Should center channel speaker wire be same length as fronts? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 09-29-2009, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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As the title says, I know the whole thing about how the fronts and rears (5.1 setup here) should each have the same ( or at least very close) length of speaker wire running to them, but should I match the center length to the two fronts or does that not matter? This occurred to me last night while watching a BD, and I could make an argument for either side of the issue from my standpoint.
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post #2 of 41 Old 09-29-2009, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyQuattro View Post

As the title says, I know the whole thing about how the fronts and rears (5.1 setup here) should each have the same ( or at least very close) length of speaker wire running to them, but should I match the center length to the two fronts or does that not matter? This occurred to me last night while watching a BD, and I could make an argument for either side of the issue from my standpoint.

Nope. The speed of an electrical signal is almost the speed of light so it would take a very loooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggg wire to cause any delay.
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post #3 of 41 Old 09-29-2009, 08:48 AM
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The difference in distance from the listener to the drivers of the speakers will be a much bigger factor in delay. Even a 1mm difference is distance is far more significant than any cable length. Electricity travels 1ft per nanosec. Sound travels about 1ft per msec.

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post #4 of 41 Old 09-29-2009, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnergyOwner View Post

The difference in distance from the listener to the drivers of the speakers will be a much bigger factor in delay. Even a 1mm difference is distance is far more significant than any cable length. Electricity travels 1ft per nanosec. Sound travels about 1ft per msec.

I think 1mm is highly exagerated since sound travels 300mm/sec and 1mm is just such a small distance.
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post #5 of 41 Old 09-29-2009, 12:27 PM
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There is proof that people who listen faster can hear the delay from side to side in any type of system down to .5 mm/second

This data is brought to you by Monsterhype cable.
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post #6 of 41 Old 09-29-2009, 12:32 PM
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At first I though one of you was joking (about 1mm), but actually a tiny difference in seating location would likely be far more significant. Not only because of the speed of sound vs electricity, but also because of the way sound radiates (in all directions), energy diminishes in proportion to the square of the distance. link, for example
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post #7 of 41 Old 09-29-2009, 12:34 PM
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The center speaker should be identical to the left and right, at the same elevation, and in the same orientation. The length of the wire for all three should be determined by aesthetics: what's the shortest length of wire that can be used and still look good, i.e. hidden.

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post #8 of 41 Old 09-29-2009, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3db View Post

I think 1mm is highly exagerated since sound travels 300mm/sec and 1mm is just such a small distance.

My point is not that 1mm is highly significant in absolute terms but that such a small distance is even far greater than any cable length. 1mm in sound = 1km in electrical speed. And its 340m/sec, not mm.

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post #9 of 41 Old 09-29-2009, 02:25 PM
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The listening room must be a perfect cube, the wall surfaces must be highly damped and the substructure framing must be extremely rigid. The entire stucture interior must be anechoic down to -100dbm.

The humidity must be maintained at exactly 20%. The altitude must be between 500 and 1000ft ASL. The ambient temperature must be maintained at an optimal 72 degrees.

The listener's ear canals must be devoid of visible and or excessive wax accumulation. Listener's BP must be between 100/55 to a max of 120/75.

Bone density testing (specifically the crainuim) should be performed on all listeners entering the reproduction area so as to calculate the ability of each individual's skull to resonate at the same frequency to minimize the "coloring" of the perceived sound.

The BMI of the listener must be no more than 15. Listener's clothing must be limited to a single layer of 200 thread count (max) refined cotton. Synthetic material generally absorb higher levels of HF audio.

No acoustically absorbable materials are permitted on any single surface.

All speakers must be laser aligned to set physical placement (pitch, yaw and azimuth) at the optimal vortex of the cone axis to allow exact time constant balancing between all drivers.

The requisite wiring schemes have previously been covered.

After said adjustments have been completed, Barry Manilow will sound fine.
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post #10 of 41 Old 09-29-2009, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyQuattro View Post

As the title says, I know the whole thing about how the fronts and rears (5.1 setup here) should each have the same ( or at least very close) length of speaker wire running to them, but should I match the center length to the two fronts or does that not matter? This occurred to me last night while watching a BD, and I could make an argument for either side of the issue from my standpoint.

This statement is blatantly false, and whoever sold that load of garbage to you should be shot (or at least off your christmas list).

