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post #28441 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
To my knowledge, you are absolutely the first and only person that is getting 20hz out of a pair of noesis, LP or not. I honestly don't know anyone running them full range that can get even close to that. Kudos for you tho. The stars have seemingly aligned just right in your new room. Be careful on movies tho....
I have a BASS test CD, and dang, when playing the Noesis full range, those Woofers were really moving like crazy... i was scared! Quickly turned off full range, and let the subs take over...
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post #28442 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
The specs for the 212HT-LP are for when using them fullrange. If you are getting room gain with them and not boosting the low end, then they are good up to 2000 watts each.
So what are we saying here? The rated specs for the LP's are 80hz-24khz but because of his concrete room they are "behaving" like a full range (20-20) speaker?

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post #28443 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
I have a BASS test CD, and dang, when playing the Noesis full range, those Woofers were really moving like crazy... i was scared! Quickly turned off full range, and let the subs take over...
Just remember too, those drivers are only rated for 8mm excursion, 16mm p2p. That's a little over 1/4" of max excursion before distortion will be dominant.

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post #28444 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
So what are we saying here? The rated specs for the LP's are 80hz-24khz but because of his concrete room they are "behaving" like a full range (20-20) speaker?
It's down 3dB at 80hz.. it'll play down low, but will keep losing SPLs as it go lower.. however, it seems in my concrete bunker, which really boost the lower frequencies, some by over 30dB... and that allows the Noesis to play down to 20 hz with flat.. (see my freq resp graph)...

The gain in this room is crazy!! When playing some concert videos, i can hit above 140dB at 20hz... (peak)...

(BTW: I am using the OS at -12dB now... there's going to be little chance of my maximising the output of the OS.. it's going to be walking in the park for it from now on... ).

To illustrate how powerful 'room gains' can be for low bass, take a look at this video i took at Ankor Watt... btw: You can only hear what I am talking about if you download it and play it on your super subwoofer capable of deep bass...

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post #28445 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Just remember too, those drivers are only rated for 8mm excursion, 16mm p2p. That's a little over 1/4" of max excursion before distortion will be dominant.
Jeff rates them at 2000 watts.. my receiver is only capable of 150 watts per channel.. so, no way i will max out the excursion... i won't have the power...

It's not really playing the 'bass' at high SPLs.. the bass notes are probably down by quite a bit, but the room gain is the one increasing it back up...
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post #28446 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 01:41 PM
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Thats crazy coolgeek. In my room, after 80hz they dropped like a rock off a bridge. I can't imagine them having that much output that low since the woofers are just that woofers, not subwoofers. I'm not saying you're full of it or anything, just that it's a one of a kind situation for sure. With mine, running full range, even with 2000 watts, the results were.... umm terrible pretty much LOL

Your situation is what lots of guys would dream of of sure! Awsoeme man! I wish I could hear it for myself for sure!

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post #28447 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post
It's down 3dB at 80hz.. it'll play down low, but will keep losing SPLs as it go lower.. however, it seems in my concrete bunker, which really boost the lower frequencies, some by over 30dB... and that allows the Noesis to play down to 20 hz with flat.. (see my freq resp graph)...

The gain in this room is crazy!! When playing some concert videos, i can hit above 140dB at 20hz... (peak)...

(BTW: I am using the OS at -12dB now... there's going to be little chance of my maximising the output of the OS.. it's going to be walking in the park for it from now on... ).

To illustrate how powerful 'room gains' can be for low bass, take a look at this video i took at Ankor Watt... btw: You can only hear what I am talking about if you download it and play it on your super subwoofer capable of deep bass...
Thank you CG...just wanted to make sure I understood what was being said. I also have Omnimic and I'm going to have to start playing with it to see what my room does to the sound. I did see your graph and it looks good and I'm amazed how your room has such a positive impact on the sound....it typically doesn't.

