JBL Pro Cenima Which model??? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Thanks Chris, I am trying to explain to the guys here that the horns are not harsh but more laid back when setup correctly just like you described.

The problem is that most people equate horns to lower level Klipsch speakers, and do not realize that all horns are not created equal.

I have visited some very well known sound/mixing studios, all of them use horn drivers in some form...and sound excellent.

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post #182 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 12:09 PM
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SO, MK if these were mounted above the screen instead of behind the screen they might yield better results? That would work for me and save money AND yeild better video image as well. I still wonder about the 20's as they are smaller and might physically be a better fit.
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post #183 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 01:04 PM
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If something that is thx certified...would that mean it sounded good enough or played loud enough or both.

I think I am gonna give a pair of the 8320's for surrounds a shot... if I like them, I'll be getting another pair for my rear surrounds...and then go for the 3677's for the L/C/R later...I have the bipole aperion series 5 for the sides and 4b's for the rears. The 4b's just aren't enough. The 5t and 5c are the front stage which will be replaced by the 3677's.
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post #184 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mrcoop View Post

If something that is thx certified...would that mean it sounded good enough or played loud enough or both.

Not sure about pro audio, but I know with standard home audio THX Cert means that it meets THX requirements and has the ability to playback at a certain level... that does NOT mean it's going to sound good, especially not to you...




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post #185 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 01:36 PM
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I have never tried my surrounds as mains. I am selling off all my gear and trying out another system. How much can you guys buy the 3622N's for? I will sell mine less than that being used. I will keep you guys update as well. I am going to order Maggies too just to try them in my room with even better amplification than before so maybe they can get more dynamic(I have no idea how loud maggies can play or how much power they can take). On the opposite end of the scale I am trying either bigger JBL's or some other monster speaker(Danley sound labs).

If I were to try these as mains I would leave them as intended(angled down), put them behind a screen(or above) and shhot them where the horn goes over your head and the woofer at your ears. I am a firm believer in processor, amps, speaker matching and not just in power. I would never get these if your reciever or processor is known to be on the bright side. That does not mean you have to spend lots of money. Rooms are funny and create more problems than people think so if you can't treat the room EQ is a must.
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post #186 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 01:55 PM
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Which Danleys are you trying out? Active?

Have you considered Seaton Catalyst?
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post #187 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I have never tried my surrounds as mains. I am selling off all my gear and trying out another system. How much can you guys buy the 3622N's for? I will sell mine less than that being used. I will keep you guys update as well. I am going to order Maggies too just to try them in my room with even better amplification than before so maybe they can get more dynamic(I have no idea how loud maggies can play or how much power they can take). On the opposite end of the scale I am trying either bigger JBL's or some other monster speaker(Danley sound labs).

WOW!

What line of work are in and... are you hiring
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post #188 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You might be on to something. I do listen at low levels sometimes when I have the kids down there. I am just stating what I have experienced in my room with REW. I was measuring my room at 75db's, 85db's, 90 db's, 100 db's, etc.... and the graph was all over the place until I reached over 95 db's. Now this was with the woofers as I was measuring the low end of the response. Midbass and lower midrange where lots of info is at. That is all. Most will use audyssey which will fix any problems. They sound fine at low volumes but come alive when turned up. I have owned many speakers and when you turn the up to reference is where most compress, distort, or just lose control and makes the dialog unclear. The JBL's at reference sound the best I have heard(3622N's). To be fair I have never used my surrounds for mains and would never.

Many people on this forum love rockets but some have tried out the JTR triple 8's and love the change. I owned the triple 8's as well. You guys have to remember something too, what this compared.

A full range more expensive speaker(near $1000) placed ideally in a room against a less expensive($280) surround speaker not ideally placed. Sorry, but this is true. Having said that even placed properly one may not like the sound but putting your ear 3 feet away is not how you could attain how detailed or good a speaker is. Bose always have their speaker nearfield because they sound good there. The jbl's sound better farther away, not close and aimed over your head. Just my experiences.

I have no doubt the rocket would be better for music but I was under the impression the OP wanted a HT speaker and referenced the Klipsch RF series which I am familar with. If it was stated that Music was a priority I would have told him to skip the 8340A's and maybe the 3622N's as they sound fantastic for types of music and HT but some music I prefer the Magnepans and JTR's.