Speaker wire length makes absolutely 0 difference unless you are using a very small wire (like 18ga) to go a very long distance. Even then, it has nothing to do with the "speed" of the sound going to your speakers, it has to do with the degradation of signal in a small, crappy wire going a long distance. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just ignorant, or trying to sell you more wire. It's the same smoke and mirrors garbage that Monster cable relies on to sell it's product for the price it gets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

The center speaker should be identical to the left and right, at the same elevation, and in the same orientation. The length of the wire for all three should be determined by aesthetics: what's the shortest length of wire that can be used and still look good, i.e. hidden.

DS-21 is right about using the shortest amount of wire to get the job done. What he's wrong about is the center being identical to the left and right, and the elevation and orientation. All that's a load of BS. There are plenty of people using bi-amped floorstanding front speakers with an LCR or just plain center channel speaker in the middle.
Your center channel should ideally be mounted below, behind or above your screen, dead center and pointing at the main listening seat at 0 degrees. Most LCR's and Center Channels recommend turning the speaker "on its side" for orientation.
As for your R and L channel, they should be on either side of your screen at a 45-degree angle from each other with the axis being the main seating position. If they are satellites, they should be even with the center of the screen and oriented towards the main seat (ie. if they display is tilted, they should tilt with it at the same angle, as should your center channel)
Ideally, all your speakers should be voice matched, so try and make sure you stick with one brand and one specific line of speakers to avoid timber matching issues, but by NO means do they all need to be identical to your center.
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post #11 of 41 Old 09-29-2009, 08:30 PM
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Goros,

You state that its ok to have it ABOVE the TV, I may have to do this in my setup because the cabinet of my TV stand is not big enough to hold a center channel speakers any bigger than 4.5 inches tall...

So if I put say a Polk CS10 on a custom shelf above my TV with 2 Klipsch VB-15's for my fronts on either side of my TV that would work?

(Pics are with my current/old speakers that will be replaced soon with the speakers above)



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post #12 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goros View Post

DS-21 is right about using the shortest amount of wire to get the job done. What he's wrong about is the center being identical to the left and right, and the elevation and orientation. All that's a load of BS.

No, it is the only truly high-fidelity approach. Admittedly, that is not important for some people.

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Originally Posted by goros View Post

There are plenty of people using bi-amped floorstanding front speakers with an LCR or just plain center channel speaker in the middle.

There are also plenty of people who think President Obama was born in Kenya. And there are also plenty of people (no doubt a large overlap with the above group) who think 9/11 was either perpetrated by the US government or by "the Jews." Fortunately, sheer numbers of adherents do not make wrong right.


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Originally Posted by goros View Post

Your center channel should ideally be mounted below, behind or above your screen, dead center and pointing at the main listening seat at 0 degrees.

That depends on the speaker, of course. For instance, the speakers I use, big Tannoy Dual Concentrics (identical across the front, in the same orientation) have a cancellation notch in the treble on axis. So they are best used at 20-40 deg off axis, where the notch fills in. I mount them high so that the on axis response with that treble notch fires into a diffuse panel. That also allows me to center the screen under the center channel.

Some other speakers are better used on-axis, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goros View Post

As for your R and L channel, they should be on either side of your screen at a 45-degree angle from each other with the axis being the main seating position.

Don't you think that depends quite a bit on the size of the screen, as well as one's desired soundstage width? My screen is only 46" but my left and right speakers are 16 feet apart. With my constant-directivity speakers, that gives me a very wide, deep, and palpable soundstage (I do all my listening in DPL2; with just two channels they would be too wide apart) and a wider coverage area than were they closer together.

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Originally Posted by goros View Post

Ideally, all your speakers should be voice matched,

The only way to truly "voice match" a speaker is to make it identical to another speaker. Just using the same drivers and slapping the same nameplate on does not guarantee anything except for sonic differences if the topology or orientation is different.

And all of them needn't match. The surrounds are far less critical than the front stage. But kludging the front stage together with disparate speakers is always a mistake. I don't care if the mismatched speaker is the left, right, or center. Or if all three are different. Going outside the paradigm of absolutely identical front speakers is an error.

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post #13 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyQuattro View Post

As the title says, I know the whole thing about how the fronts and rears (5.1 setup here) should each have the same ( or at least very close) length of speaker wire running to them, but should I match the center length to the two fronts or does that not matter? This occurred to me last night while watching a BD, and I could make an argument for either side of the issue from my standpoint.

