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Old 03-10-2015, 07:40 PM
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Oh come on, it would look very nice and with a lamp on top, no one would even know it's there ...
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Or, leave it there, bare, in all it's Black Glory... standing like a monument from planet of the apes... at the very it'll serve as a conversation starter... !
Easy now boys That black mammoth isn't for evryone

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If you're going with High Efficiency, high dynamic range speakers for your LCRs, then your Surrounds need to be able to 'match up'...

I'll give you an example... for all these time, I used to have LCR JTR Noesis in my bedroom, but i was too lazy to change out the surrounds I had which were the Wharfedales... the efficiency difference means i can hardly hear anything from my surrounds at all... the Noesis overpowers them...

For cheap, you might want to checkout the Coaxials from DIYsoundgroup... I just bought 4x6 inch coax for my atmos speakers... If I had the money, i'll go all Single 8s (but another 4 would cost me over $5000 which i can't afford).

With these DIY speakers, you can build your box in the shape that you need as long as you keep the internal volume.
I was using some Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000's in transition and also some old JBL XPL 140's. The JBL's were are older speakers and like 86db sensitive I think lol. I went with the DIY Sound Group's Volt 10. It is the exact same design as my Triple 8 LCR and just a couple DB less sensitive. Way cheaper speaker than either of the other two but a much much better experience. The biggest noticeable difference was it seemed the main/surround relation was much better. It was like having only 3 out of 5 NBA starters with the others. The volt 10's may not be all stars but they can hold their own as role players. Especially that Book of Eli Gatling gun.

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Although those are not a great choice for Atmos, they are in fact pretty darn decent on-walls. When I was looking for a set of on-walls for my bedroom, after exhausting weeks of research and 6 separate in home trials, I got a set of the T201's and have been extremely pleased on how good they sound (for on walls of course) The 10" sub that comes with it is actually pretty good to for what it is.

They only have about 95dB's out of them before they compress and sound harsh but they are perfect in my bedroom.
That means a lot coming from you, especially the sub comment

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Old 03-10-2015, 10:03 PM
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Easy now boys That black mammoth isn't for evryone



I was using some Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000's in transition and also some old JBL XPL 140's. The JBL's were are older speakers and like 86db sensitive I think lol. I went with the DIY Sound Group's Volt 10. It is the exact same design as my Triple 8 LCR and just a couple DB less sensitive. Way cheaper speaker than either of the other two but a much much better experience. The biggest noticeable difference was it seemed the main/surround relation was much better. It was like having only 3 out of 5 NBA starters with the others. The volt 10's may not be all stars but they can hold their own as role players. Especially that Book of Eli Gatling gun.



That means a lot coming from you, especially the sub comment
An NBA reference!! Nice

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Old 03-10-2015, 11:03 PM
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Oh come on, it would look very nice and with a lamp on top, no one would even know it's there ...

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Old 03-11-2015, 06:29 AM
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Who says speaker cables don't matter? Hilarious!!!

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Old 03-11-2015, 11:28 AM
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1inch of linacoustic or ductliner, a layer of 3 mil plastic, then a second layer of linacoustic. @ 2 inches total thickness, it will handle all you need for the entire bandwidth down to around 125hz, and hopefully preserve a little for your "midbass" pleasure. A very well known room designer uses this method quite often actually
Thanks.

I was able to source this locally and bought a 100ft roll

Can this just be hung from the wall or does it need to be mounted to the wall with adhesive.

Which side goes against the wall or how are the layers configured? Also where can the plastic be purchased?

Thanks
Ray
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Old 03-12-2015, 11:16 AM
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Thanks.

I was able to source this locally and bought a 100ft roll

Can this just be hung from the wall or does it need to be mounted to the wall with adhesive.

Which side goes against the wall or how are the layers configured? Also where can the plastic be purchased?

Thanks
Ray
I located the studs and popped a screw with washer on it through the material and into the stud to hold it steady. I made each wall's panel separate in my garage and then brought them down and installed them in place. Afterwards, I used loctite spray adhesive very lightly to apply some speaker grill cloth to cover everything. Looks fantastic!

