Official JTR speaker thread - Page 973 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #29161 of 29186 Old 05-02-2015, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
As usual you make some very good points RC. I will look at the 2channel PC version of Dirac demo download for my HTPC. Will my USB Omnimic mic work with Dirac?
The trial version actually is the 8 channel version (typically configured for 7.1), although it also works fine for 2 channels. 8 channels is just the maximum that is allowed.

Yes, you can use the Omnimic, although my understanding is that the Omnimic only comes with a 0 degree calibration file.

For stereo, you can either point it between the LRs, or point it up, since Dirac won't let you aim it at individual speakers.
Pointing it between the LRs will show a slight treble rolloff.
Pointing it up gives you a consistent reading for all speakers (LCR & surround), but it will show even more treble rolloff.

That doesn't create a real problem. You just have to keep in mind that the treble rolloff you see is due to the correction file vs. measurement angle, and don't try to boost it back to flat. That would sound terrible. Instead, start by following the overall treble curve from the measurement (including rolloff). That will still fix phase, early reflections, and frequency response irregularities without altering the overall frequency response. From there, you can experiment with altering the target curve, and decide whether you like the changes.

It's a little easier to work with a 90 degree measurement file and a mic set to 90 degrees. In that case, what you see is what you get. I'd also recommend using a cheap boom mic stand, if you don't already have one.

So, you could spend $100 on a new mic + a boom mic stand, or you could fiddle with the demo using an Omnimic first, then spring for the mic & stand if you see some promise.

As we've discussed before, though, you are kind of screwed when it comes to 3D audio, and that is no small deal for a long term solution. For experimenting with the free demo, though, not such a big deal. Eventually, I understand there will be more 3d audio options available.
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post #29162 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
The trial version actually is the 8 channel version (typically configured for 7.1), although it also works fine for 2 channels. 8 channels is just the maximum that is allowed.

Yes, you can use the Omnimic, although my understanding is that the Omnimic only comes with a 0 degree calibration file.

For stereo, you can either point it between the LRs, or point it up, since Dirac won't let you aim it at individual speakers.
Pointing it between the LRs will show a slight treble rolloff.
Pointing it up gives you a consistent reading for all speakers (LCR & surround), but it will show even more treble rolloff.

That doesn't create a real problem. You just have to keep in mind that the treble rolloff you see is due to the correction file vs. measurement angle, and don't try to boost it back to flat. That would sound terrible. Instead, start by following the overall treble curve from the measurement (including rolloff). That will still fix phase, early reflections, and frequency response irregularities without altering the overall frequency response. From there, you can experiment with altering the target curve, and decide whether you like the changes.

It's a little easier to work with a 90 degree measurement file and a mic set to 90 degrees. In that case, what you see is what you get. I'd also recommend using a cheap boom mic stand, if you don't already have one.

So, you could spend $100 on a new mic + a boom mic stand, or you could fiddle with the demo using an Omnimic first, then spring for the mic & stand if you see some promise.

As we've discussed before, though, you are kind of screwed when it comes to 3D audio, and that is no small deal for a long term solution. For experimenting with the free demo, though, not such a big deal. Eventually, I understand there will be more 3d audio options available.
Thanks for the information. I have several mic stands and will work with the 0° Omnimic and concentrate on 2 channel only. My source is my HTPC and that is my primary source for music with my OPPO (103D) handling all of the bluray and streaming movie content so no way to have Dirac in that chain anyway.

It will be interesting to see how Dirac does with music in 2 channel mode and will tackle this when I have the spare time (14 day window). I will also be keeping an eye out for a processor with 3D audio and Dirac. I have the Emo upgrade for life so if they can get it done, that seems like the most likely path to where I want to go. I find it ironic that it is the often controversial Emotiva that is touting the specific combo of technologies that many dedicated hobbyists want. The XMC-1 seems to be working as planned so there is hope but as they say, "hope springs eternal in the optimists heart" or is it "a fool and his money are soon parted".

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post #29163 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 09:47 AM
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Well, "need" a strong word, but speakers in this class are more about what's the ultimate setup, rather than what you can get by with.

It also depends on the upper frequency range of the subs, and where you plan to cross them over.
For lower crossovers (especially with 18+" subs), the 215RM is a better match.
For higher crossovers, the 212s give added efficiency.