Manufacturers recommend the front speakers have the same wire lengths so that the damping factors on the speakers are the same. You can also adjust this by using shorter lengths of smaller gauge wire on the center. So if you have 10 feet of AWG 14 on the sides, you can use 6.3 feet of AWG 16 or 4 feet of AWG 18 in the center, which is what I do.

The surrounds normally have much longer wire lengths, and this is fine.
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post #14 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by gsmollin View Post

Manufacturers recommend the front speakers have the same wire lengths so that the damping factors on the speakers are the same. You can also adjust this by using shorter lengths of smaller gauge wire on the center. So if you have 10 feet of AWG 14 on the sides, you can use 6.3 feet of AWG 16 or 4 feet of AWG 18 in the center, which is what I do.

The surrounds normally have much longer wire lengths, and this is fine.

This is complete garbage. You've been sold a bill of goods by some fool looking to sell speaker wire. Electricity in copper moves at close to the speed of light, and the impedance boost of even stupidly long lengths of wire (over 250') is less than .01 ohms (depending on the gauge). Don't believe it.

There are plenty of articles debunking all this, but this is a good one, with facts to back it up click here
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post #15 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

No, it is the only truly high-fidelity approach. Admittedly, that is not important for some people.

I don't disagree as my system will be using 7 identical speakers, but you made a blanket statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

That depends on the speaker, of course. For instance, the speakers I use, big Tannoy Dual Concentrics (identical across the front, in the same orientation) have a cancellation notch in the treble on axis. So they are best used at 20-40 deg off axis, where the notch fills in. I mount them high so that the on axis response with that treble notch fires into a diffuse panel. That also allows me to center the screen under the center channel.

Again I agree that it depends on the speaker, but as a general rule of thumb (and by both Dolby and THX standards) this is how it's set up. Don't put it behind the screen unless you have an audio-transparent screen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Some other speakers are better used on-axis, of course.

Again, depends on brand, but you can't make sweeping statements like you did in your first post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Don't you think that depends quite a bit on the size of the screen, as well as one's desired soundstage width? My screen is only 46" but my left and right speakers are 16 feet apart. With my constant-directivity speakers, that gives me a very wide, deep, and palpable soundstage (I do all my listening in DPL2; with just two channels they would be too wide apart) and a wider coverage area than were they closer together.

That's why they introduced DSX wide, so you can add 2 more speakers on the farthest sides of the front of the room and widen the soundstage. You need to remember that content is filmed and mixed/engineered to accommodate THX or Dolby standards, and changing the positioning can change the way the sound is meant to "sound". Not that it would sound bad, but not necessarily what the originator of the content intended. DSX processes the data in a way that makes the wider soundstage more immersive, without losing the original intent or quality of sound.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

The only way to truly "voice match" a speaker is to make it identical to another speaker. Just using the same drivers and slapping the same nameplate on does not guarantee anything except for sonic differences if the topology or orientation is different.

That might be true for some of the cheaper brands, but most quality brands of speaker make sure their series are timbre/voice matched. THX says that any speaker which meets THX standards can be mixed with any other brand and all of them will work 100% fine together. I don't really think this is true, but it's possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

And all of them needn't match. The surrounds are far less critical than the front stage. But kludging the front stage together with disparate speakers is always a mistake. I don't care if the mismatched speaker is the left, right, or center. Or if all three are different. Going outside the paradigm of absolutely identical front speakers is an error.

I agree that the front LR should be matched, but am not sold on the center. It contradicts decades of development and the very nature of the center channel is it sends a completely different mix of data to the center channel speaker versus the sides. While all my speakers are identical, I don't think it's the right answer for everyone.

As for the surrounds, I think all should match the fronts and center (personally) but more because the bass signals that your surrounds don't use go to your subwoofer when your crossovers are set. If your surrounds can't handle bass to ~80hz-100hz, you lose the surround effect because the subwoofer will reproduce sound over 100hz which can be detected as directional. Sounds behind you will fire from the sub which might not be, and you can point at it and say "it came from there". Not good.
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post #16 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattf2686 View Post

Goros,

You state that its ok to have it ABOVE the TV, I may have to do this in my setup because the cabinet of my TV stand is not big enough to hold a center channel speakers any bigger than 4.5 inches tall...