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post #28448 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 01:48 PM
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So.. @dgage ...you no longer have to lament the fact your LP's have no midbass...CG has figured out the answer for you.
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post #28449 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Nabs17 View Post
So.. @dgage ...you no longer have to lament the fact your LP's have no midbass...CG has figured out the answer for you.
Haha. Funny you bring that up because I'm actually designing my 15" midbass modules in Sketchup as I type this. I considered having my kids dig the basement deeper but my 11 year olds didn't seem up to it. So midbass modules with JBL 2225H drivers it is.
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post #28450 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Thats crazy coolgeek. In my room, after 80hz they dropped like a rock off a bridge. I can't imagine them having that much output that low since the woofers are just that woofers, not subwoofers. I'm not saying you're full of it or anything, just that it's a one of a kind situation for sure. With mine, running full range, even with 2000 watts, the results were.... umm terrible pretty much LOL

Your situation is what lots of guys would dream of of sure! Awsoeme man! I wish I could hear it for myself for sure!
After trying and trying and trying...I gave up trying to get decent midbass from my sealed 212s. After having heard the 212s in multiple rooms, it continues to reinforce how much I like the midrange and upper end on the 212s...but the midbass, uh no. Wish I would have known to purchase the ported 212s. But adding the JBL 2225H midbasses should take care of those issues...just wish I didn't need the additional expense and complication.
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post #28451 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 02:25 PM
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Here is a frequency response in the same room of the following:
JTR Speakers S2 (Blue)
Acoustic Elegance PB18H+ (Red)
JTR Speakers 212HT-LP (Green)

By 20 Hz, the 212HT-LP's are down by 30 dB over the S2's.
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post #28452 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Here is a frequency response in the same room of the following:
JTR Speakers S2 (Blue)
Acoustic Elegance PB18H+ (Red)
JTR Speakers 212HT-LP (Green)

By 20 Hz, the 212HT-LP's are down by 30 dB over the S2's.
I'm assuming that is dlbeck's room so the sealed 212s were in a baffle? He's got one heck of a system.
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post #28453 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 04:23 PM
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...I'm actually designing my 15" midbass modules in Sketchup as I type this...
I'm having 10 tons of concrete poured as I type this... ;-P
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post #28454 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Thats crazy coolgeek. In my room, after 80hz they dropped like a rock off a bridge. I can't imagine them having that much output that low since the woofers are just that woofers, not subwoofers. I'm not saying you're full of it or anything, just that it's a one of a kind situation for sure. With mine, running full range, even with 2000 watts, the results were.... umm terrible pretty much LOL

Your situation is what lots of guys would dream of of sure! Awsoeme man! I wish I could hear it for myself for sure!
You could coincide your next vacation in Asia... lots of sights, sounds, and colors to explore here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
Here is a frequency response in the same room of the following:
JTR Speakers S2 (Blue)
Acoustic Elegance PB18H+ (Red)
JTR Speakers 212HT-LP (Green)

By 20 Hz, the 212HT-LP's are down by 30 dB over the S2's.
Thanks for the charts DesertDome...

This really explains why I am getting the straight curve with my 212s... it looks like it's gently sloping down, and my room compensates almost exactly.. the lower the frequencies the more gain.. i am recording over 30-35dB bump by 20hz... (I have a huge bump at 23hz and 45hz, which i had to drag down by eq).

Also, the 63hz dip explains why i am also getting a dip right there... I boosted my 63hz by 6dB...

Boy, I am so stoked that I got myself a full range speaker... stoked indeed... and grinning from cheek to cheek.. can't wait to play more music on em... I think I have suddenly discovered what Hi-Fi is all about...

