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post #28231 of 28254 Old 03-04-2015, 11:36 AM
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Thanks RMK. It may be wood but for some reason I thought it might have been some sort of plastic. I'll look again.


And Coach's 215s came with grills for each of the woofers but not for the wood horn, which we wouldn't want to hide anyway.
Speaking of grill covers, hey @Gooddoc , you get some glue to keep those bad boys on your m2's?

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post #28232 of 28254 Old 03-04-2015, 06:44 PM
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Im not watching an hour of that. What did he say about class D and how old was this episode? I know well the challenge of him creating an amp that sounded identical to the $30,000 one he was benchmarked against. It was truly enlightening. Carver is a genius. I still miss my old carver amp. I hope its new owner is getting good use out of it.....
August 2010. I use to have some of his stuff from carver and always thought I'd try sunfire but never got around to it.
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post #28233 of 28254 Old 03-04-2015, 06:48 PM
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Ray,

Having the CD's a couple inches above ear height will not be a problem at all. I would opt to have all three speakers at the same exact height before I would worry about anything else. Putting the 212's on top of the triaxes and gives you a little more flexibility anyways. You may find that the response is better with the combo a little ways in from the side wall, or perhaps better right up against the side wall. Doing this configuration will allow the ability to experiment a little with what sounds best to you.
Thanks.

That is probably the route I will take.

If they end up being higher than that should i angle them down just a bit?
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post #28234 of 28254 Old 03-04-2015, 06:59 PM
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Im not watching an hour of that. What did he say about class D and how old was this episode? I know well the challenge of him creating an amp that sounded identical to the $30,000 one he was benchmarked against. It was truly enlightening. Carver is a genius. I still miss my old carver amp. I hope its new owner is getting good use out of it.....
I wouldn't be able to explain it well.

You can start watching from 45:30 in. He starts talking about Class D amp then and goes into Tubes...
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post #28235 of 28254 Old 03-04-2015, 07:03 PM
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None of the Denon AVR uses class D amp.
You're right. My mistake.. I meant Pioneer...
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post #28236 of 28254 Old 03-04-2015, 11:11 PM
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@asoofi1 , @raynist :
The $350 USB cable sold.
Congratulations to the buyer!
You are in for some perfect sounding bits.

FS: AudioQuest Diamond USB 0.75m Cable
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post #28237 of 28254 Old Yesterday, 03:20 AM
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@asoofi1 , @raynist :
The $350 USB cable sold.
Congratulations to the buyer!
You are in for some perfect sounding bits.

FS: AudioQuest Diamond USB 0.75m Cable
He has a few other things for sale too - all great deals!
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post #28238 of 28254 Old Yesterday, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post
August 2010. I use to have some of his stuff from carver and always thought I'd try sunfire but never got around to it.
I will vouch for it. Great great amp for sure. Small footprint. Pretty cool looking too I know his affinity for tubes, so in the Tga-7401, he put a switch on it to basically make the first 5 watts from the main channels sound as if it were a tube amp. It is basically a 5ohm resistor in-line that introduces the distortion one gets from tube amps that makes speakers appear more "warm" My biggest regret is I never even tried it....

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Thanks.

That is probably the route I will take.

If they end up being higher than that should i angle them down just a bit?
You certainly could, but if only the difference of an inch or two, it won't likely make a difference at the distance you will be sitting.

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post #28239 of 28254 Old Yesterday, 07:51 AM
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Speaking of grill covers, hey @Gooddoc , you get some glue to keep those bad boys on your m2's?
Lol, no. It's not like they spontaneously fall off and I never listen loud enough at home to blow them off. It's only a demo issue and I know to take them off first . At Asim's I left them on because I figured it would be funny to have them blow off for dramatic effect .
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post #28240 of 28254 Old Yesterday, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
I will vouch for it. Great great amp for sure. Small footprint. Pretty cool looking too I know his affinity for tubes, so in the Tga-7401, he put a switch on it to basically make the first 5 watts from the main channels sound as if it were a tube amp. It is basically a 5ohm resistor in-line that introduces the distortion one gets from tube amps that makes speakers appear more "warm" My biggest regret is I never even tried it....

^^ Actually beast, it's a 1ohm resistor on the "Current Source" outputs (L&R or LCR depending upon the amp model). I did try it out and found it did very little (as you would expect) but it was a feature. Besides being a very good engineer, Ol Bob was a marketeer.