So if I put say a Polk CS10 on a custom shelf above my TV with 2 Klipsch VB-15's for my fronts on either side of my TV that would work?

(Pics are with my current/old speakers that will be replaced soon with the speakers above)

Yes, it will work. I won't advise you to mix a polk with klipsch in the front soundstage because you'll probably find the timbre and sound characteristics could be drastically different. (voice matching)

Look here for dolby's setup (which calls for below) and look here for THX (which calls for below as worst quality, above as better, and behind the screen as best, but only if you have a transparent screen and a projector.) Somewhere in the middle is your best bet.
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post #17 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist View Post

The listening room must be a perfect cube, the wall surfaces must be highly damped and the substructure framing must be extremely rigid. The entire stucture interior must be anechoic down to -100dbm.

The humidity must be maintained at exactly 20%. The altitude must be between 500 and 1000ft ASL. The ambient temperature must be maintained at an optimal 72 degrees.

The listener's ear canals must be devoid of visible and or excessive wax accumulation. Listener's BP must be between 100/55 to a max of 120/75.

Bone density testing (specifically the crainuim) should be performed on all listeners entering the reproduction area so as to calculate the ability of each individual's skull to resonate at the same frequency to minimize the "coloring" of the perceived sound.

The BMI of the listener must be no more than 15. Listener's clothing must be limited to a single layer of 200 thread count (max) refined cotton. Synthetic material generally absorb higher levels of HF audio.

No acoustically absorbable materials are permitted on any single surface.

All speakers must be laser aligned to set physical placement (pitch, yaw and azimuth) at the optimal vortex of the cone axis to allow exact time constant balancing between all drivers.

The requisite wiring schemes have previously been covered.

After said adjustments have been completed, Barry Manilow will sound fine.

Funniest thing I've read in a while.
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post #18 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CincyQuattro View Post

As the title says, I know the whole thing about how the fronts and rears (5.1 setup here) should each have the same ( or at least very close) length of speaker wire running to them, but should I match the center length to the two fronts or does that not matter? This occurred to me last night while watching a BD, and I could make an argument for either side of the issue from my standpoint.

The only place where I've seen wire length matched to any exacting degree is in old supercomputer design, where you had discrete CPU's and Memory modules connected by wire. In those cases (Cray, etc.) there was an argument for this, since the frequency of the signal was so high that the AC sinusoid component would degrade the digital 0 - 1 waveforms thresholds just enough in some cases that a "0" wouldn't be recognized correctly and neither would a "1".

In the case of the Cray X-MP this was at 105Mhz speeds, so it outstrips the typical speaker frequency demands (14 Hz to 20 KHz) by almost 5 orders of magnitude or about 5000 times. So I don't think you need to worry about wire length unless you're looping it once around your city.

Of course, that Cray X-MP had the processing power of an XBox (not the 360), which shows the benefits of miniturization.
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post #19 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goros View Post

Yes, it will work. I won't advise you to mix a polk with klipsch in the front soundstage because you'll probably find the timbre and sound characteristics could be drastically different. (voice matching)

Look here for dolby's setup (which calls for below) and look here for THX (which calls for below as worst quality, above as better, and behind the screen as best, but only if you have a transparent screen and a projector.) Somewhere in the middle is your best bet.



Interesting... Are there methods of raising the television without mounting it?

And how would you go about mounting the Center above the TV and angling it down a bit? are there special mounts that would fit say a CS10?
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post #20 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 03:23 PM
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my dad this with his lcd. we just got a plain black shelf and a couple brackets from home depot. mountet it above the tv, but so that the shelf is just in line with the top of the tv. put the speaker on the shelf with a couple peices of rubber under the rear of it to angle it down. works great for him and looks good as well.

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post #21 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 04:03 PM
 
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Just buy or make a shelf to mount the center above the TV. Pretty simple.

As for the THX certified mix 'n match and all works together that is bull as it cannot possibly have the same characteristics.

As to matching the surrounds with the fronts, no it is not mandatory, but there are valid reasons to do so and having the bass response being directional is the first time I have ever heard something like that. For most movie watching the surrounds not matching really isn't an issue. The only time it is noticeable is when listening to music recorded in surround such as concert HD DVD or BD or SACD etc...