I don't know why the OP thought the 8340A's would be killer 2 channel speakers. I was impressed at what a surround speaker sound like in 2 channel in my room but would not be my favorite for this type of listening. You guys asked me about the Klipsch THX ultra 2 speakers and I did not like them for music but great for theater. I don't know if the 8340A's are as good for mains but for the price they are hard to beat for a HT. The klipsch retail for $1200 each. You guys need to put things in perspective. The expectations for the 8340A was much too high so let down would be large as well, it happened to the OP(although setup was not ideal or even that good). Setup was great for the rockets though. he also stated that the vocals were better on the JBL's as a center which means in a full 5.0 setup that is a good thing for HT. As surrounds the 8340A's are easily heard, dynamic, detailed, and you don't miss anything. I have tried many surrounds and none of them sound as good as this. It draws you into the movie. I keep things in perspective. I would never say my 3622n's are much more impressive if I put a spanking on a $280 speaker that did not impress me as a front speaker especially if not setup right(too low, aimed like a normal speaker, and only 2 for HT which needs 3). I know you tried and thank you for doing so but you are making statements like, it is their character(audyssey won't help), they are for loud but not detailed sound, which is not true.

I never really was looking for great musical speakers, just great HT speakers that do well at music in movies.

Honestly the 8340s didn't sound good "musically anywhere in the room, they lacked seperation, detail, i was very unimpressed with the quality of the sound they reproduced. I expected them to do really well HT wise and OK music wise. I can hear things in my Rockets that just was not as crisp and detailed in the JBLs.

They DO sound like cinema speakers, they have that in your face "voices easily heard" authoritive sound.

For me, I want a more detailed speaker even as surrounds, the 8340 would surely fill my room and give a kick-butt surround experience, I'm just hoping some of the smaller JBL surrounds may have more detail to my ears.

I may try something designed for my size room later like the 3677 or 3678 for the front three as they're designed for screening rooms.
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post #189 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

The problem is that most people equate horns to lower level Klipsch speakers, and do not realize that all horns are not created equal.

I have visited some very well known sound/mixing studios, all of them use horn drivers in some form...and sound excellent.

I agree these particular speaker (8340) are not bright at all, I just found them to be too harsh and overbearing for my room.
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post #190 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chadci View Post

SO, MK if these were mounted above the screen instead of behind the screen they might yield better results? That would work for me and save money AND yeild better video image as well. I still wonder about the 20's as they are smaller and might physically be a better fit.

I'm not sure if MK is suggesting that they should be aimed over your head when mounted or aimed at your listening position. If aimed at the listening position, I don't think it would have helped me with the faults I found with them. Mounting higher wouldn't have made them any crisper , cleaner or created a less harsh sound.. at least I don't see how it would have helped.
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post #191 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 02:34 PM
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Placement helps out more than you know. Horns are very picky where you place them. The detail comes thru when you are hearing them in the right placement. I still don't understand what you are describing about the speakers. You say harsh but that is normally related to distortion but you said there was not distortion. Clean is another word for distortion. Crisper is a term that used for brightness which usually cripser speakers are more harsh as the high can be too much.

Did you ever measure how loud each set of speakers were playing?(spl's) Did you recalibrate going back and forth from one set to the other? You would have to as the JBL's are much more sensitive and would play louder given the same amount of power. Placement can make or break a speaker. This is why so many search for the perfect speaker in their place because many can not move them around. When you describe the JBL's as no detail, not musical, or separation that was how the 3622N's sound when I first turned them on. They were excellent and became full sounding with detail after I broke them in. It took me 30 minutes of reference level listening.
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post #192 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 02:42 PM
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Since you think they are missing detail(I still think you need 3 properly placed for a proper test in the front stage) I am getting 3 Magnepans which had the best musical performance I have ever heard with awesome detail. The problem is they don't play very loud(most musical speakers will compress and still sound great but lose all the dynamics of film which makes it sound dull although detailed and which you experienced and why this thread). I will retry them again but put even more power into them and see how they sound. There are compromises and most hi fi speakers sound great but lack that big dynamic sound and until you have heard a full theater of big dynamic sound(not harsh) it is hard to explain.
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post #193 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Since you think they are missing detail(I still think you need 3 properly placed for a proper test in the front stage) I am getting 3 Magnepans which had the best musical performance I have ever heard with awesome detail. The problem is they don't play very loud(most musical speakers will compress and still sound great but lose all the dynamics of film which makes it sound dull although detailed and which you experienced and why this thread). I will retry them again but put even more power into them and see how they sound. There are compromises and most hi fi speakers sound great but lack that big dynamic sound and until you have heard a full theater of big dynamic sound(not harsh) it is hard to explain.