For no subs, the 215RTs are the ultimate choice, but 210RTs or 215RMs could do the job, but not 212s.
What is the best sub to match with the 215rm for 90 plus%for ht?
Allen
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post #29164 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 09:56 AM
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What is the best sub to match with the 215rm for 90 plus%for ht?
Allen
That's a bit loaded. Do you have a budget in mind and what's your space like? Do you plan on using any dsp? Some feel it's easier to integrate sealed subs with sealed speakers. I'm using two S2s with my 215s. I'm like you, I'm 90% plus HT.

You'll get lots of advice here but it will help if you can expand on needs and desires.
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post #29165 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post
That's a bit loaded. Do you have a budget in mind and what's your space like? Do you plan on using any dsp? Some feel it's easier to integrate sealed subs with sealed speakers. I'm using two S2s with my 215s. I'm like you, I'm 90% plus HT.

You'll get lots of advice here but it will help if you can expand on needs and desires.
I have a dedicated room that 15 x 24 and has a small room off to the side that is is 11 x 11 and a long hallway coming into the room. I use Audessy for the initial set up and I go back and check channel levels and distance myself. Most subs talked about in this thread are with in my budget. If it gets to the upper end of my budget I would by one now and one later. In fact I am going to replace my subs first probably the first of next year. I run seal speakers now so a sealed sub will work for me. I just didn't know if the s1 or 2 is better or os. Their are other great subs out their too I need to look at but I was thinking a full JTR system.
Allen

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post #29166 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DekPM19 View Post
I have a dedicated room that 15 x 24 and has a small room off to the side that is is 11 x 11 and a long hallway coming into the room. I use Audessy for the initial set up and I go back and check channel levels and distance myself. Most subs talked about in this thread are with in my budget. If it gets to the upper end of my budget I would by one now and one later. In fact I am going to replace my subs first probably the first of next year. I run seal speakers now so a sealed sub will work for me. I just didn't know if the s1 or 2 is better or os. Their are other great subs out their too I need to look at but I was thinking a full JTR system.
Allen
If I were getting a pair of subs to augment my 215RT's (I'm not ), they would be the Cap 1400's. The whole ported vs sealed thing is mostly nonsense because with bass (like real estate), the critical issue is location, location, location.

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post #29167 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 11:48 AM
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What is the best sub to match with the 215rm for 90 plus%for ht?
Allen
I know for my personal taste, Ported for movies and sealed for music. 50/50 I would go sealed, but for 90% HT and a large room, Ported would be a good choice. The Cap 1400 would be a solid sub.
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post #29168 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 12:19 PM
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I know for my personal taste, Ported for movies and sealed for music. 50/50 I would go sealed, but for 90% HT and a large room, Ported would be a good choice. The Cap 1400 would be a solid sub.
And yet you like the 215RT's on-board "ported" subs for music ...

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post #29169 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DekPM19 View Post
What is the best sub to match with the 215rm for 90 plus%for ht?
Allen
The 215RM's puts out lots of bass FR on there own. But doesn't go low enough for most who wants to experience down to the sub 20's. If I were looking for a good sub now, I'd take advantage of the pre sale Cap 1400 and get 2 of them and your set. Though I'd go with a couple of S2's with the RM's. Them S2's are potent subs for sure.
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post #29170 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post
That's a bit loaded. Do you have a budget in mind and what's your space like? Do you plan on using any dsp? Some feel it's easier to integrate sealed subs with sealed speakers. I'm using two S2s with my 215s. I'm like you, I'm 90% plus HT.

You'll get lots of advice here but it will help if you can expand on needs and desires.

I honestly think that you pretty much have the ultimate HT speaker/sub setup! The only way that would get any better is if you had room for two more Cap S2's so that you could run one in each corner of the room.
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post #29171 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7channelfreak View Post
That's a bit loaded. Do you have a budget in mind and what's your space like? Do you plan on using any dsp? Some feel it's easier to integrate sealed subs with sealed speakers. I'm using two S2s with my 215s. I'm like you, I'm 90% plus HT.