ps: When I first moved my speakers into the basement, and turned it on, my first impression (even at low volumes, ie, -30 on the receiver), was that there were tons of room modes.. because the bass was drowning out everything... I was really disappointed with the room and panic-ed.. cause i did not know what to make of it... then i placed the HSU subs at the back, and suddenly it tamed everything down... i was happy with that arrangement for a week or so.. until i got the omnimic installed and did some freq resp sweeps... i noticed that the from 100hz down, i had tons of gain... (with a couple of huge bumps, at 23hz and 45 hz, something like a 20-25dB hump and a dip at about 63hz)... after messing with eq, sub placements, turning off this and that... and using just one set of subs over another... i finally found that using both the OS and my HSU pair actually cancelled out each other, ie, lowering the bass effectively... or smoothing it out a bit.. that's why I felt it solved my room modes issue.. but the charts showed a different story.. sure i have room modes at 23, 45 hz, the entire bass region was boosted, the lower it gets the higher the boost.. in fact, i am pretty much flat to 6hz (if the mic is to be trusted)... it curves up from 100hz and then down to 6hz... with 6hz about the same level as the rest of my freq>100hz... so, basically to achieve bass down to the single digits, i did not need the 20x18inch subs... a single OS did the trick...

So, now, after playing all day and night, i knew what it was... the entire concrete bunker is acting like a amplifying chamber of sorts... in fact, the front end of my concrete bunker is about 10 feet wide and goes to about 14 feet wide at the back.. so, maybe that has something to do with it as well.. i am thinking it looks like a horn... anyways, those are all my personal conjectures.. smarter ppl need to figure out what's happening... i am just happy now i know what's happening and i know how to make use of what i got instead of being in the dark.. measuring rules!!
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post #28455 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Haha. Funny you bring that up because I'm actually designing my 15" midbass modules in Sketchup as I type this. I considered having my kids dig the basement deeper but my 11 year olds didn't seem up to it. So midbass modules with JBL 2225H drivers it is.
12 year's a slave... so, get your kid to dig another year... !!!

I am sure you're gonna be very happy once you get the mid bass modules done... the 212s are really great sounding speakers... i am loving them more and more each day...
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post #28456 of 30073 Old 03-19-2015, 09:55 PM
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I'm having 10 tons of concrete poured as I type this... ;-P
The 'geek' part of me is coming out to play...

Let's see, 10 tons (= 10,000 kg), means you're only getting about 4 cubic meters of concrete (1 m^3 = 2.5 tons)... looks like all you're gonna be building is a giant subwoofer box...

I think i used about 30-35 m^3 of concrete, which translate to 75-85 tons of concrete!!!!

*slow day*
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post #28457 of 30073 Old 03-20-2015, 03:49 AM
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I'm having 10 tons of concrete poured as I type this... ;-P
I went with 20 tons...I want my computer speakers to hit single digits HZ at 130+ DB
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post #28458 of 30073 Old 03-20-2015, 05:30 AM
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Can someone comment on the difference between the 2015 version of the 212HTs and the prior years? When I spoke with Jeff yesterday he mentioned a better horn as well as an improvement in the drivers. Is there going to be a difference in the sound quality? what kind of difference?
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post #28459 of 30073 Old 03-20-2015, 06:34 AM
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Can someone comment on the difference between the 2015 version of the 212HTs and the prior years? When I spoke with Jeff yesterday he mentioned a better horn as well as an improvement in the drivers. Is there going to be a difference in the sound quality? what kind of difference?
No one has reported 'hearing' a difference. Also, this was recently asked a few pages back with specific physical differences discussed as well.

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post #28460 of 30073 Old 03-20-2015, 07:28 AM
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Coolgeeks experience with his concrete bunker mirror my own. My room is 24' l x 20' w x 7'6" h with the only opening being the doorway middle of room on a side wall. A pair of SubM HPs with the T12HT and now 212HT produce overwhelming amounts of good quality low/mid bass.

I have my room apart right now and am waiting on the 3rd 212HT to arrive. I should have it all back together in a few weeks so I will take some measurements to see what the room actually adds.

I am also interested in the measured difference between the '12 T12HT vs '15 212HT to see what this "improved midbass" is about.

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post #28461 of 30073 Old 03-20-2015, 11:06 AM
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Cool

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Coolgeeks experience with his concrete bunker mirror my own. My room is 24' l x 20' w x 7'6" h with the only opening being the doorway middle of room on a side wall. A pair of SubM HPs with the T12HT and now 212HT produce overwhelming amounts of good quality low/mid bass.