For a short time I had an all Maggie HT in a smaller room, and the sound was wonderful. They do love power, and I was pouring over 600 watts into each of them. I went with other speakers in my dedicated theater, but I still can't seem to get speakers to surpass my Maggies for two-channel listening.
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post #194 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 07:16 PM
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In my room 750 watts will get to reference levels with 3 db's of headroom. Now the question is, can the maggies take this kind of power and play this loud?
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post #195 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

In my room 750 watts will get to reference levels with 3 db's of headroom. Now the question is, can the maggies take this kind of power and play this loud?

Depending on the model they should be able to accept that power level, but only you will know if they can get loud enough for you. By reading your other posts, I don't know if you will find them acceptable.
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post #196 of 457 Old 11-12-2009, 08:23 PM
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I have owned maggies before and thought they were great but I never measured them.
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post #197 of 457 Old 11-13-2009, 06:33 PM
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Hi MK,
how do you think about a Sunfire processor + the Behringers for use with your JBL 3622n system?
How about a Sherbourn processor instead of a Sunfire?
Do you think any of those two will be a good match for a system like what you have now? I am considering a system like yours but using one of the above processors.
Thanks for your advice.

Any other forum member can advice me too?

thanks all..
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post #198 of 457 Old 11-13-2009, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by IceCake View Post

Hi MK,
how do you think about a Sunfire processor + the Behringers for use with your JBL 3622n system?
How about a Sherbourn processor instead of a Sunfire?
Do you think any of those two will be a good match for a system like what you have now? I am considering a system like yours but using one of the above processors.
Thanks for your advice.

Any other forum member can advice me too?

thanks all..

just because of budget constraints(I'm broke!!!) I'm going to try using my Onkyo 705 as the pre and let the Behringer EP4000 power the front 3.. I'm hoping it will blend nicely.. It's my first go with pro-audio stuff so I'm still learning.. chime in when you get yours and tell us how they sound
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post #199 of 457 Old 11-13-2009, 06:44 PM
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Sure to chime in as this is as well going to be my first move into the pro audio world.
I guess MK has done a great job and had inspired a lot of us to try the pro route. If it works great for him, should work great for us too
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post #200 of 457 Old 11-13-2009, 08:27 PM
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The onkyo should work with the behringer. The sunfire and sherbourn should be fine as well. The behringer will make the biggest difference. Make sure you let them break in. Mine sound better now than ever.
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post #201 of 457 Old 11-13-2009, 10:20 PM
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Hi guys,

I'm dragging part of this over from a post I made earlier today on another thread. It is more food for thought on the subject you are discussing.

The original question to which I was responding was (paraphrasing) "Why not use this pro surround speaker as an LCR?"

There's a couple of things that would get one's attention. LCR speakers have to meet much more demanding specs than surround speakers with regards to on/off axis response and directivity. The most obvious thing about this speaker is that it utilizes the cinema X curve. Reference the performance graphs here http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/suppor...pe=3&docid=638 Take a look at the FR above 10KHz. Modern EQ such as Audyssey could handle that I think. Given the difference in size of the transducers, it's kind of surprizing that off-axis horizontal response is not wanky in the crossover region like we see it is vertically.

The other thing to notice from the generous performance graphs is that you might have to be careful with vertical aiming if being used as an LCR.

Here is another possible reason that this speaker is disappointing at lower volumes. The very high sensitivity may not make it a good match with your amp. Below is quoted from this article: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazin...e/whyhorns.htm

"The first problem is electronics. Weiner talked about listening to some Klipschorns with high power solid state amps. The amps were one source of the bad sound. Horn systems typically have sensitivities of 100 to 108 dB SPL with one watt input. Even at the loudest sound that you would realistically audition any speaker system (95-100dB), the amplifier is only delivering a watt or so to the horn system at peaks. Most of the time the amp is idling at 100's of milliwatts; yes, I said milliwatts. At this level many high power solid state amps have real problems with crossover distortion. For this reason, I tell people who buy my horn systems to try different amps with them along with their existing amp. The low power requirement of horns means that single ended tube (SET) amps can easily fill a room with sound. However, not all single ended tube amps are created equal. Some SET designs have relatively high levels of distortion that can be easily heard on the horn system. And of course, the horn gets the blame for the distorted sound."

The different size of the transducers (10" and 1") alone make a smooth crossover region a significant challenge. Add to it other issues that compound this, and you could get a rather disappointing LCR. As surrounds, they don't have to worry about this so much. The bottom line is that I don't think this speaker is designed to be an LCR, and will only disappoint in that role.