The above being said, as an example, having 5 identical 2 driver bookshelf speakers and using 1 laying on its side (why would you do that anyway?) is not the way to do it as the speaker was designed to stand upright. The sound will not be what it should be. The best way to 'match' all the speakers is to make sure all are using the same tweeter. The tweeter is the ultimate deciding factor on how a speaker sounds and different tweeters in a speaker system will produce unmatched sounds.

No to get this thread back on topic and to answer the OP's original question. The reason the same length wire is to be used is very very simple and I am amazed nobody here has mentioned it yet, and that is the attenuation of the signal. These guys are right when they talk about the speed of electrical pulses, but it is attenuation that plays the largest role. Ideally you want ALL the speaker wires to have the same potential signal strength feeding the speakers. This is why using 10gauge wires for short runs are no improvement over 16 gauge for the same distance. However, for the surrounds which are a fartger distance the same 16 gauge wires will have more attenuation and therefore less signal reaching the speaker. This would be the reason to use the 10 gauge wire. This is an example only but AVR manufactuerers simplify this by having individual channel level adjustments where one can still use the 16 gauge wires for the rear, same as for the fronts by being able to increase the power level. For this reason (and the answer to the question) the center channel speaker can have the wire at whatever length is best for the user.

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post #22 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

Just buy or make a shelf to mount the center above the TV. Pretty simple.

Don't buy a shelf. Use a speaker mount as you won't pick up any vibration from the shelf into the sound mix. If you get a center channel speaker or an LCR to use as a center, you will need 2 mounts in order to put it on it's side. They are adjustable for direction also, so you can tilt them up or down, as they should point at the primary seat at 0 degrees.

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Originally Posted by Splicer10 View Post

As for the THX certified mix 'n match and all works together that is bull as it cannot possibly have the same characteristics.

Per the THX wesbite
Quote:
Originally Posted by THX Website View Post

Can you mix and match speakers?
Yes, mixing and matching speaker brands and styles is fine. In fact, the whole concept of THX certification is based on the idea of being able to mix and match components from different manufacturers. The THX certification process standardizes all electrical and output parameters, so that all THX Certified speakers and receivers work together.

You can potentially have box speakers for the Front and in-wall or in-ceiling speakers for the Surrounds. However, THX recommends that you keep groups of speakers similar. This means, the Front speakers should be from the same manufacturer and designed to work together. And, the Surround Left and Right speakers should also be identical to each other, as should the Surround Back speakers.

Personally I think it's not possible, but who am I to question the creator of Star Wars?

Quote:


As to matching the surrounds with the fronts, no it is not mandatory, but there are valid reasons to do so and having the bass response being directional is the first time I have ever heard something like that. For most movie watching the surrounds not matching really isn't an issue. The only time it is noticeable is when listening to music recorded in surround such as concert HD DVD or BD or SACD etc...

Bass above 100hz is directional to the human ear. In the past, receivers did not send bass information that the surrounds couldn't reproduce to the subwoofer. He has a receiver that allows each speaker's crossover to be set individually, for all channels. Hence when he sets his surround crossovers to ~125hz, all bass below 125hz that is sent on a surround channel will go to the sub, and you will be able to tell where it's coming from. Generally speaking, if you can point to your sub during a movie, you're doing it wrong.

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The above being said, as an example, having 5 identical 2 driver bookshelf speakers and using 1 laying on its side (why would you do that anyway?) is not the way to do it as the speaker was designed to stand upright. The sound will not be what it should be. The best way to 'match' all the speakers is to make sure all are using the same tweeter. The tweeter is the ultimate deciding factor on how a speaker sounds and different tweeters in a speaker system will produce unmatched sounds.

You wouldn't lay a bookshelf on its side. Only a MTM or a MTTM or a MMTTMM should be laid on it's side. These are typically known as LCR's because you can mount them as left (vertical), center (horizontal), or right (vertical), and they are designed to be used in either configuration.

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No to get this thread back on topic and to answer the OP's original question. The reason the same length wire is to be used is very very simple and I am amazed nobody here has mentioned it yet, and that is the attenuation of the signal. These guys are right when they talk about the speed of electrical pulses, but it is attenuation that plays the largest role. Ideally you want ALL the speaker wires to have the same potential signal strength feeding the speakers. This is why using 10gauge wires for short runs are no improvement over 16 gauge for the same distance. However, for the surrounds which are a fartger distance the same 16 gauge wires will have more attenuation and therefore less signal reaching the speaker. This would be the reason to use the 10 gauge wire. This is an example only but AVR manufactuerers simplify this by having individual channel level adjustments where one can still use the 16 gauge wires for the rear, same as for the fronts by being able to increase the power level. For this reason (and the answer to the question) the center channel speaker can have the wire at whatever length is best for the user.

