Official JTR speaker thread - Page 976 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #29251 of 30237 Old 05-13-2015, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
Interesting, I find Atmos/DSU/Auro contribute much more to the "experience" than the processor but if you're talking two channel, then I guess I get it. If the big need is more EQ then Dirac is probably the way to go. The unit seems a little buggy to me but maybe yours will be perfect.
It's such apples and oranges, it's almost silly to discuss what matters more. (Not totally silly, though, since that is the choice we are currently forced to make.) There is no right or wrong answer.
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post #29252 of 30237 Old 05-13-2015, 07:26 AM
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I hear ya. Since I have ordered I have gone back and forth. But I always tell myself. I will always sel it if needed. And I will at minimum break even. Then I have upgrade for life if I ever need it.

The denon does sound pretty bad with music. Even though I don't listen to as much music anymore. But...

The one thing that gets me is filmixer here on AVS (who mixes movies for a living) said the xmc1 for pure sound is better than having atmos (which he had with the 5200) that is a ringing endorsement for me.

So I will see what it's all about. And see if it's better than atoms
Actually I am not worried about Atmos, but more so with DTSX. I have a feeling that DTSX will rule the road very soon.
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So you have an Atmos setup?

I would love it if those who make statements like Denon "sounds pretty bad with music" could have those opinions validated by a db test. I'd be willing to bet they can't tell a comparably priced Denon AVR from an XMC-1 to any statistically valid extent.
I have to agree, I know my 4520 sounds great for music as long as Audyssey is off. I have heard the 8801 and think that the Denon is every bit as good. I would imagine that the XMC-1 might have an advantage and might sound a bit better, but was not enough for me give up all the bells and whistles of the Denon. The wifi on the X7200WA was another feature I really like. One thing I read about the XMC-1 that the owners are saying is the video pass through is a nice feature. Video is said to look so much better without being processed. Something I probably would not notice as video is not really my thing. Like I said if I listed to allot more music, I would have stayed the course of the XMC-1, but being I watch probably 80-90% movies, the Denon just fits better. I know the wait is killing me!!
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post #29253 of 30237 Old 05-13-2015, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
It's such apples and oranges, it's almost silly to discuss what matters more. (Not totally silly, though, since that is the choice we are currently forced to make.) There is no right or wrong answer.
When asked about preferences it isn't silly to respond. With these new technologies, and limited availability, preferences are inevitable and choices are sometimes necessary. Your last sentence is correct, it's all about opinions (see signature line).

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post #29254 of 30237 Old 05-13-2015, 07:30 AM
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yup makes perfect sense...

my x4100 is terrible with staying connected to the internet...hope your 7200 is better! also I have no doubt the flagship will sound better than the lower end AVR that I have..

Panasonic 65VT30 | Panasonic AE8000 HD PJ | Emotiva XMC-1 | Emotiva XPA-5 gen |Emotiva XPA-200| PSA MT110 x 3 FL/C/FR | PSA MT110sur surrounds | 3 - PSA XS30 (1 SE) | OPPO 103 |

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post #29255 of 30237 Old 05-13-2015, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Fineberg View Post
yup makes perfect sense...

my x4100 is terrible with staying connected to the internet...hope your 7200 is better! also I have no doubt the flagship will sound better than the lower end AVR that I have..
I don't think the X4100 was low end at all? I thought it replaced the 4520? Who knows though. The only thing I wish they would do is unload Audyssey. But speaking of the wifi, can you do your firmware updates with it? I mean does it disconnect while doing so?
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post #29256 of 30237 Old 05-13-2015, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I don't think the X4100 was low end at all? I thought it replaced the 4520? Who knows though. The only thing I wish they would do is unload Audyssey. But speaking of the wifi, can you do your firmware updates with it? I mean does it disconnect while doing so?
haha no the x4100 replaced the x4000...there are 2 models above the 4100....so there have to be compromises (notice I said lower...not lowend)