Spoken by a long-time Klipsch THX U2 owner.
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post #202 of 457 Old 11-13-2009, 11:20 PM
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I know it's tons bigger and would need a fairly large HT, but this would be a strong contender for LCRs if I was considering pro cinema speakers. Take a look at how differently it's performance data is compared to the surround speaker. If I had roughly a 12' wide 2.40 screen in a room that was roughly 30' x 20', and my front/money row was 18' from the screen, I'd seriously consider this speaker. I might be inclined to bi-amp it though to try to best match the amps to the high sensitivity.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/suppor...pe=3&docid=620

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/Genera...x?PId=83&MId=1

Notice that the FR is half-space; meaning it needs a baffle wall if you want it to have that LF extension. If not, use Audyssey Pro and cross it wherever your room supports smooth response and a good splice with your subs.

Here's another one that might be fun to try as an LCR. It is not from the cinema line, but it's specs and on/off axis performance look really nice. A much smaller size, and quite a bit more expensive.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/suppor...pe=3&docid=647
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post #203 of 457 Old 11-14-2009, 04:21 PM
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Mk.. do these mains need to be raised off the floor? I have them sitting on the floor now but not sure if I make a stand for them to sit on, how high I should make it, or if it will even make a difference.
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post #204 of 457 Old 11-14-2009, 11:19 PM
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I like my raised a bit where the horn shoots just over your head.

Cam man, those are the jbl's I am using for mains.
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post #205 of 457 Old 11-15-2009, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I like my raised a bit where the horn shoots just over your head.

Cam man, those are the jbl's I am using for mains.

I'm going to build some stands for them this week then.. I'll try to raise them around 15" off the floor.. Just playing around with them and the Behringer.. I cranked them playing some bass heavy songs and..oh my gosh... I felt like I was front row at a concert!! I mean just effortless sound.. I wish I had my spl meter out.. It felt like 120-130db's .. no distortion whatsoever..
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post #206 of 457 Old 11-16-2009, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I like my raised a bit where the horn shoots just over your head.

Cam man, those are the jbl's I am using for mains.


Ha, well you know what they say about great minds.

By raising them a bit you have put yourself in the heart of their pattern. Notice in the specs that their dispersion is not symetrical in the vertical axis; they direct more sound downward than they do upward.

I think they max out the available real estate so much that this may be moot: The vertical orientation for which the LF units are designed play a critical role in proper dispersion of the sound below the crossover. Are you using the passive models or are you biamping and setting your own crossover? The passive model uses a crossover of 1.3KHz I think. I don't see you have any choice due to vertical clearance, but horizontal orientation of the LF units should be making the horizontal dispersion of the spectrum (roughly 200Hz to 1.3KHz) quite narrow, and the vertical very wide. Certainly the on/off axis graphs can be thrown out in this configuration.

That said, I'd love to hear it.
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post #207 of 457 Old 11-16-2009, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

Here's another one that might be fun to try as an LCR. It is not from the cinema line, but it's specs and on/off axis performance look really nice. A much smaller size, and quite a bit more expensive.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/suppor...pe=3&docid=647

Funny thing, I installed these in a hotel training room, but while we had them I hooked them up to our Mcintosh MC402 amp.
These things were putting out the sound that no consumer model could match. We were even clipping the amp with them but they showed absolutley no sign of strain. The sound coming from them were very JBL like meaning that they put vocals more forward than other speakers but they sounded great despite being a pro model.

We have Triad Platinums connected to the system anyway and the Traids did sound smoother, had more depth and the soundstaging was better but the impact was left wanting. The Triads are also 4-5 times the price of the JBLs.
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post #208 of 457 Old 11-17-2009, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
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Funny thing, I installed these in a hotel training room, but while we had them I hooked them up to our Mcintosh MC402 amp.
These things were putting out the sound that no consumer model could match. We were even clipping the amp with them but they showed absolutley no sign of strain. The sound coming from them were very JBL like meaning that they put vocals more forward than other speakers but they sounded great despite being a pro model.

We have Triad Platinums connected to the system anyway and the Traids did sound smoother, had more depth and the soundstaging was better but the impact was left wanting. The Triads are also 4-5 times the price of the JBLs.

That sounds like it was fun while it lasted. The Triads are fabulous, though. I really love the dispersion lens they use. I used to have the old Gold LCRs. The smoothness of the dispersion across the seating area was the best I've heard from any speaker. But, alas, they did lack the impact just as you mention, especially in a larger room. I eventually gave them up for that reason.
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post #209 of 457 Old 11-17-2009, 07:26 PM
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That is the problem with most speakers, never perfect.
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post #210 of 457 Old 11-17-2009, 11:51 PM
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I myself am looking at swapping my MK speakers for the JBL LSR6325p speakers. I want more impact, wider soundstage and better voices.
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