Official JTR speaker thread - Page 976 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #29251 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
...and also added a bass bump in the XO of the 2015 212HT.
I asked about getting the 2015 crossovers or midbass drivers if there was an improvement of the midbass output. His response was that the midbass was smoother. So where are you getting that there was a midbass bump? Trust me, I'd want it and Jeff would want me to have it so I can shut up already.

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post #29252 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 11:28 AM
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@dgage

I should not have said "bass bump"
2015 Noesis 212HT featuring smoother frequency response, better off-axis response, lower distortion and improved mid bass


http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.co...-212ht-7272564
Here is the posts I am referring to.

He was asked
In the information about the 2015 version of the 212 it mentions better mid bass. Looking at the woofer driver pictures they seem to be the same drivers in the original models. If this is the case, is the change in mid bass all due to a change in the crossover? If so, can these crossovers be purchased for the older models, or be sent in and updated?

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There has been a slight improvement and it was in the crossover. It's not going to be available as an upgrade because the newer crossover have been designed for the newer horn.

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post #29253 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
I would think that if anyone was interested in purchasing the "LP" version of the 212HT b/c its cabinet is lower profile and sealed Jeff could rework the XO to match the HT version like he does with the 210RM/215RM. It still won't go below 80hz but it would put those 6db back where they belong.
This is a passive speaker so for the most part at low frequencies you only "put 6dB back" by taking it away from the rest of the range, which would reduce the sensitivity of the speaker by ~6dB, unless you change the box or drivers. That is exactly what happens if you swap the enclosure for the larger vented 212HT package and why the sensitivity of the speaker above ~200Hz remains the same.

Of course a +6dB shelf filter in the signal chain would have a similar or better effect without reducing the sensitivity at higher frequencies. Unfortunate that's the basic realities of loudspeaker design.
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post #29254 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
This is a passive speaker so for the most part at low frequencies you only "put 6dB back" by taking it away from the rest of the range, which would reduce the sensitivity of the speaker by ~6dB, unless you change the box or drivers. That is exactly what happens if you swap the enclosure for the larger vented 212HT package and why the sensitivity of the speaker above ~200Hz remains the same.

Of course a +6dB shelf filter in the signal chain would have a similar or better effect without reducing the sensitivity at higher frequencies. Unfortunate that's the basic realities of loudspeaker design.
Thanks Mark for the explanation. Makes complete sense now.

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post #29255 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 01:40 PM
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I hope Mark/Jeff makes an "upgraded 4722" with a better horn and better drivers. Personally I think an improved active version of this would go a long way to fulfilling the desires of most.

Clearly a portion of the market is willing to accept the size and aesthetics.

Marks Sparking Imagination and Jeffs Captivating Ideas would surely breathe new life into this design for domestic use.

I do hope this post can be the Catalyst for bringing this Orbit Shifting new speaker to fruition.
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post #29256 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 01:42 PM
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Found a Fedex slip on my door yesterday. I was thinking my 215RM was being delivered. So I signed the slip, but I never checked the email to see what it was. So all day I was thinking when I got home, I was going to find a big box on the step. To my surprise when I got home there was a big box alright, A business class big box package with something in it for my wife. Man I am pissed!
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post #29257 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I don't want to bring the midbass issue up in full force again but I have the 212 HT-LP and I recommend following Jeff's advice, use them with a baffle wall. I did not realize that was the recommendation when I bought them and I DO NOT feel they have enough midbass, even with 2,400w from a DSonic amp and DSP using the MiniDSP NanoAVR (does not have output issues like regular MiniDSP units are often mentioned to have).
I expect you never pushed much of that power into the speaker, especially below 200Hz. No magnitude of available power has any effect on the frequency without EQ ahead of the amp. Had the minidsp been used to pull the entire range above ~200Hz down 6-12dB you might have been able to put more power into the lower range and observed more of the excursion capability.