yes you can do firmware updates over wifi...in fact if you are connected by wifi and the FW update is available it prompts you to do so upon startup
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post #29257 of 30237 Old 05-14-2015, 01:29 PM
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Anyone hear the new JTR 212HT 2015 Models? If so what are your impressions or links to the review?
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post #29258 of 30237 Old 05-14-2015, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Frohlich
I am under the impression it is part of Jeff's design. They really are designed as monitors and most folks cross them over at 80HZ or higher. They do measure flat to around 70HZ so it's not like they can't produce midbass but I can tell you that the Yorkville U215 and JBL 4722 are just fuller sounding and put out more midbass.....at least more in line with my personal preferences. I have seen several AVS members supplement the 212s (especially the 212 LP version) with midbass modules and the owners seem to love the results.


FWIW, this is a byproduct of delivering the blinding efficiency many of you appreciate about the Noesis 212HT and setting some practical limit to a cabinet size. Anyone willing to experiment with some EQ or Dirac could dial in all the midbass power they like within some rather intense output limit. Any design like the 212HT is meant to compliment with subwoofers (still my own preference for a home theater setup) where the port tuning sets the practical low extension, where sealed designs like the 212LP, 215RM and my Catalyst 12Cs are really only limited on the low end by available output from the speaker and if you have sufficient power.

Interesting impressions with the big horns... I remember when my Catalyst 12C's and Jeff's T12's were considered obscenely large.


Just purchased a pair of JBL 4722n speakers.
For anyone interested that's not following this thread, Mark posted the above earlier ^^^^^^^^
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post #29259 of 30237 Old 05-14-2015, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
Originally Posted by Frohlich
FWIW, this is a byproduct of delivering the blinding efficiency many of you appreciate about the Noesis 212HT and setting some practical limit to a cabinet size. Anyone willing to experiment with some EQ or Dirac could dial in all the midbass power they like within some rather intense output limit. Any design like the 212HT is meant to compliment with subwoofers (still my own preference for a home theater setup) where the port tuning sets the practical low extension, where sealed designs like the 212LP, 215RM and my Catalyst 12Cs are really only limited on the low end by available output from the speaker and if you have sufficient power.
I don't want to bring the midbass issue up in full force again but I have the 212 HT-LP and I recommend following Jeff's advice, use them with a baffle wall. I did not realize that was the recommendation when I bought them and I DO NOT feel they have enough midbass, even with 2,400w from a DSonic amp and DSP using the MiniDSP NanoAVR (does not have output issues like regular MiniDSP units are often mentioned to have). I put the 212HT-LP head to head with the JTR 215RM and Seaton Cat12 and the midbass difference was huge. So with that negative said, I will add the positive; I absolutely love the upper end and midrange of my 212s but I wish I would have bought the ported 212s. As Frohlich mentioned, I added midbass modules to them (JBL 2225 15" drivers) and they are a seamless match using a 48 db crossover at 200Hz. Now they are phenomenal! Or you could skip the midbass modules and get the kick-ass 215RMs and have all of the midbass most anyone would want. But these are just my opinions and are worth what was paid to me for said opinions.

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post #29260 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 04:47 AM
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I would think that if anyone was interested in purchasing the "LP" version of the 212HT b/c its cabinet is lower profile and sealed Jeff could rework the XO to match the HT version like he does with the 210RM/215RM. It still won't go below 80hz but it would put those 6db back where they belong.

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post #29261 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
I would think that if anyone was interested in purchasing the "LP" version of the 212HT b/c its cabinet is lower profile and sealed Jeff could rework the XO to match the HT version like he does with the 210RM/215RM. It still won't go below 80hz but it would put those 6db back where they belong.
Jeff wants happy customers, including me. We briefly discussed changing out the cabinets but it was never mentioned that a simple crossover change would address 6db and a speaker that starts rolling off at 90Hz. Wish it were that easy as I would have loved such a change. Nothing is perfect but even after listening to the $20,000 JBL M2 Reference speakers, Danleys, Seaton Cats, 215s, etc, I had not the slightest desire to change from my JTR 212s. The 212 (ported) get tons of praise that they deserve, I just want to make sure people get the correct 212 for them, which in most cases is the ported version.