I have my room apart right now and am waiting on the 3rd 212HT to arrive. I should have it all back together in a few weeks so I will take some measurements to see what the room actually adds.

I am also interested in the measured difference between the '12 T12HT vs '15 212HT to see what this "improved midbass" is about.
It's good to have a testament to the positive effect the room can have on speakers. More often than not, it goes the other way.
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post #28462 of 30073 Old 03-20-2015, 11:14 AM
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Fellas, I took a little time to measure my lcr (T8-LP's) and sub this past weekend, but now I'm not sure where to go from here. My sub seems to be alright (granted this is with a ls filter applied at 20hz), but I'm not sure what treatments eq I should use for my lcr. I suspect a 100hz xover is the best I can reasonably expect. Graphs of my FL, FR, CTR and sub are attached. Any suggestions would really be appreciated.


Edit: Sorry, I should have added that the sweeps were run full range on the LCR. Normally, I would have them set to small and set the xover at 100hz.
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post #28463 of 30073 Old 03-20-2015, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post
Fellas, I took a little time to measure my lcr (T8-LP's) and sub this past weekend, but now I'm not sure where to go from here. My sub seems to be alright (granted this is with a ls filter applied at 20hz), but I'm not sure what treatments eq I should use for my lcr. I suspect a 100hz xover is the best I can reasonably expect. Graphs of my FL, FR, CTR and sub are attached. Any suggestions would really be appreciated.
What is your crossover frequency?
Are you running your LCRs as small?
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post #28464 of 30073 Old 03-20-2015, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by cmryan821 View Post
Fellas, I took a little time to measure my lcr (T8-LP's) and sub this past weekend, but now I'm not sure where to go from here. My sub seems to be alright (granted this is with a ls filter applied at 20hz), but I'm not sure what treatments eq I should use for my lcr. I suspect a 100hz xover is the best I can reasonably expect. Graphs of my FL, FR, CTR and sub are attached. Any suggestions would really be appreciated.
Work a few sweeps with the sub and mains together. Mess with the distance setting on your AVR for the sub while sweeping and see if it improves the response at the crossover point.

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post #28465 of 30073 Old 03-20-2015, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
What is your crossover frequency?
Are you running your LCRs as small?
For the test sweep I ran them full range. Normally, I have them set to small and the xover set to 100hz.
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post #28466 of 30073 Old 03-20-2015, 11:49 AM
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For the test sweep I ran them full range. Normally, I have them set to small and the xover set to 100hz.
Like Beast was saying, first step is to fiddle with the crossover point and delays to optimize response around the crossover (most output, least dips). From there, play with the sub gain to get the sound that you want.
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post #28467 of 30073 Old 03-20-2015, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Like Beast was saying, first step is to fiddle with the crossover point and delays to optimize response around the crossover (most output, least dips). From there, play with the sub gain to get the sound that you want.
Great suggestions... looks like i am going to be spending even more time now measuring...

BTW: Do you guys do all LCR together, or one speaker at a time?
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post #28468 of 30073 Old 03-21-2015, 09:47 AM
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One speaker at a time. Always. I don't think there is way to do all three at the same time anyways. With track two, it will sweep the Left and right together, but not the center, when in stereo, or you can change the format to pLIIx and it will sweep the center only, but never all three.

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post #28469 of 30073 Old 03-21-2015, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
One speaker at a time. Always. I don't think there is way to do all three at the same time anyways. With track two, it will sweep the Left and right together, but not the center, when in stereo, or you can change the format to pLIIx and it will sweep the center only, but never all three.

Thanks for this answer beast because I have an Omnimic and wasn't aware of a way to sweep all 3....so it's good to know I wasn't missing something.

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post #28470 of 30073 Old 03-21-2015, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
One speaker at a time. Always. I don't think there is way to do all three at the same time anyways. With track two, it will sweep the Left and right together, but not the center, when in stereo, or you can change the format to pLIIx and it will sweep the center only, but never all three.
Oh ok.. thanks.. i wasn't aware that track 2 was only sweeping LR, I thought the sound came from all 3 channels...
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