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I put the 212HT-LP head to head with the JTR 215RM and Seaton Cat12 and the midbass difference was huge. So with that negative said, I will add the positive; I absolutely love the upper end and midrange of my 212s but I wish I would have bought the ported 212s. As Frohlich mentioned, I added midbass modules to them (JBL 2225 15" drivers) and they are a seamless match using a 48 db crossover at 200Hz. Now they are phenomenal! Or you could skip the midbass modules and get the kick-ass 215RMs and have all of the midbass most anyone would want. But these are just my opinions and are worth what was paid to me for said opinions.
One of the reasons the 215RMs have "more midbass" is they have a bigger sealed box with drivers of lower sensitivity that naturally extend lower. The irony is that if you look at the real physics of the comparison, the 12s in the 212LP in fact have more midbass headroom than the 15" midbass module you added! The reason the 15" midbass module added midbass back was because it easily allows you to set the level vs having to get in and apply EQ to the main speaker. In effect, the module provides the EQ required to achieve the response you desire.
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post #29258 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I expect you never pushed much of that power into the speaker, especially below 200Hz. No magnitude of available power has any effect on the frequency without EQ ahead of the amp. Had the minidsp been used to pull the entire range above ~200Hz down 6-12dB you might have been able to put more power into the lower range and observed more of the excursion capability.

One of the reasons the 215RMs have "more midbass" is they have a bigger sealed box with drivers of lower sensitivity that naturally extend lower. The irony is that if you look at the real physics of the comparison, the 12s in the 212LP in fact have more midbass headroom than the 15" midbass module you added! The reason the 15" midbass module added midbass back was because it easily allows you to set the level vs having to get in and apply EQ to the main speaker. In effect, the module provides the EQ required to achieve the response you desire.
I actually did reduce the upper end of the frequency spectrum...I've learned to cut first and then boost. But maybe I didn't do enough cutting. I'll definitely agree that I expected the 2 12" speakers to have more oomph than I was able to extract, I was never able to really get them moving.

The end point is the same, for most users, and my primary reason for posting, they should get the ported 212HTs...in my opinion. I think the 212s are awesome speakers if you get the correct one for the situation. But I like the 215RMs even more...they just wouldn't fit in my room.

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post #29259 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I expect you never pushed much of that power into the speaker, especially below 200Hz. No magnitude of available power has any effect on the frequency without EQ ahead of the amp. Had the minidsp been used to pull the entire range above ~200Hz down 6-12dB you might have been able to put more power into the lower range and observed more of the excursion capability.



One of the reasons the 215RMs have "more midbass" is they have a bigger sealed box with drivers of lower sensitivity that naturally extend lower. The irony is that if you look at the real physics of the comparison, the 12s in the 212LP in fact have more midbass headroom than the 15" midbass module you added! The reason the 15" midbass module added midbass back was because it easily allows you to set the level vs having to get in and apply EQ to the main speaker. In effect, the module provides the EQ required to achieve the response you desire.
People may need to read Marks post twice. I am just glad Mark posted it. the 212 is more sensitive down to 80 than the 215! The other issue is the definition of midbass. Some are talking different FR than others. The 212's matched with capable subs at 80hz are hard to beat. They are more sensitive than the 215 down to 80hz!
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post #29260 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Of course a +6dB shelf filter in the signal chain would have a similar or better effect without reducing the sensitivity at higher frequencies. Unfortunate that's the basic realities of loudspeaker design.
Sensitivity at higher frequencies isn't reduced only when using digital filters, right? What if you add an analog signal shaper? Haven't you now tailored the signal to the lowest sensitivity frequency portion of the driver?
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post #29261 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Found a Fedex slip on my door yesterday. I was thinking my 215RM was being delivered. So I signed the slip, but I never checked the email to see what it was. So all day I was thinking when I got home, I was going to find a big box on the step. To my surprise when I got home there was a big box alright, A business class big box package with something in it for my wife. Man I am pissed!
I'm with ya, I know my speakers aren't ready but I hear a big truck near my house and get all curious for a second.

Jeff's all wrapped up in the new captivators I bet =)
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post #29262 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 03:28 PM
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Sensitivity at higher frequencies isn't reduced only when using digital filters, right? What if you add an analog signal shaper? Haven't you now tailored the signal to the lowest sensitivity frequency portion of the driver?
Sensitivity is only reduced when a designer changes the passive crossover. DSP or analog filters types applied ahead of the amplifier all have the same net effect of changing the amount of power applied vs frequency, but can not change the power required to produce a given SPL at a given frequency.
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post #29263 of 30452 Old 05-15-2015, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post
I hope Mark/Jeff makes an "upgraded 4722" with a better horn and better drivers. Personally I think an improved active version of this would go a long way to fulfilling the desires of most.

