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post #1 of 32 Old 08-02-2009, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I was told I should start a new thread, so here goes. I am very new to speakers and I originaly was looking at a lower budget, but things have gotten out of hand.

What are the JTR triple 8/12's like compared to JBL pro series 4428's and Mark Seatons catalysts? My room is 13' wide X 18' long X 7.6' high. What are the benifits from each speaker?

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/triple12ht.html
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/pro...at=BFS&ser=PRS
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/

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post #2 of 32 Old 08-02-2009, 07:19 PM
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Now this will be a good one. I have JTR Triple 12LF's and am curious about the comparisons as well.

--JK
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post #3 of 32 Old 08-02-2009, 07:25 PM
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My room size is quite similar but based on my budget, I'm targetting to get 3 x T8 2010 to replace my F,C,R. Even then a shootout would be great. Based on my reading, Seaton might have some advantage due to integrated amp with speaker so the matching had been taken care off. But then Catalyst is 3 times the price of JTR T8.
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post #4 of 32 Old 08-02-2009, 07:41 PM
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IMO the Catalysts would win out, but honestly your comparing completely different price brackets.
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post #5 of 32 Old 08-02-2009, 07:54 PM
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Based on your room size any of those should fit the bill SPL wise. What you will be paying extra for is a higher level of refinement, deeper frequency response, increased resolution, and exclusive to the Catalysts, built in amplification and active crossovers. Never seen those JBLs before but they certainly look capable as well except for losing in sensitivity by almost 7db to the least sensitive triple 8 (91 vs 98). The Catalysts cost the most but are also highest up the food chain in performance. If you're trying to keep your budget in check, higher sensitivity speakers will allow you to get away with less watts. I have experience with 888s and Triple 12LFs and 350 watts can get them loud! They will take much more but not required. It's all a series of compromises unless you go for the gusto but that costs.
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post #6 of 32 Old 08-02-2009, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poochymama View Post

IMO the Catalysts would win out, but honestly your comparing completely different price brackets.

But if you did not have to buy an amp for the catalysts, would it not work out to around similar prices b/c the other need a good quality amp to run them?
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Based on your room size any of those should fit the bill SPL wise. What you will be paying extra for is a higher level of refinement, deeper frequency response, increased resolution, and exclusive to the Catalysts, built in amplification and active crossovers. Never seen those JBLs before but they certainly look capable as well except for losing in sensitivity by almost 7db to the least sensitive triple 8 (91 vs 98). The Catalysts cost the most but are also highest up the food chain in performance.

The JBL's are twice a expensive as the Trple 8's, so I was expecting a little more quality sound from them. But I get lost in the resolution, responce and frequency talk. So looking at the specs is just looks like another language to me.

And I have to ask, if I was to get the Seatons, could you set them up yourself?

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post #7 of 32 Old 08-02-2009, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

But if you did not have to buy an amp for the catalysts, would it not work out to around similar prices b/c the other need a good quality amp to run them?

The JBL's are twice a expensive as the Trple 8's, so I was expecting a little more quality sound from them. But I get lost in the resolution, responce and frequency talk. So looking at the specs is just looks like another language to me.

And I have to ask, if I was to get the Seatons, could you set them up yourself?

There comes a point where you get into the law of diminishing returns. If you pay twice as much will you hear twice the improvement (not likely). With resolution, certain speakers will be able to resolve details more clearly. You could be listening to music or a movie and hear something stand out that you may not have noticed before. In terms of frequency the deeper a speaker goes on its own the less slack that a subwoofer has to pick up. In setting up Seatons they should be no more foreign than dealing with other pro audio gear mainly amps compared to consumer offerings.
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post #8 of 32 Old 08-02-2009, 09:31 PM
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[quote=JapanDave;16932550]
The JBL's are twice a expensive as the Trple 8's, so I was expecting a little more quality sound from them. But I get lost in the resolution, responce and frequency talk. So looking at the specs is just looks like another language to me.
QUOTE]

The JBL's are probably great speakers, but since the JTR's have much lower margins as a Professional/Internet Direct company you may be getting much more for you money with JTR vs. JBL, since the JBL speakers will go through a couple of middlemen on the way to the consumer.

The JTR's have been compared favorably in reviews to speakers costing 2 to 4 times as much. When paired with a decent subwoofer they should be fantastic in your room.

Supposedly the Catalysts are even better, but cost more. You may also want to take a look at Mark Seaton's Sparks which are a little lower in cost.
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post #9 of 32 Old 08-02-2009, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post

There comes a point where you get into the law of diminishing returns. If you pay twice as much will you hear twice the improvement (not likely). With resolution, certain speakers will be able to resolve details more clearly. You could be listening to music or a movie and hear something stand out that you may not have noticed before. In terms of frequency the deeper a speaker goes on its own the less slack that a subwoofer has to pick up. In setting up Seatons they should be no more foreign than dealing with other pro audio gear mainly amps compared to consumer offerings.