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post #29262 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 06:46 AM
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Jeff wants happy customers, including me. We briefly discussed changing out the cabinets but it was never mentioned that a simple crossover change would address 6db and a speaker that starts rolling off at 90Hz. Wish it were that easy as I would have loved such a change.
He would have to completely redesign another XO so it would not be simple or quick. If someone wanted to order a "custom XO" version of the LP I am sure he would design one that would perform admirably although I haven't seen or heard of a 2015 212HT-LP with the wooden horn.

My thinking is if he purposely designed the XO in the LP to not pick up midbass when put in a baffle or against a barrier he should be able to design one that took full advantage of the 2 x 12" woofers output. He did this with the 215RM/210RM.

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post #29263 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 10:26 AM
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...and also added a bass bump in the XO of the 2015 212HT.
I asked about getting the 2015 crossovers or midbass drivers if there was an improvement of the midbass output. His response was that the midbass was smoother. So where are you getting that there was a midbass bump? Trust me, I'd want it and Jeff would want me to have it so I can shut up already.

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post #29264 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 11:28 AM
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@dgage

I should not have said "bass bump"
2015 Noesis 212HT featuring smoother frequency response, better off-axis response, lower distortion and improved mid bass


http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.co...-212ht-7272564
Here is the posts I am referring to.

He was asked
In the information about the 2015 version of the 212 it mentions better mid bass. Looking at the woofer driver pictures they seem to be the same drivers in the original models. If this is the case, is the change in mid bass all due to a change in the crossover? If so, can these crossovers be purchased for the older models, or be sent in and updated?

reply
There has been a slight improvement and it was in the crossover. It's not going to be available as an upgrade because the newer crossover have been designed for the newer horn.

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post #29265 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post
I would think that if anyone was interested in purchasing the "LP" version of the 212HT b/c its cabinet is lower profile and sealed Jeff could rework the XO to match the HT version like he does with the 210RM/215RM. It still won't go below 80hz but it would put those 6db back where they belong.
This is a passive speaker so for the most part at low frequencies you only "put 6dB back" by taking it away from the rest of the range, which would reduce the sensitivity of the speaker by ~6dB, unless you change the box or drivers. That is exactly what happens if you swap the enclosure for the larger vented 212HT package and why the sensitivity of the speaker above ~200Hz remains the same.

Of course a +6dB shelf filter in the signal chain would have a similar or better effect without reducing the sensitivity at higher frequencies. Unfortunate that's the basic realities of loudspeaker design.
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post #29266 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
This is a passive speaker so for the most part at low frequencies you only "put 6dB back" by taking it away from the rest of the range, which would reduce the sensitivity of the speaker by ~6dB, unless you change the box or drivers. That is exactly what happens if you swap the enclosure for the larger vented 212HT package and why the sensitivity of the speaker above ~200Hz remains the same.

Of course a +6dB shelf filter in the signal chain would have a similar or better effect without reducing the sensitivity at higher frequencies. Unfortunate that's the basic realities of loudspeaker design.
Thanks Mark for the explanation. Makes complete sense now.

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post #29267 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 01:40 PM
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I hope Mark/Jeff makes an "upgraded 4722" with a better horn and better drivers. Personally I think an improved active version of this would go a long way to fulfilling the desires of most.

Clearly a portion of the market is willing to accept the size and aesthetics.

Marks Sparking Imagination and Jeffs Captivating Ideas would surely breathe new life into this design for domestic use.

I do hope this post can be the Catalyst for bringing this Orbit Shifting new speaker to fruition.
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post #29268 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 01:42 PM
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Found a Fedex slip on my door yesterday. I was thinking my 215RM was being delivered. So I signed the slip, but I never checked the email to see what it was. So all day I was thinking when I got home, I was going to find a big box on the step. To my surprise when I got home there was a big box alright, A business class big box package with something in it for my wife. Man I am pissed!
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post #29269 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
I don't want to bring the midbass issue up in full force again but I have the 212 HT-LP and I recommend following Jeff's advice, use them with a baffle wall. I did not realize that was the recommendation when I bought them and I DO NOT feel they have enough midbass, even with 2,400w from a DSonic amp and DSP using the MiniDSP NanoAVR (does not have output issues like regular MiniDSP units are often mentioned to have).
I expect you never pushed much of that power into the speaker, especially below 200Hz. No magnitude of available power has any effect on the frequency without EQ ahead of the amp. Had the minidsp been used to pull the entire range above ~200Hz down 6-12dB you might have been able to put more power into the lower range and observed more of the excursion capability.