The plastic you can get in the paint section at Lowes or HD
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Old 03-12-2015, 09:59 PM
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Ok, so, i just finally dusted out my Omnimic 2.0... and found... ta da.. my Notebook doesn't have a disc drive anymore... so, how do i install the software? Can I copy out the software from the disc drive into my pc, then copy into the notebook?
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Old 03-13-2015, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Ok, so, i just finally dusted out my Omnimic 2.0... and found... ta da.. my Notebook doesn't have a disc drive anymore... so, how do i install the software? Can I copy out the software from the disc drive into my pc, then copy into the notebook?
Does your notebook connect to the internet? Just download the latest version of the Omnimic software.
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Old 03-13-2015, 06:33 AM
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Does your notebook connect to the internet? Just download the latest version of the Omnimic software.
Ah ok, i will.. thanks..

btw: is there a page where ppl show their room's frequency response charts? I want to know what's normal and what's not?

Also, i have successfully installed the software that came with the product... now, not sure what i need to measure and what to look out for...
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:35 AM
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Here's something.. I finally got to watch a movie on my system since I've been working a lot. But for awhile now, since my mains are set to full range. I had my sub setting on the AVR to no for subs. And just been running like that since. But recently I rewatced Oblivion last week. And finally for the first time got to watch John Wick. Man, the overall sound mix was amazing. Lots of bass too.Then when the movie was done, and the credits started to roll. I went to go feel how much the cones on the S2's was moving. And I got scared for a little while because they weren't. Then I remembered what I did on my receiver before. I couldn't believe it. I've recently watched this 2 movies just from the 215's only. Thinking I had the full speaker and sub system running. Well, now that the first run was with the 215's only, hopefull this Sunday im gonna give JW a spin again this time with the S2's on. And keep the mains at full.. But I still can't believe how much bass the 215's put out on their own..

Buying speakers with 30hz capability is fine for most (but not all) music but when you hear a true full range speaker, setup properly, it is a memorable experience. Of course, you can create a similar or even preferable experience by using a good high efficiency LCR speaker setup (Noesis, Catalyst, Danley and others) plus well integrated subs, but after living with the 215RT LCR's for a while now I can't ever see going back to non-full range speakers. And since no one else seems willing or able to make an affordable speaker that can do full range, the 215RT remain a unique option for HT and music based systems.

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Old 03-14-2015, 02:07 AM
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Ok, so, i just finally dusted out my Omnimic 2.0... and found... ta da.. my Notebook doesn't have a disc drive anymore... so, how do i install the software? Can I copy out the software from the disc drive into my pc, then copy into the notebook?
Create an iso backup of the cd on your pc. Store in the laptop. Using dvdfab virtual drive, load it on the laptop. should work fine.

edit - sorry didnt read earlier that you got it sorted.

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Old 03-14-2015, 04:25 AM
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Create an iso backup of the cd on your pc. Store in the laptop. Using dvdfab virtual drive, load it on the laptop. should work fine.

edit - sorry didnt read earlier that you got it sorted.
Thanks for the input anyways... i just copied the files over to my notebook and it installs ok from there... so, no issue..
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Old 03-14-2015, 04:31 AM
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Ok, now that i have the Dayton Audio omnimic and software... what do i do and look out for?

Here's what I am thinking..

1. Look at the freq resp graph when everything is silent.. basically see how quiet the room is..

- Results, for freq 500hz and up, it's below 20dB... but it starts to go up below 500hz to about 40dB... i wonder if the 'mic' has a problem, because in the room it's dead silent to me... it's the quietest place i have been to... in fact, it's so eerily quiet that i wonder if i am hearing my own brain think... so, can someone confirm that what i see on the graph is accurate or that my mic is completely off??? The reason i asked is it's strange that below 500hz, it's up by 20dB... at 40 dB you would think you're hearing a lot of stuff...

2. Is the dayton audio mic even accurate down low in the bass dept? I see my chart pretty good down to like 5hz (which is impossible)...

3. What is a good bass decay chart look like? or, in fact, how is a good freq resp chart looks like... where do i see examples of you guy's rooms? When you measure your freq response, do you use all 7.1 speakers on?