I guess that applies to a lot of things and me not being someone who has a tunned ear (although I love the sound of Mark Levinson in my Lexus 600hL, it sounds much better than my work car LS430 which just has the standard setup). That sounds good about setup.

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The JBL's are probably great speakers, but since the JTR's have much lower margins as a Professional/Internet Direct company you may be getting much more for you money with JTR vs. JBL, since the JBL speakers will go through a couple of middlemen on the way to the consumer.

The JTR's have been compared favorably in reviews to speakers costing 2 to 4 times as much. When paired with a decent subwoofer they should be fantastic in your room.

Supposedly the Catalysts are even better, but cost more. You may also want to take a look at Mark Seaton's Sparks which are a little lower in cost.

That is another thing, I have been recieving conflicting info on AMP's. Most of the higher end home theater AMP's are only putting out 250w RMS, so with speakers like the JTR with that much power how would you go about getting the most out of them?

If I was to go with the Seatons, I would go 3 catalysts up front and 2 sparks fro the rear, so would save me buying an AMP, which is good.

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post #10 of 32 Old 08-02-2009, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Ok, I was told I should start a new thread, so here goes. I am very new to speakers and I originaly was looking at a lower budget, but things have gotten out of hand.

What are the JTR triple 8/12's like compared to JBL pro series 4428's and Mark Seatons catalysts? My room is 13' wide X 18' long X 7.6' high. What are the benifits from each speaker?

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/triple12ht.html
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/pro...at=BFS&ser=PRS
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/


My room dimensions are identical to yours including the height and I'm running one of Seaton's SubMersive subwoofers, a pair of Sparks and 3 Catalysts (these still being made). So far I only have the sub and the Sparks but I can tell you they are incredible. I have not heard the JBL's or JTR's yet but any of those choices would be perfectly good especially for a first HT.

If you think Seaton's products interest you check with him to see about shipping to Japan. By the way, I'm using mine with the SC-09 with a simple adapter so no worries there if you already have the Pioneer AVR. It works beautifully.

Chris
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post #11 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post


That is another thing, I have been recieving conflicting info on AMP's. Most of the higher end home theater AMP's are only putting out 250w RMS, so with speakers like the JTR with that much power how would you go about getting the most out of them?

If we do the math for the JTR Triple 8's:

98 dB at 1 meter, with 3 db for each doubling of wattage with a goal of 105 db peaks. Each doubling of distance from the speaker causes a 6 db loss in SPL.

250 watts will give you 122 db at 1 meter, 116 at 2 meters, 112.4 at 3 meters, 109.9 at 4 meters and 108 at 5 meters, 106.4 at 6 meters. You will be able to hit reference level at pretty much anywhere in your room with this system.

They will take 1200 watts, but you don't need 114 db at the back of your room.
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post #12 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 01:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

If we do the math for the JTR Triple 8's:

98 dB at 1 meter, with 3 db for each doubling of wattage with a goal of 105 db peaks. Each doubling of distance from the speaker causes a 6 db loss in SPL.

250 watts will give you 122 db at 1 meter, 116 at 2 meters, 112.4 at 3 meters, 109.9 at 4 meters and 108 at 5 meters, 106.4 at 6 meters. You will be able to hit reference level at pretty much anywhere in your room with this system.

They will take 1200 watts, but you don't need 114 db at the back of your room.

Wow, I had no idea that 250W would be able to put out that much db on those speakers. And 114 db at the back of your room will probably make your ears bleed anyway! So it would be safe to say 250W of power will bring these speakers into ideal performance range?(sound quality speaking of corse)

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Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

My room dimensions are identical to yours including the height and I'm running one of Seaton's SubMersive subwoofers, a pair of Sparks and 3 Catalysts (these still being made). So far I only have the sub and the Sparks but I can tell you they are incredible. I have not heard the JBL's or JTR's yet but any of those choices would be perfectly good especially for a first HT.

If you think Seaton's products interest you check with him to see about shipping to Japan. By the way, I'm using mine with the SC-09 with a simple adapter so no worries there if you already have the Pioneer AVR. It works beautifully.

Chris

Your HT must rock your house! Once I settle on what speakers to get and if they are seatons I will give him a PM. If they can't be shipped I will go with my second choice.

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post #13 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
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Wow, I had no idea that 250W would be able to put out that much db on those speakers. And 114 db at the back of your room will probably make your ears bleed anyway! So it would be safe to say 250W of power will bring these speakers into ideal performance range?(sound quality speaking of corse)

I think that it would be safe to say that 250 watts will bring these speakers in to ideal performance range. In fact you would probably never need all 250 watts, but it having amplifiers capable of 250 watts gives you some headroom so that the amplifier is never driven to clipping range.