This is the dumbest block of text ever. Attenuation has nothing to do with the OP's original question. The op's situation will CAUSE attenuation if he adds extra long wires to the front speakers to match the back speakers. While it's true that signal does degrade over long distances on smaller gauge wires, his statement was "I know that the front and rear speaker wires have to be the same length, but what about the center?". They DON'T have to be. All the wires to all 7 speakers can be different lengths.

While the rears DO have to be a sufficient gauge (12ga has less than .1% attenuation at 50') the fronts could be 16ga provided they are only going up to 20 or so feet. Use all 12ga copper speaker wire for all connections and keep the wires as short as possible. If you get over 50' in length for one of your surrounds, you can upgrade that wire to 10ga.

For all intents and purposes, you could have a different gauge wire for all 7 speakers provided that they are thick enough to avoid signal loss at the distance the signal has to travel. I don't recommend that, and it's a waste of time IMO, but there will be NO DIFFERENCE IN SOUND "SPEED" OR QUALITY BY USING ALL THE SAME LENGTH WIRE. (just make sure the wire is the right gauge for the distance). The only distance that you need to worry about is how far your speakers are from the primary listening position. Your receiver will make up that difference when you run Audessey, which is the only thing you need to worry about. Use the least amount of wire you can, make it all 12ga, and call it good.

Read the link above to roger russell's article about all the myths of the audio industry. Then when dumb stuff like this falls out of someone's mouth you'll already know it's hot air and marketing garbage designed by people to upsell stupid quantities of extra (and useless) product.

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Enjoy what you have. As long as YOU are happy that is all that matters.

The most accurate thing, and still not 100%. You will be happier if you do it right the first time.
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post #23 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mattf2686 View Post

Interesting... Are there methods of raising the television without mounting it?

And how would you go about mounting the Center above the TV and angling it down a bit? are there special mounts that would fit say a CS10?

Peerless 731's x2 - use 2 of them to mount a center channel or LCR on it's side. They will also allow you to tilt them down. As for the tv, leave it where it is unless you want to wall mount it.
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post #24 of 41 Old 09-30-2009, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by gsmollin View Post

Manufacturers recommend the front speakers have the same wire lengths so that the damping factors on the speakers are the same. You can also adjust this by using shorter lengths of smaller gauge wire on the center. So if you have 10 feet of AWG 14 on the sides, you can use 6.3 feet of AWG 16 or 4 feet of AWG 18 in the center, which is what I do.

The surrounds normally have much longer wire lengths, and this is fine.

That is false!

As posted by others wire length has zero impact on speakers (with in reason, meaning 10 feet or 15 feet doesnt matter, if surrounds are 30 to 50 feet then its just the gauge that matters and that is based on length).


People are confused enough in this hobby and some of you push the BS even further. Its unfair to those trying to learn just the simple things.

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Originally Posted by goros View Post

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Originally Posted by THX Website View Post

THX recommends that you keep groups of speakers similar. This means, the Front speakers should be from the same manufacturer and designed to work together. And, the Surround Left and Right speakers should also be identical to each other, as should the Surround Back speakers.

As I had already said:
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

As for the THX certified mix 'n match and all works together that is bull as it cannot possibly have the same characteristics.

This means that you cannot mix 'n match large and small speakers even if they are THX certified as they will have different characteristics.


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Originally Posted by goros View Post

This is the dumbest block of text ever. Attenuation has nothing to do with the OP's original question. his statement was "I know that the front and rear speaker wires have to be the same length, but what about the center?". They DON'T have to be. All the wires to all 7 speakers can be different lengths.

And I never stated attenuation had anything to do with the OP's opiginal question. The OP never asked about all 7 speakers or even all 5 speakers wire length so why bring it up? You obviously did not read (or at least did not comprehend) what was written since this was the very last sentence I wrote in the paragraph:
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

the center channel speaker can have the wire at whatever length is best for the user.