You'll get lots of advice here but it will help if you can expand on needs and desires.
Correction: It's easier to match sealed speakers with subs (sealed or ported) because a ported speaker can do funky phase and slope stuff around the tuning frequency. You can avoid this either by crossing above the tuning frequency or using a bass management system with additional crossover slope options.

Ported subs are much more efficient, but there are some sacrifices, such as port noise, extension below the tuning frequency, and detail around the tuning frequency. (The ringing at the tuning frequency smears the sound a bit.)
Bad ported subs are peaky around the tuning frequency ("one note wonders"), but good ported subs are flat to the tuning frequency.
Ported vs. sealed subs depends on your taste and priorities, and your room size vs budget.

Personally, I prefer lots of sealed subs, but that's not right for everyone.

There is no benefit to matching sealed speakers & sealed subs or ported speakers & ported subs. They are independent.

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post #29172 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Thanks for the information. I have several mic stands and will work with the 0° Omnimic and concentrate on 2 channel only. My source is my HTPC and that is my primary source for music with my OPPO (103D) handling all of the bluray and streaming movie content so no way to have Dirac in that chain anyway.

I will be interesting to see how it does with music in 2 channel mode and will tackle this when I have the spare time (14 day window). I will also be keeping an eye out for a processor with 3D audio and Dirac. I have the Emo upgrade for life so if they can get it done, that seems like the most likely path to where I want to go. I find it ironic that it is the often controversial Emotiva that is touting the specific combo of technologies that many dedicated hobbyists want. The XMC-1 seems to be working as planned so there is hope but as they say, "hope springs eternal in the optimists heart" or is it "a fool and his money are soon parted".
Sounds like a good strategy. Post your curves when you get a chance to try it out. It's actually pretty fun to play with the target curves.
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post #29173 of 29186 Old Yesterday, 05:18 PM
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If I were getting a pair of subs to augment my 215RT's (I'm not ), they would be the Cap 1400's. The whole ported vs sealed thing is mostly nonsense because with bass (like real estate), the critical issue is location, location, location.
I agree with Rob....in fact I agree so much...I bought 2 Cap 1400's to go with my 215RT's.
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post #29174 of 29186 Old Today, 06:46 AM
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I am going back to subs. When my XMC-1 gets in, I will be crossing for movies.
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post #29175 of 29186 Old Today, 11:42 AM
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And yet you like the 215RT's on-board "ported" subs for music …
Thus is true but I am talking subs now Rob, not mains I have had many ported subs, different brands, sizes and to this day, no music has sounded better in my network than my Triax's. I also liked the S2's.
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Thus is true but I am talking subs now Rob, not mains I have had many ported subs, different brands, sizes and to this day, no music has sounded better in my network than my Triax's. I also liked the S2's.
There is no difference to whether you call it a main or a sub if it plays the same frequencies. Each 215RT, with enough power, is almost equivalent to a single ported Captivator. RMK was using his center 215RT as a sub for two-channel content when he had the Rane or was using the JRiver setup I provided.

I've heard the JTR Captivator, S1, and Orbit Shifter all blind on the same day from the same seat. Couldn't tell a difference between them at all.
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post #29177 of 29186 Old Today, 12:07 PM
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There is no difference to whether you call it a main or a sub if it plays the same frequencies. Each 215RT, with enough power, is almost equivalent to a single ported Captivator. RMK was using his center 215RT as a sub for two-channel content when he had the Rane or was using the JRiver setup I provided.

I've heard the JTR Captivator, S1, and Orbit Shifter all blind on the same day from the same seat. Couldn't tell a difference between them at all.
Have you heard the Triax?

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post #29178 of 29186 Old Today, 12:30 PM
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Have you heard the Triax?
No, but I also heard dual Submersives at the blind GTG which should be similar. With the latest crawl, I've now heard at least 27 different subwoofer systems including subs from Rythmik, Danley, CHT, Hsu Research, JTR Speakers, Seaton Sound, Epik, BIC, Klipsch, and DIY. DIY includes drivers from Eminence, Acoustic Elegance, Dayton, Stereo Integrity, Mach V, & TC Sounds. The available displacement, drivers, amplification, DSP, and the room have far more bearing on how a sub sounds for music listening than whether it is ported or sealed. In other words, you could like the Triax best because of its greater displacement or the amount of power it has available vs it being sealed. Its just too hard to know.
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post #29179 of 29186 Old Today, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
There is no difference to whether you call it a main or a sub if it plays the same frequencies. Each 215RT, with enough power, is almost equivalent to a single ported Captivator. RMK was using his center 215RT as a sub for two-channel content when he had the Rane or was using the JRiver setup I provided.