I owned several Sunfire amps and every one of them did the job. Lot's of power, cool running and dead silent as am amp should be.

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post #28241 of 28254 Old Yesterday, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
^^ Actually beast, it's a 1ohm resistor on the "Current Source" outputs (L&R or LCR depending upon the amp model). I did try it out and found it did very little (as you would expect) but it was a feature. Besides being a very good engineer, Ol Bob was a marketeer.

I owned several Sunfire amps and every one of them did the job. Lot's of power, cool running and dead silent as am amp should be.
My bad....1ohm resistor, up to 5 watts I guess. not 5 and 5.

While you are at it, care to offer up any more opinions on auro vs atmos DSU? Which are you really liking more?

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post #28242 of 28254 Old Yesterday, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
My bad....1ohm resistor, up to 5 watts I guess. not 5 and 5.

While you are at it, care to offer up any more opinions on auro vs atmos DSU? Which are you really liking more?

I spent a good amount of time with both the Auro and Atmos demo disks last night. Even though I positioned my speakers for an Atmos 5.1.4 ceiling mount, both formats work well. Based mostly on the quality of the demo material, Auro-3D makes the the most dramatic and appropriate use of the height channels IMHO. The Tractor demo is the most impressive surround sound demo ever and on the Auro Tractor demo, the ambient sounds and then the tractor moving from behind and then passing on the left is simply amazing.

For music, I really like "Whoop Ass" on the Auro disk and the Enrique Iglesias Music Video, "Bailando" on the Atmos demo disk is just fantastic. Really, I think the object vs 3D channel based approaches taken by Dolby and Auro respectively are both very good and which is better is mainly due to the recording itself. If Auro catches on I'm definitely adding another JBL 8340A as the VOG channel. The JBL's can keep up with the JTR's and the design is perfect for my room's 9' ceiling height. I would love to hear what 4 or 5 Slanted 8's could do but at $5.5K just for the speakers it was a little too risky.
Hindsight, I think it would have been worth it just for the timbre matching alone but again, the JBL's sound very good so no real regrets.

I'm anxious for someone to come and hear what I'm hearing as it is pretty exciting. Perhaps, the biggest difference maker in M/C audio since the intro of surround sound. It's unfortunate that so few will get to experience this outside of a commercial Theater. The intimacy of a Home Theater really allows the formats to shine and they seem to be relatively tolerant of slight speaker position anomalies.

If I sound (pun intended) excited, it's because I am. Of course, this is with the "Sunday Sample" demo disks. I also ran the Scuba Steve Bluray demo and the standard 5.1 and 7.1 lossless audio tracks sound noticeably better with the Auro-matic and DSU upmixing formats. That said, the big win is with source material recorded in the Auro/Atmos formats. I seem to be in the minority but for me, the DM $200 upgrade to Auro is a no-brainer if for nothing more than the ability to play some very cool demo material and, Auro-matic for the rest.
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post #28243 of 28254 Old Yesterday, 09:15 AM
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I spent a good amount of time with both the Auro and Atmos demo disks last night. Even though I positioned my speakers for an Atmos 5.1.4 ceiling mount, both formats work well. Based mostly on the quality of the demo material, Auro-3D makes the the most dramatic and appropriate use of the height channels IMHO. The Tractor demo is the most impressive surround sound demo ever and on the Auro Tractor demo, the ambient sounds and then the tractor moving from behind and then passing on the left is simply amazing.

For music, I really like "Whoop Ass" on the Auro disk and the Enrique Iglesias Music Video, "Bailando" on the Atmos demo disk is just fantastic. Really, I think the object vs 3D channel based approaches taken by Dolby and Auro respectively are both very good and which is better is mainly due to the recording itself. If Auro catches on I'm definitely adding another JBL 8340A as the VOG channel. The JBL's can keep up with the JTR's and the design is perfect for my room's 9' ceiling height. I would love to hear what 4 or 5 Slanted 8's could do but at $5.5K just for the speakers it was a little too risky.
Hindsight, I think it would have been worth it just for the timbre matching alone but again, the JBL's sound very good so no real regrets.

I'm anxious for someone to come and hear what I'm hearing as it is pretty exciting. Perhaps, the biggest difference maker in M/C audio since the intro of surround sound. It's unfortunate that so few will get to experience this outside of a commercial Theater. The intamacy of a Home Theater really allows the formats to shine and they seem to be relatively tolerant of slight speaker positional anomalies.

