Official JTR speaker thread - Page 889 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #26641 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Quill View Post
LOL....I have a big white sheet up as I await my Jamestown screen (tomorrow)....so here are some pics pre and mid-install:

I'll take more pics before I hang the screen.

Q


^ Yep, you aren't getting off that easy with a measly 2 pics!!

Such a great system, dual OS was a great choice IMO!! Just in time for Christmas too, friggin awesome man!
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post #26642 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 09:15 AM
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It is funny, just the mentioning of dual orbit shifters has me EVERY TIME type in www.jtrspeakers.com and go look at the stats on them. Call it pavlov's dog, but it is like clockwork....
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post #26643 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
It is funny, just the mentioning of dual orbit shifters has me EVERY TIME type in www.jtrspeakers.com and go look at the stats on them. Call it pavlov's dog, but it is like clockwork....
Haha, yeah and then I start thinking about the OS pro. 139 db's above 37hz!! Talk about chest pounding!! Jeff says he listens to music with 215's and 2 OS Pro's. I'd love to experience that.
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post #26644 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Haha, yeah and then I start thinking about the OS pro. 139 db's above 37hz!! Talk about chest pounding!! Jeff says he listens to music with 215's and 2 OS Pro's. I'd love to experience that.
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post #26645 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Haha, yeah and then I start thinking about the OS pro. 139 db's above 37hz!! Talk about chest pounding!! Jeff says he listens to music with 215's and 2 OS Pro's. I'd love to experience that.
Oh I wish I could fit two OS pros in the theater!

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
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Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
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post #26646 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I think you missed my point completely. One of the key differences in amps is output impedance. So if the subject is really testing different amps, then why eliminate a key difference (output impedance) in a blind test? You've no longer allowed the amps to be "different" in one metric that some consider important and audible.
Yea totally missed it.. Like whoosh over my head. Haha! Thought you were talking about different subwoofers on different amps. Until I reread it over. Then read Archaea's response to that. OK, I was totally off! Oops! My bad!
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post #26647 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
It is funny, just the mentioning of dual orbit shifters has me EVERY TIME type in www.jtrspeakers.com and go look at the stats on them. Call it pavlov's dog, but it is like clockwork....
I don't know what you're waiting for...order them. While you're at it...get 4.

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Haha, yeah and then I start thinking about the OS pro. 139 db's above 37hz!! Talk about chest pounding!! Jeff says he listens to music with 215's and 2 OS Pro's. I'd love to experience that.
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
Oh I wish I could fit two OS pros in the theater!
I'm surrounded by a bunch of crazy nutz
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post #26648 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:06 AM
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Well I am not going to take any walls down to fit the OS pro's so I am only thinking nuts, not acting nuts (not yet anyway)

Today my Dirac kit will arrive for my XMC-1 so I'll try to stay busy with that and forget about the OS pros
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post #26649 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Quill View Post
So I got my (new version) 212HTs, dual OS's and S8s....and basically I started my email to Jeff with "Wow. Just....wow."

I'm blown away, and while I knew they would rock movies, I am very pleasantly surprised at how well they image and present music. Let me put it this way...on my way to writing this, I put my ear up to the middle of the screen (again), expecting to hear that speaker on....and it wasn't (again). I've found myself just sitting in the front row listening to tunes until well past any rational bed-time...

And to top it off, Jeff was running late, so he put a 1000lbs of speakers on an airplane (at his cost) to make a date that was important for me. Very impressive.

If I had to pick a word, it would be "effortless". Intellectually, you know you have it playing loud, but is sounds so good! So you hit "+" again.....and again...then hit "recline"....

Anyway, I'd say I need to sign off and go to bed, but reality is there's a Norah Jones disc I need to spin now...so...later!

Signed,

Extremely happy with my JTRs.
Congrats...

What were you using before the new 212HT?

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post #26650 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:19 AM
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OK.. I'm spitting out the secret early.. This been on my mind for awhile now. And I'm gonna do it.That is my next plan for early 2015. Hopefully before March/April.. I convinced the wifey with a floor plan on where I will put these beast. But I agreed with her that I will have to have these laying on its side rather then upright. And I have to sell some of my old deftech subs that's sittin in the storage. So the mission is on...
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post #26651 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I asked you to clarify, but didn't see a response.
Sorry, I guess I missed it.