Basically, i have the software/measuring device ,not sure what to measure... and look out for... and how to compare it to what??

ps: I have thus far done everything by 'ear'.... what i like, what i don't like, adjust as appropriate.. first measurement of the freq resp, i found the chart pretty smooth down to 20hz.. looks like our own 'ear' is a pretty good instrument itself!
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Old 03-14-2015, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
Ok, now that i have the Dayton Audio omnimic and software... what do i do and look out for?

Here's what I am thinking..

1. Look at the freq resp graph when everything is silent.. basically see how quiet the room is..

- Results, for freq 500hz and up, it's below 20dB... but it starts to go up below 500hz to about 40dB... i wonder if the 'mic' has a problem, because in the room it's dead silent to me... it's the quietest place i have been to... in fact, it's so eerily quiet that i wonder if i am hearing my own brain think... so, can someone confirm that what i see on the graph is accurate or that my mic is completely off??? The reason i asked is it's strange that below 500hz, it's up by 20dB... at 40 dB you would think you're hearing a lot of stuff...

2. Is the dayton audio mic even accurate down low in the bass dept? I see my chart pretty good down to like 5hz (which is impossible)...

3. What is a good bass decay chart look like? or, in fact, how is a good freq resp chart looks like... where do i see examples of you guy's rooms? When you measure your freq response, do you use all 7.1 speakers on?

Basically, i have the software/measuring device ,not sure what to measure... and look out for... and how to compare it to what??

ps: I have thus far done everything by 'ear'.... what i like, what i don't like, adjust as appropriate.. first measurement of the freq resp, i found the chart pretty smooth down to 20hz.. looks like our own 'ear' is a pretty good instrument itself!
40db noise floor is about the most you can expect out of a USB mic. I have a phantom power mic that can go lower (EMM-6 + Q502USB), but to go really low, you need a more expensive "type 1" mic.
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Old 03-14-2015, 09:26 AM
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40db noise floor is about the most you can expect out of a USB mic. I have a phantom power mic that can go lower (EMM-6 + Q502USB), but to go really low, you need a more expensive "type 1" mic.
Oh, ok, so, there's no use measuring my noise floor then?

Also, how high does the mike I have go in terms of dB? Does it go to 120dB? or, 100 dB? basically what would be the accurate range of the omnimic from Dayton audio? also, what range in frequency? Should i ignore everything under 20hz, 15 hz? etc?
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Old 03-14-2015, 09:52 AM
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Oh, ok, so, there's no use measuring my noise floor then?

Also, how high does the mike I have go in terms of dB? Does it go to 120dB? or, 100 dB? basically what would be the accurate range of the omnimic from Dayton audio? also, what range in frequency? Should i ignore everything under 20hz, 15 hz? etc?
I always assumed they were okay up to clipping, but I don't really know.
I would expect the frequency response to be accurate within the range of the calibration file.
For corrected frequencies where the mic is less sensitive, I think the main issue is that you lose SNR.
For example, if the mic is -10db at 15z, the noise will have to get boosted by 10db, along with the rest.

Does Dayton specify this stuff anywhere?
With Cross Spectrum, I see that they will provide the measured noise floor of the mic with a deluxe calibration.
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Old 03-14-2015, 10:22 AM
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Oh, ok, so, there's no use measuring my noise floor then?

Also, how high does the mike I have go in terms of dB? Does it go to 120dB? or, 100 dB? basically what would be the accurate range of the omnimic from Dayton audio? also, what range in frequency? Should i ignore everything under 20hz, 15 hz? etc?
Noise floor is what it is ... . That ^ (bold) is irrelevant but it is probably accurate into the 120's. You should just take some frequency response sweeps from the main LP and see what you have. Point the mic at the ceiling and keep it above reflective chair seat backs (recline them). AFAIR the Frequency Response Sweeps are Track 2 on the Omnimic test disk.

Here is a Omnimic FR measurement taken by desertdome at the 2014 215RT GTG.
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Old 03-14-2015, 12:01 PM
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CG,

RMK! is right, track two on the disc is the stereo sweep, tracks 6 and 12 are the left and right short sine sweeps. Those are what you want to use to really see what is going on between your two main speakers. Track two is ok, but you might see comb filtering between the two speakers, so I always use the 6 and 12 tracks for looking into my responses. Do you have the OM DVD as well? That lets you run sweeps on a full 5.1 system....I really wish it was 7.1 but oh well.