Quote:
I put the 212HT-LP head to head with the JTR 215RM and Seaton Cat12 and the midbass difference was huge. So with that negative said, I will add the positive; I absolutely love the upper end and midrange of my 212s but I wish I would have bought the ported 212s. As Frohlich mentioned, I added midbass modules to them (JBL 2225 15" drivers) and they are a seamless match using a 48 db crossover at 200Hz. Now they are phenomenal! Or you could skip the midbass modules and get the kick-ass 215RMs and have all of the midbass most anyone would want. But these are just my opinions and are worth what was paid to me for said opinions.
One of the reasons the 215RMs have "more midbass" is they have a bigger sealed box with drivers of lower sensitivity that naturally extend lower. The irony is that if you look at the real physics of the comparison, the 12s in the 212LP in fact have more midbass headroom than the 15" midbass module you added! The reason the 15" midbass module added midbass back was because it easily allows you to set the level vs having to get in and apply EQ to the main speaker. In effect, the module provides the EQ required to achieve the response you desire.
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post #29270 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I expect you never pushed much of that power into the speaker, especially below 200Hz. No magnitude of available power has any effect on the frequency without EQ ahead of the amp. Had the minidsp been used to pull the entire range above ~200Hz down 6-12dB you might have been able to put more power into the lower range and observed more of the excursion capability.

One of the reasons the 215RMs have "more midbass" is they have a bigger sealed box with drivers of lower sensitivity that naturally extend lower. The irony is that if you look at the real physics of the comparison, the 12s in the 212LP in fact have more midbass headroom than the 15" midbass module you added! The reason the 15" midbass module added midbass back was because it easily allows you to set the level vs having to get in and apply EQ to the main speaker. In effect, the module provides the EQ required to achieve the response you desire.
I actually did reduce the upper end of the frequency spectrum...I've learned to cut first and then boost. But maybe I didn't do enough cutting. I'll definitely agree that I expected the 2 12" speakers to have more oomph than I was able to extract, I was never able to really get them moving.

The end point is the same, for most users, and my primary reason for posting, they should get the ported 212HTs...in my opinion. I think the 212s are awesome speakers if you get the correct one for the situation. But I like the 215RMs even more...they just wouldn't fit in my room.

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post #29271 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
I expect you never pushed much of that power into the speaker, especially below 200Hz. No magnitude of available power has any effect on the frequency without EQ ahead of the amp. Had the minidsp been used to pull the entire range above ~200Hz down 6-12dB you might have been able to put more power into the lower range and observed more of the excursion capability.



One of the reasons the 215RMs have "more midbass" is they have a bigger sealed box with drivers of lower sensitivity that naturally extend lower. The irony is that if you look at the real physics of the comparison, the 12s in the 212LP in fact have more midbass headroom than the 15" midbass module you added! The reason the 15" midbass module added midbass back was because it easily allows you to set the level vs having to get in and apply EQ to the main speaker. In effect, the module provides the EQ required to achieve the response you desire.
People may need to read Marks post twice. I am just glad Mark posted it. the 212 is more sensitive down to 80 than the 215! The other issue is the definition of midbass. Some are talking different FR than others. The 212's matched with capable subs at 80hz are hard to beat. They are more sensitive than the 215 down to 80hz!
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post #29272 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Of course a +6dB shelf filter in the signal chain would have a similar or better effect without reducing the sensitivity at higher frequencies. Unfortunate that's the basic realities of loudspeaker design.
Sensitivity at higher frequencies isn't reduced only when using digital filters, right? What if you add an analog signal shaper? Haven't you now tailored the signal to the lowest sensitivity frequency portion of the driver?
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post #29273 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Found a Fedex slip on my door yesterday. I was thinking my 215RM was being delivered. So I signed the slip, but I never checked the email to see what it was. So all day I was thinking when I got home, I was going to find a big box on the step. To my surprise when I got home there was a big box alright, A business class big box package with something in it for my wife. Man I am pissed!
I'm with ya, I know my speakers aren't ready but I hear a big truck near my house and get all curious for a second.