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I measured all eight single throw, dual pole switches with a multimeter before the test, the impendance was registered at a couple hundreths of an ohm.
In other words, you were doubling the output impedance of an amplifier with low output impedance. Some amps have an output impedance of .02 ohms. How do you know what is significant and what is not.

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You'll have to explain how my 30' of 12 gauge copper speaker wire used in my switching mechanisms, is going to be different than the typical users 30' of speaker wire used in their room, because my multimeter says the actual electrical switches impedance is absolutely trivial, and the overall combined line/switch impendance was WELL below the conservative 5% rated impedance of the speaker's nominal rating that could cause audible implications.

If you think you can tell the difference between say 6' of 12 gauge wire (which is probably the shortest length of wire any typical front soundstage would use) and 30' of the same 12 gauge wire on your choice of 4 ohm or 8 ohm speakers with everything else being the same, then your dampening argument has merit ------- BUT, I'd be suprised to hear anyone say they could distinguish that diffference.
A typical user may have 30' of speaker wire. They also say amps sound the same. A typical person that says amplifiers sound different usually uses 8' or less for speaker wires. Some put their amps right next to the speakers for the shortest length possible.

Again, I'm not saying that it makes a difference. Crown seems to think it does, but only in the bass which wasn't being tested anyway. However, eliminating something that amplifier designers say is audible (and possibly even the only thing) seems like the wrong way to go about it. I'm not trying to impunge your test, but point out that people can still hear differences in amplifiers without your test proving they are wrong.
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post #26652 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rhed View Post
OK.. I'm spitting out the secret early.. This been on my mind for awhile now. And I'm gonna do it.That is my next plan for early 2015. Hopefully before March/April.. I convinced the wifey with a floor plan on where I will put these beast. But I agreed with her that I will have to have these laying on its side rather then upright. And I have to sell some of my old deftech subs that's sittin in the storage. So the mission is on...
So OS pros? Do you feel like you've been missing something?
Have any pics of how you have everything setup right now? And how big is your room?

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post #26653 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:34 AM
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Oh I wish I could fit two OS pros in the theater!
You mean in addition to the 3 OS's you have now???

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post #26654 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by asoofi1 View Post
Congrats...

What were you using before the new 212HT?
My old ht was in an open part of the basement of a bi level where the sound carried through the whole house, so I held off on upgrading my PSB 5Ts for years. And since my kids are still young (<8), I had become a headphone aficionado....

Just moved (built) a new place with a dedicated room... And I can now watch movies at 8/10 with the family sleeping!

Admittedly, my comparative listening experiences range all across PSB, klipsch, etc and top out at paradigm studio 100s and a few sets of Focals.
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post #26655 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:39 AM
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OK.. I'm spitting out the secret early.. This been on my mind for awhile now. And I'm gonna do it.That is my next plan for early 2015. Hopefully before March/April.. I convinced the wifey with a floor plan on where I will put these beast. But I agreed with her that I will have to have these laying on its side rather then upright. And I have to sell some of my old deftech subs that's sittin in the storage. So the mission is on...
So what is the secret or am I missing something? Is it OS Pro's? Something else?

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post #26656 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:48 AM
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So OS pros? Do you feel like you've been missing something?
Have any pics of how you have everything setup right now? And how big is your room?
Really.. I'm not missing anything at all. Once you get the taste of huge front stage sound. Curiosity hits again. Hmm, how much more bigger of front stage can I get. The 215's with the 4 S2's down low does bring out a whole experience in itself for me. My 40 hz and down are more then I need. The 215's 40 hz and up does a wonderful job. I'm just wanting to add a turbo to the NA engine. Oh, my room is exactly 17'-9 x 18'-10 x 9'

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post #26657 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Sorry, I guess I missed it.


In other words, you were doubling the output impedance of an amplifier with low output impedance. Some amps have an output impedance of .02 ohms. How do you know what is significant and what is not.
Because that value is well below the amount of impedance a length of speaker wire contains that has been shown to make audible distortion.

If 5% is the conservative value given about what could make an audible difference, and it's more likely 10% according to that article --- then 5% of a 4 ohm nominal load is .2 ohm, of an 8ohm load is .4ohm My .02 ohm resistance on the electrical switch is inconsequential.


Quote:
A typical user may have 30' of speaker wire. They also say amps sound the same. A typical person that says amplifiers sound different usually uses 8' or less for speaker wires. Some put their amps right next to the speakers for the shortest length possible.
Curious, how long is your speaker wire to your mains? Mine is about 25 foot. I've never read anyone say this amp sounded superior to that amp, but only if I use 3' lengths of speaker wire. I don't think i've ever even read of a enthusiast test where the length of appropriately gauged speaker wire was a major attribute of the test.

