much/if any differences in amps playing within their limits. I've never personally heard any differences in any amps that I would think "Oh this sounds way better". I personally think most people get caught on amp gain causing the differences. You go from a 27dB gain amp to a 29dB, it's going to be instantly louder, so most people will conclude that it's "better sounding" "hearing things I've never heard before" etc, if only because it's louder lol.

I can't comment on having an amp on a non dedicated line vs a dedicated one and SQ differences there, I would assume it may sound better if the amp was being limited, which in lots of cases, I'm sure is the actual case.
Even assuming 320kbps mp3 is indistinguishable from flac, for the low cost of storage, it's nice just to eliminate the variable, and worry about other stuff.
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post #26633 of 26639 Old Today, 05:21 PM
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Why is expectation bias only attributed to sighted evaluations?

Elaborate, if you please?

In a blind test -- the tested subject doesn't know which is which, and thus sighted/expectation bias is eliminated to the subject tested. If it is setup fairly by the testers, and they aren't giving clues ----- I'm not sure what type of bias you are referring to?

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post #26634 of 26639 Old Today, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Elaborate, if you please?

In a blind test -- the tested subject doesn't know which is which, and thus sighted/expectation bias is eliminated to the subject tested. If it is setup fairly by the testers, and they aren't giving clues ----- I'm not sure what type of bias you are referring to?
Sure. The cause of sighted /expectation bias is that the subject sees a particular product and, say if it's more expensive, expects it to sound better. According to the theory, this unconscious bias then causes them to hear things that aren't really there(proven by blind testing). So we accept that the mind can hear things that aren't there if it believes it should be.

But what about the converse situation? Why is it no one questions whether there is a blind expectation bias? If the subject believes that blind testing will show no difference then it is just as reasonable to expect them to unconsciously hear no difference, even if one exists. And how do we neutralize it? What's the "blind test" for the blind test?
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This is getting deep. Good stuff though!

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A blind test of some sought after sensitive speakers (Klipsch, JBL, Reation, JTR, PSA, DIY, and others) powered by 1 hate/love amp (Behringer) will be one interesting gtg.. lol.
Really though a blind test will challenge the individual. I remember following the one this past years one with the Danley SM60f? When some who owned the 212's thought was playing? But it was the Danley's. I forgot what gtg was that. But that was very interesting because right when the owners thought they knew their own speakers, not..
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A blind test of some sought after sensitive speakers (Klipsch, JBL, Reation, JTR, PSA, DIY, and others) powered by 1 hate/love amp (Behringer) will be one interesting gtg.. lol.
Really though a blind test will challenge the individual. I remember following the one this past years one with the Danley SM60f? When some who owned the 212's thought was playing? But it was the Danley's. I forgot what gtg was that. But that was very interesting because right when the owners thought they knew their own speakers, not..
Yea, I remember reading about that too.
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Sure. The cause of sighted /expectation bias is that the subject sees a particular product and, say if it's more expensive, expects it to sound better. According to the theory, this unconscious bias then causes them to hear things that aren't really there(proven by blind testing). So we accept that the mind can hear things that aren't there if it believes it should be.

But what about the converse situation? Why is it no one questions whether there is a blind expectation bias? If the subject believes that blind testing will show no difference then it is just as reasonable to expect them to unconsciously hear no difference, even if one exists. And how do we neutralize it? What's the "blind test" for the blind test?
The carrot in a blind test is to be the one who can statistically prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he can identify which is which when his peers cannot. Conversely no one is going to say things sound the same if they don't, because they want to be the one individual who says I can identify the difference, I am special. The motivation is clear to correctly identify.

I went into the blind amp meet with the knowledge that these types of tests had been done before and it was previously revealed that amsp sounded the same within their means. But I admit, I thought I might be able to identify the t-amp and the class D iNuke because of testing in my room where my class A/B Crown amp and Emotiva xpa-3 was slightly better sounding than the cheap/inferior t-amp and class d amp.

Class D is only good for subwoofer use right? How many times have you read that here?

Nahhhh, I had to throw my hands up, and admit they sounded identical, despite my sighted previous perceptions/experiences. I would have loved to be the guy that could tell 10 out of 10 times correctly which amp was the t-amp.
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