I decided to run the numbers for the JBL speakers:

With a 250 watt amplifier (by the way an amplifier that will put out 250 watts into the 8 ohm JBLs will put around 350-375 watts into the 4 ohm JTR's, For example my amplifiers that put out 150 watts into my 8 ohm speakers will put out 235 watts into my Triple 8's when they arrive)

115 db at 1 meter, 109 db at 2 meters, 105.4 db at 3 meters, 102.9 db at 4 meters and 101 db at 5 meters.

That is probably perfectly adequate for most people, as most people do not watch movies at reference level, but it does not leave you any headroom.

The JTR Triple 12's would add 2 db to all the numbers I posted above for the Triple 8's.

Like you said above, none of this output data really matters unless the sound quality is good at this high output.

As far as I know, the sound quality of all 3 of your choices should be excellent. The Mark Seaton designs are supposed to be incredible. However, if the JTR Triple 8's are anywhere near as good as the reviews say they are you will probably never need to upgrade. As posted above, you reach a point of diminishing returns where doubling or tripling the amount of money you spend will only give you a 10% improvement. (I don't know anything about the sound quality first hand as I am still waiting for mine to arrive)

You will probably not be unhappy with any of the choices on your list, but my vote would be for either the JTR's or the Seaton speakers over the JBL's in this case. There are other JBL speakers with performance characteristics in the same range as the JTR's or Seatons, but you will probably still get more for your money by using one of the internet direct companies than JBL (Not that there is anything wrong with JBL as a company)
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post #14 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the comparison on the db levels, I did not know what the ohm meant and this helps understanding a little better.

You are right about the value for money part, as the JBL are about $2,700 US a peice. But I have read that they are designed for the Japanese market in mind, what ever that means. (I think it is someone said they were essentially rolled early in the bass to compensate for the room gain in the smaller concrete houses here).

I could always go the JBL 4338, what would be db levels on these speakers,



Sensitivity 93dB(2.83V/1m)
Impedance Rated: 8 ohms
Frequency Response 35Hz~40kHz(-6dB)
Crossover Frequency(ies) 750Hz/9kHz
weight 145lbs

And these sell for $7,000 US each

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post #15 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 06:39 AM
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My jbl's are fanatstic but much different than the jbl's you listed. Much cheaper too. check out my sig for a pic.
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post #16 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 07:03 AM
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Quote:


Wow, I had no idea that 250W would be able to put out that much db on those speakers. And 114 db at the back of your room will probably make your ears bleed anyway! So it would be safe to say 250W of power will bring these speakers into ideal performance range?(sound quality speaking of corse)


250W is about +24dB of gain on ALL speaker

98 + 24 dB = 122 dB for those speakers...its all just math in the end here is the chart

2W = 3dB gain
4W = 6dB gain
8W = 9dB gain
16W = 12dB gain
32W = 15dB gain
64W = 18dB gain
128W = 21dB gain
256W = 24dB gain
512W = 27dB gain


btw, You can not go wrong with ANY choice here!! They all have superior SQ/Dynamic ranges.

Support your local AVS member and buy Seaton or JTRs

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post #17 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 08:46 AM
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Make sure you get a nice sub system to match the speakers. A balanced system is what makes it shine. Amplification is cheap which makes the JTR's much cheaper. Your room is small so even the Spark's would work well and let you save money for 2 or 4 subs. In your room I would rather have triple 8's or spark's with multiple subs than the 12's or catalyst with one sub.
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post #18 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 09:14 AM
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If you are looking at JBLPRO I would look into the LSR6332 You can find them new for 1/3 of what the cats cost and Harman uses them in the reference room. Keep in mind that the db numbers listed are for 1 speaker without room gain, 5 of any of them in room would be able to cause hearing damage quickly.

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post #19 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 09:17 AM
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A good high quality 5 chann amp would cost 2k or less new above that your mostly paying for the name.

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post #20 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

250W is about +24dB of gain on ALL speaker

98 + 24 dB = 122 dB for those speakers...its all just math in the end here is the chart

Except that this assumes no compression, which would be surprising. For example, an unnamed speaker (because it doesn't matter) has 105 dB sensitivity and a maximum continuous power rating of 100W (+20 dB) with peaks of 400W (+26 dB). Yet it's highest acoustical output is not 125 or 131 dB, but rather 121 dB. And that is starting from a sensitivity of 105 dB.

On movies, this speaker doesn't sound compressed to me because even Reference Level is 16 dB below their rated 100W, so not in their compressed high end. Even with music with full peaks, they sound pretty darn good and much better than most speakers, but there is always better (and much more expensive) around the corner.