Quote:
Again, I'm not saying that it makes a difference. Crown seems to think it does, but only in the bass which wasn't being tested anyway. However, eliminating something that amplifier designers say is audible (and possibly even the only thing) seems like the wrong way to go about it. I'm not trying to impunge your test, but point out that people can still hear differences in amplifiers without your test proving they are wrong.
True, I cannot say you cannot tell the difference without you testing. Nor can I say that for anyone else. I challenge you, 1) because you are my friend, 2) because you have been pretty confident in the past your amps sound better than the general rank and file amp, and so now that I've issued a friendly challenge to you a couple times on pursuing that blind test. Let's do it!
You can choose the speaker wire length. Heck use thicker cable if you like. Though we may have trouble getting that 0 gauge wire in the t-amp terminals when we do your 1:1 A/B.
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post #26658 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
We had guys attend the meet that absolutely knew for sure they could tell the difference between amplifiers going in. Most of us were undecided. Like I said that test was before I came to my own conclusion on the subject. One of these guys who believed very much in the differences between amps, sold all his emotiva gear immediately after the meet, due to his own observations that he couldn't tell the difference between a T-amp and a $1K Emotiva amp on his own Klipsch speakers running full range.

I have a standing offer to loan the switching mechanism to any trusted AVSforum member who is interested in testing out their own amps themselves or with some local peers.
The offer is much appreciated. But again, the question is what about blind bias? I feel like somehow we're talking about two different things . It's an uncomfortable topic since I suspect there is no good answer.
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post #26659 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 11:00 AM
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Do It Desert Do It !!!!!

It just takes once and Jonathan will quit playing that broken record challenge. That test is set up for the house to win.
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post #26660 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Quill View Post
My old ht was in an open part of the basement of a bi level where the sound carried through the whole house, so I held off on upgrading my PSB 5Ts for years. And since my kids are still young (<8), I had become a headphone aficionado....

Just moved (built) a new place with a dedicated room... And I can now watch movies at 8/10 with the family sleeping!

Admittedly, my comparative listening experiences range all across PSB, klipsch, etc and top out at paradigm studio 100s and a few sets of Focals.
Oh, I know what you mean. I used to watch on my laptop with my trusty excellent sony mdrv6 headphones most of the time or just the plasma. Was waiting to buy a new house before diving all in. The dual OS especially will keep you happy for a very long time.

---------------------------------------------------------------
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post #26661 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 11:21 AM
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Do It Desert Do It !!!!!

It just takes once and Jonathan will quit playing that broken record challenge. That test is set up for the house to win.
I think this will be one interesting test. That a lot here would wanna see the results..
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post #26662 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 11:25 AM
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Quill must have brought the good vibes here today, I just received my shipment notification for my 4 Slanted 8's and my 2 Volt 6's.


Good holidays for sure. I will post pics when they arrive.
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post #26663 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 11:32 AM
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Quill must have brought the good vibes here today, I just received my shipment notification for my 4 Slanted 8's and my 2 Volt 6's.


Good holidays for sure. I will post pics when they arrive.
That's exciting for sure.. You'll gonna love those slanted 8's. Let us know how the volts sounds. I've heard nothing but good things about them.
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post #26664 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 12:02 PM
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Who gave Archaea a red marker?

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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Because that value is well below the amount of impedance a length of speaker wire contains that has been shown to make audible distortion.
The article below has a chart that shows impedance of various wire at various lengths. This must be added to other impedance such as amplifier output impedance and switch impedance. It seems like by going on the 25' 12 gauge speaker cable that one could end up with a low dampening factor.
What Is Loudspeaker Damping & Damping Factor (DF)?

Quote:
Curious, how long is your speaker wire to your mains?
7 ft

Quote:
because you have been pretty confident in the past your amps sound better than the general rank and file amp
I have said they are quieter than anything else I've used (lower noise floor). I purchased my amps based on balanced input, frequency response, dynamic capability, efficiency, noise floor, voltage stability at any impedance, low sensitivity (high input voltage needed), and low gain. My goal is to provide each speaker and subwoofer with instantaneous high current of 200-300 amps for 1 second and 150-200 amps for 10 seconds.