If you have the v2 omnimic, it should be good down to below where your OS will already be dropping off for sure. The calibrated mics you can get from spectrum are typically good down to 5hz. The OM is fine to around 10hz.

AFA what to look for. Pay good attention to the impulse resonse below the Freq response window to see how good your room treatments are and if you are getting any bad reflections. You should see a good blip at 1ms with a little correction as it comes back, then the line should be flat from there on out. If you see any major issues past 2ms, you need to diffuse or absorb a reflection of some sort. The Freq response, this is entirely personal preference but I like a response that slowly slopes down from 10hz all the way up to 20khz, at around a 10dB total slope. This naturally sounds the best to my ears, and many others.

Other folks tend to like the audyssey target curve which is basically a dead flat line across the entire FR. Harman did a study that showed this in fact was not preferred by most, but if there are drastic issues in the room, flat can very well sound better than a garbled all-over-the-place response.

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Old 03-14-2015, 12:03 PM
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I always assumed they were okay up to clipping, but I don't really know.
I would expect the frequency response to be accurate within the range of the calibration file.
For corrected frequencies where the mic is less sensitive, I think the main issue is that you lose SNR.
For example, if the mic is -10db at 15z, the noise will have to get boosted by 10db, along with the rest.

Does Dayton specify this stuff anywhere?
With Cross Spectrum, I see that they will provide the measured noise floor of the mic with a deluxe calibration.
I have not seen Dayton specify anything anywhere. If anyone have the right information, I would love to know it. For example, this list of info is important:

1. SPL range that is accurate (ie, from lowest to highest).
2. Frequency range that is accurate, say from 10, 15 or 20hz up? till where?


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Noise floor is what it is ... . That ^ (bold) is irrelevant but it is probably accurate into the 120's. You should just take some frequency response sweeps from the main LP and see what you have. Point the mic at the ceiling and keep it above reflective chair seat backs (recline them). AFAIR the Frequency Response Sweeps are Track 2 on the Omnimic test disk.

Here is a Omnimic FR measurement taken by desertdome at the 2014 215RT GTG.
I know the noise floor is what it is.. but still would be nice to know exactly what my room's noise floor is

Thanks for the information RMK! So, follow up questions, why point the mic up? I would never have thought of that, for instance.. shouldn't i point it at the front? like how we are seating and looking at the front?

The example sweep you provided, what sort of smoothing is that? 1/12? 1/24? this is another confusing variable, what sort of variables should i set in the software?

And last but not least, what is a good bass decay rate? does anyone have a good example of a graph by omnimic?

Maybe someone ought to create a thread on 'freq resp' charts for their respective rooms so that ppl can compare and learn...
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Old 03-14-2015, 12:12 PM
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CG,

RMK! is right, track two on the disc is the stereo sweep, tracks 6 and 12 are the left and right short sine sweeps. Those are what you want to use to really see what is going on between your two main speakers. Track two is ok, but you might see comb filtering between the two speakers, so I always use the 6 and 12 tracks for looking into my responses. Do you have the OM DVD as well? That lets you run sweeps on a full 5.1 system....I really wish it was 7.1 but oh well.

If you have the v2 omnimic, it should be good down to below where your OS will already be dropping off for sure. The calibrated mics you can get from spectrum are typically good down to 5hz. The OM is fine to around 10hz.

AFA what to look for. Pay good attention to the impulse resonse below the Freq response window to see how good your room treatments are and if you are getting any bad reflections. You should see a good blip at 1ms with a little correction as it comes back, then the line should be flat from there on out. If you see any major issues past 2ms, you need to diffuse or absorb a reflection of some sort. The Freq response, this is entirely personal preference but I like a response that slowly slopes down from 10hz all the way up to 20khz, at around a 10dB total slope. This naturally sounds the best to my ears, and many others.