Clearly a portion of the market is willing to accept the size and aesthetics.

Marks Sparking Imagination and Jeffs Captivating Ideas would surely breathe new life into this design for domestic use.

I do hope this post can be the Catalyst for bringing this Orbit Shifting new speaker to fruition.

I see what you did there..
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post #29264 of 30452 Old 05-16-2015, 08:44 AM
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People may need to read Marks post twice. I am just glad Mark posted it. the 212 is more sensitive down to 80 than the 215! The other issue is the definition of midbass. Some are talking different FR than others. The 212's matched with capable subs at 80hz are hard to beat. They are more sensitive than the 215 down to 80hz!
All true but the integration of the subs and main speakers is an area where most home systems have issues. Of course this can be mitigated with optimised setup/ EQ and if done correctly the 212/sub solution is as you say "hard to beat". I have found the sensitivity delta (212 vs 215) is insignificant and the 215RT is the only speaker I have heard that makes your "hard to beat" caveat necessary.

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post #29265 of 30452 Old 05-16-2015, 05:28 PM
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All true but the integration of the subs and main speakers is an area where most home systems have issues. Of course this can be mitigated with optimised setup/ EQ and if done correctly the 212/sub solution is as you say "hard to beat". I have found the sensitivity delta (212 vs 215) is insignificant and the 215RT is the only speaker I have heard that makes your "hard to beat" caveat necessary.
Yes sub integration is very improtant and that is why many of us spend a lot of time in REW measuring and getting that integration right. As much as I like the 215RT, I garuantee it will not "beat" a 212HT/3OS LFU combo in any aspect including bass integration, let alone SPL. For the average user, yes the 215RT will usually give better results, but for those willing to spend the time to optimize sub placement and time alignment according to the in room response then the 215RT will lose. sorry

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
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post #29266 of 30452 Old 05-16-2015, 05:36 PM
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This build will be the next level type setup

SEOS-24, BMS 4594ND, Dual AE TD18H+

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
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post #29267 of 30452 Old 05-16-2015, 07:22 PM
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...I guarantee it will not "beat" a 212HT/3OS LFU combo....
OK, for home theater, name me one other person that has 3 OSs? I mean really? You just blew us 1%s up with your .001% crazy self!

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post #29268 of 30452 Old 05-16-2015, 07:36 PM
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^ I don't know David those 24's you were running were sooo good at the show last month. I was super impressed! I think those qualifiy as 0.001%'s. Really good job on those subs!

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post #29269 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 10:23 AM
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Yes sub integration is very improtant and that is why many of us spend a lot of time in REW measuring and getting that integration right. As much as I like the 215RT, I garuantee it will not "beat" a 212HT/3OS LFU combo in any aspect including bass integration, let alone SPL. For the average user, yes the 215RT will usually give better results, but for those willing to spend the time to optimize sub placement and time alignment according to the in room response then the 215RT will lose. sorry
When you use terms like "beat" and "lose" you lose me Lance.

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post #29270 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 10:29 AM
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You seemed ok with it when it was a caveat for which the 215's could be the "hard to beat" solution. Haha. In the end separate multiple subs can be a lot of work to get right but once you do, forgetaboutit nothing beats it.
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post #29271 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 11:02 AM
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You're not alone RMK, he loses me too as I don't need near that much output. If they make another Mad Max movie, I'm going to recommend Lance as lead for the crazies.

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post #29272 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 11:27 AM
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Fellas, I've gotten curious about trying out one of the minidsp units instead of the audyssey in my denon 4520. That said, I'm not at all sure which of the minidsp products would best fit my situation. Currenlty, my only sources are an oppo, ps3, directv dvr and apple tv (which I never use anymore) all on hdmi to the avr and signal to speakers (all crossed over at 100hz). I'm pretty curious about the nanoavr but I'm wondering if I applying eq before the avr would apply bass management would totally screw things up. Any suggestions guys on which one to try and/or how best to implement?
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post #29273 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 11:49 AM
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I like the NanoAVR but it has a couple issues. 1. It only has two HDMI inputs so you'd have to pick a pair such as the Oppo and DirecTV. 2. It only supports 7.1 channels so if you are thinking of upgrading to Auro/Atmos, it will have a very short lifespan. Regarding the DSP, it has quite a bit of power for the price and overall I like it very much. Coach2369 has a Denon 4520 and NanoAVR and at one point his calibrator integrated the NanoAVR with Audyssey Pro but now just runs the NanoAVR and pretty much bypasses all of the 4520 EQ options. And his system really sounds great so the NanoAVR could be fairly easily integrated into your system.