As an aside, here is an interesting article on amplifier impedance for headphones.
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post #26665 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 12:08 PM
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who gave archaea a red marker? :d
lol

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post #26666 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 01:00 PM
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You mean in addition to the 3 OS's you have now???
that might be excessive. I'll probably stick with just lfu's for now. Maybe I can just demo Rhed's system once he gets the pros. I want to get out to Hawaii anyways.

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
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post #26667 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 01:47 PM
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that might be excessive. I'll probably stick with just lfu's for now. Maybe I can just demo Rhed's system once he gets the pros. I want to get out to Hawaii anyways.
Not in this forum.....

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post #26668 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 02:47 PM
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The offer is much appreciated. But again, the question is what about blind bias? I feel like somehow we're talking about two different things . It's an uncomfortable topic since I suspect there is no good answer.
Whether sited or not the listener knows that he will be hearing 2 different amps/speakers/ect.. As such it doesn't matter whether he can see the equipment or not. His expectation is that they will may sound different. The bias may come into play, however, if the listener believes that there will be no difference in sound despite the equipment. Again, it would not matter if the test was blind or not. As you increase your sample size though, I think that you will eliminate most of this since most people probably feel they can tell the difference between a $20 amp and a $1000 amp. Regardless, I wouldn't call it blind bias as it does not matter whether you are blind or not.


If a blind test is performed where the listener believes he will be hearing the same music on the same equipment twice (but actually not). The bias you describe would come into play.


-Mike
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post #26669 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I have said they are quieter than anything else I've used (lower noise floor).
You said more about them than just having a lower noise floor, and fairly recently too.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Digital Amp Company King Maraschino

I used these at RMAF with the JTR 215HT.

I was so impressed with the bass on the 215HT's with the Maraschinos that last night I hooked one up to one of my infinite baffle manifolds. I wired the four 8-ohm drivers in parallel for a 2 ohm load. The amps can provide 800 watts RMS at 2 ohms and can handle down to a 1 ohm load. One could easily tell the difference between this amp and my Face Audio F1200TS driving the other manifold. The Face had two drivers per channel for a 4 ohms load and a total of 4400 watts for all 4 drivers. The Maraschino seemed to have deeper bass (even with music) and the bass notes were more defined and dynamic. I'm probably going to use the Maraschino's for my IB subs and the Cherry MONOs for my mains.
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I mentioned comparing my Maraschino amps to my Face amps and hearing a difference. I've also compared my Cherry MONO's to the Maraschino on my LS6 and the JTR 215RT. They sound different with both speakers, yet they are both "Cherry" amps. There really isn't a "better" and I don't even care. However, they do sound different. Even the designer thinks they sound different and he doesn't care one bit about speaker or power cables and has publicly stated they make no difference to sound. One difference could be because "most amplifiers have bass phase shift due to AC coupling, but the Maraschino DC couples the signal throughout for no bass phase shift and response down to zero hertz." Another reason for a difference is that the Maraschino has less than half the output impedance of the MONO. Using your switching gear negates any output impedance differences. Here is an interesting article by NwAvGuy (who disappeared last year) on headphones and output impedance.

Last night I didn't compare voltage, but if you can hear a difference at a range of volumes then level matching doesn't really matter. My son heard a difference and made similar observations without any leading questions.




and stilllllllll dodging my blind test challenge.......

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #26670 of 30542 Old 12-23-2014, 03:02 PM
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The article below has a chart that shows impedance of various wire at various lengths. This must be added to other impedance such as amplifier output impedance and switch impedance. It seems like by going on the 25' 12 gauge speaker cable that one could end up with a low dampening factor.
What Is Loudspeaker Damping & Damping Factor (DF)?

streeeeeeettttttchhiiiiing ---- but can't quite make it.......

Even if we ran 50 foot of 12 gauge cable to a 4ohm speaker (we didn't) we'd still be in the clear because according to that article our dampening factor would still be over 20. It was still in the safe zone.

I thought I remembered my 20 or 25 foot of cable seemed to be measuring at about .07 ohms, but didn't put that in my previous post because it's been too long since I did this to remember preciously, and I didn't want to give you a false footing to stand on if I was recalling wrong. The article you linked states it should be .08 ohms for 25' of 12 gauge cable or .16 ohms for 50' of 12 gauge cable. That jives with what I recall seeing on my multimeter.



Your son can do the blind test too if you like?!!?

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
Archaea's Theatre Room
2011 KC Sub Shootout
2012 KC Blind Sub Shootout
My Subwoofer Recommendations by Pricepoint
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