Other folks tend to like the audyssey target curve which is basically a dead flat line across the entire FR. Harman did a study that showed this in fact was not preferred by most, but if there are drastic issues in the room, flat can very well sound better than a garbled all-over-the-place response.
Beast, thanks for the info.. very helpful indeed... but some of them are confusing:

1. What do you mean let's you sweep for 5.1? I am assuming it was sweeping for all my speakers in place.. i set my AVR to 7.1, so all speakers are blasting away.. I have the v2 and their dvd that comes with the soundtracks. Even if the tracks are stereo, or mono, wouldn't the avr up-mix it to all channels? I am using a DSP mode like THX Theater. Are you saying I should switch the mode on my avr to stereo?

2. What's an impulse response? I never understood that... the only thing i knew what was going on in the software is the 'freq resp' and the 'bass decay' tabs... the rest is a bit blur to me.. what they are used for and how to read them...

3. As for audyssey.. i totally hate that curve.. i have used audyssey, and have decided it's not for me.. thus, my personally setting up the speaker by EAR first... right now, i wan to see what it is that i like, and see if there's anything else to squeeze out of in terms of getting the best out of my system.

4. Last question, what volume do you guys do the sweep at? And what is reference? is it 75dB or 85dB?
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Old 03-14-2015, 02:48 PM
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Beast, thanks for the info.. very helpful indeed... but some of them are confusing:

1. What do you mean let's you sweep for 5.1? I am assuming it was sweeping for all my speakers in place.. i set my AVR to 7.1, so all speakers are blasting away.. I have the v2 and their dvd that comes with the soundtracks. Even if the tracks are stereo, or mono, wouldn't the avr up-mix it to all channels? I am using a DSP mode like THX Theater. Are you saying I should switch the mode on my avr to stereo?

The Dvd allows for you to select all 5.1 channels to run sweeps. The v1 omnimic would only do stereo, so just your left and right. I typically run the fronts with my AVR set to stereo if just using the 2 channel CD, and on Dolby DSU upmixing for the 5.1 dvd. When running sweeps, you really want just a single speaker making noise, and with the DVD, that is exactly what you get my selecting which specific speaker you want to see. For 7.1, I have taken sweeps by switching out the inputs for side surround and putting it to the rears just to get a base-line, but that is getting a little technical as the distance and trim levels are obviously off since you are using the side surround's info, but on the rears. Another important thing is to remember to switch em back I have forgotten that before.....

2. What's an impulse response? I never understood that... the only thing i knew what was going on in the software is the 'freq resp' and the 'bass decay' tabs... the rest is a bit blur to me.. what they are used for and how to read them...

Under the Freq response tab's main window where you see the full 5hz-20khz response, there is a little black and Red squiggly line. That is your impulse response. OM takes this the same time you are running normal sweeps. You want the initial blip to spike, settle, and then stay smooth all the way out. If there is another smaller spike past the 1ms initial blip, you have a reflection somewhere (side wall, ceiling etc.) making the sound arrive at the mic more than once. These reflection will need to be tamed and you will see a better impulse response at that point.

3. As for audyssey.. i totally hate that curve.. i have used audyssey, and have decided it's not for me.. thus, my personally setting up the speaker by EAR first... right now, i wan to see what it is that i like, and see if there's anything else to squeeze out of in terms of getting the best out of my system.

I like you style there. I have been getting back into Audyssey a little bit lately, but I was running clean, absolutely NO eq other than the room treatment method and good speaker placement/toe-in and such for quite some time.

4. Last question, what volume do you guys do the sweep at? And what is reference? is it 75dB or 85dB?
Information answered above for 1-3. for question 4, I typically run sweeps at -10 ref on the master volume.

Check out my thread in my signature the "master measurement thread" to see some more good info. I update it every once in a while when I make any major change, but I have waterfalls, different methods of sweeping and such in there Cheers! and have fun!
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Old 03-15-2015, 09:15 AM
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I have not seen Dayton specify anything anywhere. If anyone have the right information, I would love to know it. For example, this list of info is important:

1. SPL range that is accurate (ie, from lowest to highest).
2. Frequency range that is accurate, say from 10, 15 or 20hz up? till where?