Jeff's all wrapped up in the new captivators I bet =)
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post #29274 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 03:28 PM
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Sensitivity at higher frequencies isn't reduced only when using digital filters, right? What if you add an analog signal shaper? Haven't you now tailored the signal to the lowest sensitivity frequency portion of the driver?
Sensitivity is only reduced when a designer changes the passive crossover. DSP or analog filters types applied ahead of the amplifier all have the same net effect of changing the amount of power applied vs frequency, but can not change the power required to produce a given SPL at a given frequency.
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post #29275 of 30237 Old 05-15-2015, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post
I hope Mark/Jeff makes an "upgraded 4722" with a better horn and better drivers. Personally I think an improved active version of this would go a long way to fulfilling the desires of most.

Clearly a portion of the market is willing to accept the size and aesthetics.

Marks Sparking Imagination and Jeffs Captivating Ideas would surely breathe new life into this design for domestic use.

I do hope this post can be the Catalyst for bringing this Orbit Shifting new speaker to fruition.

I see what you did there..
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post #29276 of 30237 Old 05-16-2015, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
People may need to read Marks post twice. I am just glad Mark posted it. the 212 is more sensitive down to 80 than the 215! The other issue is the definition of midbass. Some are talking different FR than others. The 212's matched with capable subs at 80hz are hard to beat. They are more sensitive than the 215 down to 80hz!
All true but the integration of the subs and main speakers is an area where most home systems have issues. Of course this can be mitigated with optimised setup/ EQ and if done correctly the 212/sub solution is as you say "hard to beat". I have found the sensitivity delta (212 vs 215) is insignificant and the 215RT is the only speaker I have heard that makes your "hard to beat" caveat necessary.

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post #29277 of 30237 Old 05-16-2015, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
All true but the integration of the subs and main speakers is an area where most home systems have issues. Of course this can be mitigated with optimised setup/ EQ and if done correctly the 212/sub solution is as you say "hard to beat". I have found the sensitivity delta (212 vs 215) is insignificant and the 215RT is the only speaker I have heard that makes your "hard to beat" caveat necessary.
Yes sub integration is very improtant and that is why many of us spend a lot of time in REW measuring and getting that integration right. As much as I like the 215RT, I garuantee it will not "beat" a 212HT/3OS LFU combo in any aspect including bass integration, let alone SPL. For the average user, yes the 215RT will usually give better results, but for those willing to spend the time to optimize sub placement and time alignment according to the in room response then the 215RT will lose. sorry

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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post #29278 of 30237 Old 05-16-2015, 05:36 PM
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This build will be the next level type setup

SEOS-24, BMS 4594ND, Dual AE TD18H+

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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post #29279 of 30237 Old 05-16-2015, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by lbrown105 View Post
...I guarantee it will not "beat" a 212HT/3OS LFU combo....
OK, for home theater, name me one other person that has 3 OSs? I mean really? You just blew us 1%s up with your .001% crazy self!

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post #29280 of 30237 Old 05-16-2015, 07:36 PM
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^ I don't know David those 24's you were running were sooo good at the show last month. I was super impressed! I think those qualifiy as 0.001%'s. Really good job on those subs!

Pre-Pro: Emotiva XMC-1, DSP: Mini DSP 2x4 balanced
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA7400, Lab Gruppen FP10000Q
Speakers: JTR Noesis 212HT (LCR), JTR Slant 8's (surrounds), 3 Orbit Shifter LFU's
Sources: PS3, HTPC, Dish Network
Projector: Epson 8350
Screen: Seymour XD AT 138" diagonal 16:9
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