If I sound (pun intended) excited, it's because I am. Of course, this is with the "Sunday Sample" demo disks. I also ran the Scuba Steve Bluray demo and the standard 5.1 and 7.1 lossless audio tracks sound noticeably better with the Auro-matic and DSU upmixing formats. That said, the big win is with source material recorded in the Auro/Atmos formats. I seem to be in the minority but for me, the DM $200 upgrade to Auro is a no-brainer if for nothing more than the ability to play some very cool demo material and, Auro-matic for the rest.
This is great. Is there an auro demo disc or something you are talking about with the tractor thing on it? I have the atmos demo disc headed my way thanks to a forum member. Currently I only have the two front ceiling speakers installed, as I had enough components laying around that I could build a full coaxial for the fronts, but I need more stuff to get the rears going. I have really liked what I have heard so far from the initial setup I have right now, but one thing became apparent pretty quickly: I have to get my side surrounds down to ear level. Right now they are mounted in a triangular box mounted in the corner of the wall and ceiling, aiming 45 degrees down, but at this point, they are now too close to the front heights, the separation of the channels would much improve the experience I think. The plan is to bust out the wall and get them down to about even with the top of the couch on the front row, so slightly above ear level. Shouldn't be too difficult, but requires build a box into the wall in between the studs, using that space to prevent the box from coming too far out into the room which is already a little too narrow at 12'.

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post #28244 of 28254 Old Yesterday, 09:27 AM
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This is great. Is there an auro demo disc or something you are talking about with the tractor thing on it? I have the atmos demo disc headed my way thanks to a forum member. Currently I only have the two front ceiling speakers installed, as I had enough components laying around that I could build a full coaxial for the fronts, but I need more stuff to get the rears going. I have really liked what I have heard so far from the initial setup I have right now, but one thing became apparent pretty quickly: I have to get my side surrounds down to ear level. Right now they are mounted in a triangular box mounted in the corner of the wall and ceiling, aiming 45 degrees down, but at this point, they are now too close to the front heights, the separation of the channels would much improve the experience I think. The plan is to bust out the wall and get them down to about even with the top of the couch on the front row, so slightly above ear level. Shouldn't be too difficult, but requires build a box into the wall in between the studs, using that space to prevent the box from coming too far out into the room which is already a little too narrow at 12'.
I just emailed Auro, mentioned that I had purchased the upgrade and they Fedex'd it to me fast. Some interesting vids on Youtube re Auro-3D.

Yes, channel separation is key and lower side surrounds is a good thing if you can make it work. I don't think you need to be at ear level as slightly above will work just as well. Mine are maybe 1' above ear level (the coax on the Triple 8-LP's) and I won't be moving them as there is plenty of separation between them and the Heights. Adequate room width and height is helpful and I am lucky that I have enough of both to make it work (to the extent it does ).

Since you are building your own, it is definitely worth a try IMO.

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post #28245 of 28254 Old Yesterday, 10:16 AM
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Yep, that is about what the plan is. The current couch and loveseat have a little higher backs than a normal theater chair, so they will be slightly above that so as to not be impeded by others sitting in the same row. I am getting stoked. I will likely call in for the upgrade this weekend. I gotta get some more dang speakers too!
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post #28246 of 28254 Old Yesterday, 12:37 PM
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I gotta get some more dang speakers too!
MOAR SPEAKERS!!


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I just emailed Auro, mentioned that I had purchased the upgrade and they Fedex'd it to me fast. Some interesting vids on Youtube re Auro-3D.

Yes, channel separation is key and lower side surrounds is a good thing if you can make it work. I don't think you need to be at ear level as slightly above will work just as well. Mine are maybe 1' above ear level (the coax on the Triple 8-LP's) and I won't be moving them as there is plenty of separation between them and the Heights. Adequate room width and height is helpful and I am lucky that I have enough of both to make it work (to the extent it does ).

Since you are building your own, it is definitely worth a try IMO.
So, Rob, how much separation do you have between your T8's and the JBL's? In feet? And do you feel this distance is perfect?


This is one of the things I've been wondering about but can't seem to find any specifics on.

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So, Rob, how much separation do you have between your T8's and the JBL's? In feet? And do you feel this distance is perfect?