I know the noise floor is what it is.. but still would be nice to know exactly what my room's noise floor is

Thanks for the information RMK! So, follow up questions, why point the mic up? I would never have thought of that, for instance.. shouldn't i point it at the front? like how we are seating and looking at the front?

Because that is the consensus on the way to measure. If for example the R&L are playing the test signal, where should you aim the mic?

The example sweep you provided, what sort of smoothing is that? 1/12? 1/24? this is another confusing variable, what sort of variables should i set in the software?

Quote:
That measurement was taken 1/12th and that is generally the recommended level
And last but not least, what is a good bass decay rate? does anyone have a good example of a graph by omnimic?

Maybe someone ought to create a thread on 'freq resp' charts for their respective rooms so that ppl can compare and learn...
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Appropriate ... there is no specific rate except fast when necessary with no overhang or ringing. Some LFE sounds require some extension and others need to stop on a dime depending upon the effect. It's all about getting it to sound appropriate (not easy with those long waves )
As always, Beast provided some good tips. Have fun with it but don't get to hung up on the numbers. In the end, it's all about what you hear/like (but you know that ).

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Old 03-15-2015, 09:47 AM
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Hopefully someone in Florida can take advantage of this!
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Old 03-15-2015, 09:50 AM
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Information answered above for 1-3. for question 4, I typically run sweeps at -10 ref on the master volume.

Check out my thread in my signature the "master measurement thread" to see some more good info. I update it every once in a while when I make any major change, but I have waterfalls, different methods of sweeping and such in there Cheers! and have fun!
Beast,

Thanks... that's very helpful indeed... i guess it's time to go play around a bit...

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As always, Beast provided some good tips. Have fun with it but don't get to hung up on the numbers. In the end, it's all about what you hear/like (but you know that ).
Right as always!!

I am pretty old school... (code word for non-techie)

So, up to this point, it's all been done without Auto-EQ, or looking at numbers... I am almost 100% satisfied right now. In fact, the sound has far exceeded my own expectations... so, pretty happy.

However, since I have the Omnimic, I am curious to see what sort of graph that I ended up with, and if I can even fine tune it further... this will take a lot of playing around I think... but it's all fun!
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Old 03-15-2015, 10:57 AM
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Hopefully someone in Florida can take advantage of this!
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Old 03-16-2015, 01:23 AM
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Where is the amp mounted on the S2?
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Old 03-16-2015, 02:26 AM
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Where is the amp mounted on the S2?
Probably at the back same as the S1. Could not find an image for the S2.


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Old 03-16-2015, 06:57 AM
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Old 03-16-2015, 08:01 AM
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Ok, now that i have the Dayton Audio omnimic and software... what do i do and look out for?

Here's what I am thinking..

1. Look at the freq resp graph when everything is silent.. basically see how quiet the room is..
The Frequency Response tab can only be used with Omnimic sweeps. The noise shown when no sweeps are playing isn't accurately indicative of the noise floor. When nothing is playing, you need to use the SPL/Spectrum tab to see the actual noise floor. However, the Omnimic self noise swamps any attempts at seeing the actual noise floor except in the bass region. My Earthworks M30BX has a noise floor of 22 dB and is better suited for noise floor measurements. For a noise rating or noise criteria measurement of the background noise, you need to use ARTA with a low noise microphone (see page 150ff in the manual). NC20 (noise criteria 20) is the recommended level by some home theater designers. Here is a chart showing that NC20 still allows for a noise floor of over 50 dB at 63 Hz.



Quote:
So, follow up questions, why point the mic up? I would never have thought of that, for instance.. shouldn't i point it at the front? like how we are seating and looking at the front?
You point the microphone at the speakers if using the default calibration file. If pointing the microphone up you need to manually make a calibration adjustment based off the rolloff shown in the manual.



Regarding measuring for 7.1, I always use track 6 (Left Channel, Short Sine Sweep) and the Order Channels feature in JRiver to quickly move the track through all speakers to take measurements. It only takes a minute to measure all the channels. If measuring with a receiver in the signal path I just use the HDMI output from the laptop into the receiver and still playback through JRiver.
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Old 03-16-2015, 08:22 AM
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