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post #21 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 03:39 PM
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My Emotiva XPA-5 amp drives my Triple 12LF's just fine. I may need some more tweaking in my system and really need to match the sub to the speakers yet.

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post #22 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio0947 View Post

If you are looking at JBLPRO I would look into the LSR6332 You can find them new for 1/3 of what the cats cost and Harman uses them in the reference room. Keep in mind that the db numbers listed are for 1 speaker without room gain, 5 of any of them in room would be able to cause hearing damage quickly.

Yes, those would be a great choice.

Also true, unless there's only one speaker in the room, one needs to think about the cumulative effect of multiple speakers outputting high sound levels.

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post #23 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 06:27 PM
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If looks of the speakers don't matter much and I'm guessing it is not a top priority based on the speakers you are looking at then make sure you take a very good look at the Pro JBL's. Being in Japan your choices are going to be greater then for someone in the states so take your time and do some listening if you can.

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If looks of the speakers don't matter much and I'm guessing it is not a top priority based on the speakers you are looking at then make sure you take a very good look at the Pro JBL's. Being in Japan your choices are going to be greater then for someone in the states so take your time and do some listening if you can.

So you're not feelin the furniture grade finish on the JBLs huh?
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post #25 of 32 Old 08-03-2009, 08:55 PM
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So you're not feelin the furniture grade finish on the JBLs huh?


I'm just saying that if looks are not a priority then the JBL pro line is worth considering. They are not furniture by any stretch. If I was in Japan and wanted furniture grade speakers I'd be listening to these.


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post #26 of 32 Old 08-05-2009, 03:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

My jbl's are fanatstic but much different than the jbl's you listed. Much cheaper too. check out my sig for a pic.

Looks great!
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

250W is about +24dB of gain on ALL speaker

98 + 24 dB = 122 dB for those speakers...its all just math in the end here is the chart

2W = 3dB gain
4W = 6dB gain
8W = 9dB gain
16W = 12dB gain
32W = 15dB gain
64W = 18dB gain
128W = 21dB gain
256W = 24dB gain
512W = 27dB gain


btw, You can not go wrong with ANY choice here!! They all have superior SQ/Dynamic ranges.

Support your local AVS member and buy Seaton or JTRs

Thanks, that is good to know. I like all three speakers so it is going to be hard to choose.
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Make sure you get a nice sub system to match the speakers. A balanced system is what makes it shine. Amplification is cheap which makes the JTR's much cheaper. Your room is small so even the Spark's would work well and let you save money for 2 or 4 subs. In your room I would rather have triple 8's or spark's with multiple subs than the 12's or catalyst with one sub.

I am looking at at least two subs, I may even go with more if it is lacking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio0947 View Post

If you are looking at JBLPRO I would look into the LSR6332 You can find them new for 1/3 of what the cats cost and Harman uses them in the reference room. Keep in mind that the db numbers listed are for 1 speaker without room gain, 5 of any of them in room would be able to cause hearing damage quickly.

I don't think they have those in Japan, but I will have a look. Thanks
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Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

My Emotiva XPA-5 amp drives my Triple 12LF's just fine. I may need some more tweaking in my system and really need to match the sub to the speakers yet.

--JK

I have only heard great stuff about these triple 8's and 12's. It is just making my decission harder.

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Originally Posted by mikeronesia View Post

I'm just saying that if looks are not a priority then the JBL pro line is worth considering. They are not furniture by any stretch. If I was in Japan and wanted furniture grade speakers I'd be listening to these.


I am not bothered by looks as they will be hidden. I would rather spend more money on sound quality then have a peice of furniture b/c of that. I see you live in Japan as well.

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post #27 of 32 Old 08-05-2009, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

I am not bothered by looks as they will be hidden. I would rather spend more money on sound quality then have a peice of furniture b/c of that.

Amen to that...

Having heard the Seaton Catalysts/Sparks and owning the JTR T12LF's and T8's I can fully endorse either of those for HT or music listening. I imagine that the JBL's are good as well but haven't heard them.

I have owned many HiFi speakers and find these new generation speakers with their pro audio/movie theater lineage much better for my uses.

HToM

"Well, la di fricken da."!
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post #28 of 32 Old 08-05-2009, 05:39 PM
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RMK whats the size of your HT? Its looks AAA+++ imo!!
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post #29 of 32 Old 08-05-2009, 06:13 PM
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RMK whats the size of your HT? Its looks AAA+++ imo!!

Thanks ... It's approx 3600^3

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post #30 of 32 Old 08-10-2009, 08:07 AM
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I vote for the Seaton Catalysts or Sparks paired with dual Seaton Submersives or dual SVS PB13 Ultra's. A match made in heaven!

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
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No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
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