This is one of the things I've been wondering about but can't seem to find any specifics on.
My room is aysmetrical and so the surrounds (center of the coax) are approx 4ft below and 8ft and 3ft respectively inboard of the surrounds. No, I don't think the distance is perfect but it is good.

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post #28249 of 28254 Old Yesterday, 08:59 PM
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I will vouch for it. Great great amp for sure. Small footprint. Pretty cool looking too I know his affinity for tubes, so in the Tga-7401, he put a switch on it to basically make the first 5 watts from the main channels sound as if it were a tube amp. It is basically a 5ohm resistor in-line that introduces the distortion one gets from tube amps that makes speakers appear more "warm" My biggest regret is I never even tried it....



You certainly could, but if only the difference of an inch or two, it won't likely make a difference at the distance you will be sitting.
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^^ Actually beast, it's a 1ohm resistor on the "Current Source" outputs (L&R or LCR depending upon the amp model). I did try it out and found it did very little (as you would expect) but it was a feature. Besides being a very good engineer, Ol Bob was a marketeer.

I owned several Sunfire amps and every one of them did the job. Lot's of power, cool running and dead silent as am amp should be.
Did you guys watch the interview with Bob Carver on the Tubes and his challenge?

Although he did explain how he basically made them sound the same by recording the output function and imitating it, he still claims there's some magic to the tubes and he gave one technical example of it... it's got to do with how sound gets reflected back thru the speakers, and back to the tube and then out again... offering some 'echo' and spaciousness of the room which solid state amps do not do... it's very interesting...
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I listened through that section of the video you recommended. It was pretty interesting and I never realized tube amps because of the difference in resistance compared to solid state had that effect from the sound coming back from the room and moving the speaker cones. Pretty cool. I listened through the class D stuff and although I am sure much of the history of class D and many that have implemented it have designs more suited to low frequency amplification, I find the LG runs higher frequencies really well. No difference in objective measurements or subjective listeneing between the LG and my Sunfire until the Sunfire reaches its limits and then the LG walk away from it.

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Wow beautiful, hopefully many sold
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All these talks about Auro and Atmos have whet my appetite... a couple questions.

Do the existing blu-ray players play auro/atmos tracks or do we also need to upgrade those? I know for sure you'll need a new receiver, but what about the 'players'?
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I listened through that section of the video you recommended. It was pretty interesting and I never realized tube amps because of the difference in resistance compared to solid state had that effect from the sound coming back from the room and moving the speaker cones. Pretty cool. I listened through the class D stuff and although I am sure much of the history of class D and many that have implemented it have designs more suited to low frequency amplification, I find the LG runs higher frequencies really well. No difference in objective measurements or subjective listeneing between the LG and my Sunfire until the Sunfire reaches its limits and then the LG walk away from it.
Yeah, I couldn't tell much of a difference if any between my 2000 watts per channel LG clone vs the Onkyo receiver.. in fact, I can't tell a difference between the 3009 vs the 818 Onkyo...

But that's not a real fast A/B switch... involves talking out cables and lots of work getting a new amp set up...

So, in the end, I decided to go with the easiest solution.. ie, a receiver..

But after sitting through an hour of interview with Bob Carver, I understood the 'technical' reasons why different amps may be different... and perhaps our 'brain' is the NOT understood part of the equation... i mean, how much of the 'real difference' does our brain 'ignore' when presented to our 'conscious brain' is another factor to consider. We know our brain can do some really tricky processing all by its own... so, in the end, there IS real differences between different amp designs.. and most people can't tell the difference in an AB test,... taking these 2 into equation, the brain is the missing ingredient here... In fact, i have sometimes tried to up or down the equalizer on the receiver for certain frequencies, maybe even up to 6dB difference, but in an AB comparison i just can't tell the difference if i had the EQ turned on or not... perhaps all the 'unable to tell a difference' is just our 'brain couldn't tell'... not that there isn't any... and we're just started to understand that a the largest by far proponent that does most of the calculations reside in the unconscious part of the brain, it might all end up being in the 'feel' department rather than the 'hear' department... anyways, all just conjectures as i am neither a brain science engineer or a sound engineer... all fun stuff.. and very eye opening...
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All these talks about Auro and Atmos have whet my appetite... a couple questions.

Do the existing blu-ray players play auro/atmos tracks or do we also need to upgrade those? I know for sure you'll need a new receiver, but what about the 'players'?
Just the AVR/prepro...you can keep using your BD player.

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