...which is EXACTLY the answer to the OP's original question as I had already stated.

So in closing, reading comprehension is key to going thru these forums. You need to work on yours. I know you self proclaim yourself to be the goros of all that is audio but please do not repeat what was already said and act as if you are the only one who said it or are the only one intelligent enough to have said it.

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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

People are confused enough in this hobby and some of you push the BS even further. Its unfair to those trying to learn just the simple things.

AMEN!
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post #26 of 41 Old 10-01-2009, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

And I never stated attenuation had anything to do with the OP's opiginal question. The OP never asked about all 7 speakers or even all 5 speakers wire length so why bring it up? You obviously did not read (or at least did not comprehend) what was written since this was the very last sentence I wrote in the paragraph:

...which is EXACTLY the answer to the OP's original question as I had already stated.

So in closing, reading comprehension is key to going thru these forums. You need to work on yours. I know you self proclaim yourself to be the goros of all that is audio but please do not repeat what was already said and act as if you are the only one who said it or are the only one intelligent enough to have said it.

Wow, epeen fail.

you posted this
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Originally Posted by Splicer010 View Post

No to get this thread back on topic and to answer the OP's original question. The reason the same length wire is to be used is very very simple and I am amazed nobody here has mentioned it yet, and that is the attenuation of the signal. These guys are right when they talk about the speed of electrical pulses, but it is attenuation that plays the largest role. Ideally you want ALL the speaker wires to have the same potential signal strength feeding the speakers.

Maybe you need to take a class in writing comprehension? It looks an awful lot like you posted about wire lengths and attenuation to me, but maybe my reading comprehension is fail. Either that, or your run-on wall of text was poorly written and you need to go back and reword it so it makes sense...because you go from wire lengths to wire gauge, but your paragraph is still awful.

While your points aren't wrong (except everything about wire length), you explain them poorly, don't group them into paragraphs properly, and in general make no sense. Were that stuff to fall out of your mouth in public (verbally) instead of on a forum, people would be nominating you to wear a helmet and get on the short bus.

You start talking about using the same length wire to maintain attenuation, which is crap. Hands down, no argument. Then, you switch to talking about gauge of wire, without really changing what you are talking about or explaining it clearly. In the end, you do say the right thing, "use whatever works best", but that's vague and with all the other run-on junk before it, is still confusing.

I brought up all the other stuff because you started your reply with "the reason the same length wire is to be used is very very simple...etc". It's crap. You're just reinforcing falsehoods. And I talked about all the other speakers to prove the point that there is NO REASON TO USE THE SAME LENGTH WIRE TO ANY SPEAKER, EVER.

End all - get 12ga wire, install the shortest length possible to all speakers, and enjoy. Really not that hard.
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post #27 of 41 Old 10-01-2009, 06:41 AM
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I feel sorry for the OP....Im sure he is reading this and saying "I thought it was a simple question, I hate to think AVS members just fight all the time now".

A link like the following explains everything the OP needs to know.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

The back and forth on here between us is less about the OPs question and more about us

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #28 of 41 Old 10-01-2009, 06:44 AM
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Yep.

And that article is also linked in one of my first posts on this thread.

And then referenced again later, in this same thread. I'm starting to think no one reads anything.

I thought this place would be full of people who did lots of research before talking and that would be guru's.

I've had more people pick fights with me over stuff I was right on than on any forum I've ever been on.

Penn, can we be friends and not argue ever?

Thanks
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post #29 of 41 Old 10-01-2009, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by goros View Post

Yep.

And that article is also linked in one of my first posts on this thread.

And then referenced again later, in this same thread. I'm starting to think no one reads anything.

I thought this place would be full of people who did lots of research before talking and that would be guru's.

I've had more people pick fights with me over stuff I was right on than on any forum I've ever been on.

Penn, can we be friends and not argue ever?

Thanks

hehe, I meant to post that the link is in the thread already but I like to keep the link name exposed so everyone knows exactly what it is....Click here sometimes reminds me of spam in emails Nothing against you at all or any intent to say you are trying to link spam.



As for being friends. ABSOLUTELY but you have to realize my best friends and I have some of the biggest debates

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #30 of 41 Old 10-01-2009, 07:32 AM
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I was talking to Monk, and he is quite sure it is positively necessary for the lengths of all speaker wires to be equal to a fraction of a millimeter.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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