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post #29274 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I like the NanoAVR but it has a couple issues. 1. It only has two HDMI inputs so you'd have to pick a pair such as the Oppo and DirecTV. 2. It only supports 7.1 channels so if you are thinking of upgrading to Auro/Atmos, it will have a very short lifespan. Regarding the DSP, it has quite a bit of power for the price and overall I like it very much. Coach2369 has a Denon 4520 and NanoAVR and at one point his calibrator integrated the NanoAVR with Audyssey Pro but now just runs the NanoAVR and pretty much bypasses all of the 4520 EQ options. And his system really sounds great so the NanoAVR could be fairly easily integrated into your system.
Thank you very much for the feedback. 2 sources is actually fine. I rarely use the atv anymore and all I really watch on satellite is sports and news. Currently, I've only got a 5.2 setup (5.1 signal obviously) so no issues there.

Separate question though. If I were to add height speakers and back surrounds (but not atmos/auro) making it a 9.2 setup, would that present any problems? The audio from the oppo/ps3 is still in the form of 5.1/7.1 audio so the nanoavr should still be applying eq to the same signal and then the 4520 would matrix that signal into heights and surrounds correct? Or have I got that all wrong?
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post #29275 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 12:22 PM
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I'm not familiar with how the 4520 handles the additional surrounds but what you surmise sounds reasonable. The Denon wouldn't realize the NanoAVR is even in the chain, to it, it is simply a 5.1/7.1 signal. If you add the NanoAVR and some EQ, the Denon 4520 wouldn't know anything was different than a straight signal from the Oppo. So I would expect it to work well, but with even better sound that is specific to your room/setup.

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post #29276 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I like the NanoAVR but it has a couple issues. 1. It only has two HDMI inputs so you'd have to pick a pair such as the Oppo and DirecTV. 2. It only supports 7.1 channels so if you are thinking of upgrading to Auro/Atmos, it will have a very short lifespan. Regarding the DSP, it has quite a bit of power for the price and overall I like it very much. Coach2369 has a Denon 4520 and NanoAVR and at one point his calibrator integrated the NanoAVR with Audyssey Pro but now just runs the NanoAVR and pretty much bypasses all of the 4520 EQ options. And his system really sounds great so the NanoAVR could be fairly easily integrated into your system.
I was reading that Mini Dsp's have allot of noise and people say they don't like it. Any truth to this?
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post #29277 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 04:20 PM
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You seemed ok with it when it was a caveat for which the 215's could be the "hard to beat" solution. Haha. In the end separate multiple subs can be a lot of work to get right but once you do, forgetaboutit nothing beats it.
OK Lance, you win ...

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post #29278 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I was reading that Mini Dsp's have allot of noise and people say they don't like it. Any truth to this?
I think that is primarily with the smaller, entry level MiniDSP 2x4. I've worked with serveral MiniDSP NanoAVR units and I haven't had any noise issues at all, I'm sure it helps that the signal is kept digital and there is no need for an A/D or D/A conversion.

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post #29279 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I just want to make sure people get the correct 212 for them, which in most cases is the ported version.
This is actually the very reason why I don't have electronic ordering on the website. I prefer having the opportunity to talk to all of my customers and make sure they are getting the best speakers for their application.

If anyone ever has an issue or is unhappy with a JTR product than please give me the opportunity to rectify the situation first.
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post #29280 of 30452 Old 05-17-2015, 05:55 PM
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Some of you no doubt have already seen this, but just in case. Archaea posted this in our KC HT Crawl thread. JTR speakers in the first two room on the video.

GREAT time.

We did a lot of movie clips too, John Wick club scene is my new all time favorite demo scene.




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