I've heard the JTR Captivator, S1, and Orbit Shifter all blind on the same day from the same seat. Couldn't tell a difference between them at all.
I do remember sub C sounding the best to me for music at the time. However, I have heard so many different subs since that meet that I chalk it up to my mood - I must have just eaten or drank a beer or something.


As far as the 215's go, having owned both dual passive Caps and now the 215's I would subjectively say that the 215's have the same output as my ported caps powered by the ep4000. Passive Caps powered by the Crown 5000 or something similar like the CV 5000 would have more headroom IMO.

Still, pretty crazy impressive for a pair of speakers.
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post #29180 of 29186 Old Today, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
No, but I also heard dual Submersives at the blind GTG which should be similar. With the latest crawl, I've now heard at least 27 different subwoofer systems including subs from Rythmik, Danley, CHT, Hsu Research, JTR Speakers, Seaton Sound, Epik, BIC, Klipsch, and DIY. DIY includes drivers from Eminence, Acoustic Elegance, Dayton, Stereo Integrity, Mach V, & TC Sounds. The available displacement, drivers, amplification, DSP, and the room have far more bearing on how a sub sounds for music listening than whether it is ported or sealed. In other words, you could like the Triax best because of its greater displacement or the amount of power it has available vs it being sealed. Its just too hard to know.
To date, my Triax, 212HT combo seemed to be the best music combo for me. However RMK is right and I do love the 215RT's for music, but music is not my first. I spent some time in the beginning with the 215's with alot of music, but in my theater I am pretty much back to 90-100% movies hence my comment about going back to subs. When I get some free time I am going to set my theater back to the 212HT, Triax combo for a bit and evaluate that for a bit and see what I like better. The RT's could "possibly" be going on the market.

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Still, pretty crazy impressive for a pair of speakers subs that can play fullrange.
Fixed it for you.
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post #29182 of 29186 Old Today, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
To date, my Triax, 212HT combo seemed to be the best music combo for me. However RMK is right and I do love the 215RT's for music, but music is not my first. I spent some time in the beginning with the 215's with alot of music, but in my theater I am pretty much back to 90-100% movies hence my comment about going back to subs. When I get some free time I am going to set my theater back to the 212HT, Triax combo for a bit and evaluate that for a bit and see what I like better. The RT's could "possibly" be going on the market.
And so it goes in the wild and wacky world of HT audio on the AVS Forum ...

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post #29183 of 29186 Old Today, 04:14 PM
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And so it goes in the wild and wacky world of HT audio on the AVS Forum …
To add, It will be months before I do anything. I have a few different configs I want to do and spend a few weeks with each, not to mention the new center channel and XMC-1 should be arriving in the next week or two. Would like to see what Dirac will do in my quarters.
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To add, It will be months before I do anything. I have a few different configs I want to do and spend a few weeks with each, not to mention the new center channel and XMC-1 should be arriving in the next week or two. Would like to see what Dirac will do in my quarters.
I predict it will free you from juggling all that hardware in pursuit of your ideal sound.

It certainly makes a difference to start with very capable hardware, but any of that stuff should get you close enough that you can fine tune the rest.
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On the sealed vs. ported discussion, I was able to compan Rythmik F25s (14-hi mode) and FV15HPs (14-hi 1 port mode).
They sounded virtually identical above the tuning frequency.
At the FV15HP's tuning frequency, the F25s had more detail.
The F25s played lower.
The FV15HPs played louder.
When crossed at the same frequency, the FV15HPs were easier to localize, I think due to subtle port noise.
I kept the F25s, but ended up getting 4 of them before I was fully satisfied in my big room.
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post #29186 of 29186 Old Today, 07:28 PM
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Question for people who have heard both. What is the advantage of Noesis 212HT over 228HT in a HT system which has 2 good subs?? Is 212HT worth $1K more than 228HT?
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