Full range speakers versus bookshelf when a quality sub is involved. - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 2,494
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
Liked: 397
I have some Von Schweikert VR1 monitors and a Paradigm servo 15 sub. This might come off as a newbie question, but I assure you I am not, but what is the advantage to having full range speakers over monitors (assuming you have a quality subwoofer in your system). I am the early stages of doing research of considering changing my speakers and am mostly looking at other monitors such as the Paradigm Signature S2 or the PSB synchrony speakers. I have a Denon 4810 receiver and cross the front 3 channels over at 80hz and let the sub do the heavy lifting. What would the advantage of be of getting full range speakers over the bookshelf if I am using my subwoofer in the mix? Would like to get some input from others. Thanks.
Frohlich is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 10:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RonaldoCombs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,654
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I personally prefer to cross the fronts as low as I can, for music I like a minimum 60hz xo - and lower is better.

But I am well aware of your sub, perhaps my preferences are due to having an inferior sub, do you notice a difference in the mid bass when you cross over lower?

Ron
RonaldoCombs is offline  
post #3 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 11:11 AM
Member
 
MADNOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 29
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
i believe it would be power rating , a big tower simply has more power in the midrange than a bookshelf.

if power is not a key then bookshelves and quality sub(S) can provide a good dynamic range surround.
MADNOD is offline  
post #4 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 11:15 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,574
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 270 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post

I have some Von Schweikert VR1 monitors and a Paradigm servo 15 sub. This might come off as a newbie question, but I assure you I am not, but what is the advantage to having full range speakers over monitors (assuming you have a quality subwoofer in your system). I am the early stages of doing research of considering changing my speakers and am mostly looking at other monitors such as the Paradigm Signature S2 or the PSB synchrony speakers. I have a Denon 4810 receiver and cross the front 3 channels over at 80hz and let the sub do the heavy lifting. What would the advantage of be of getting full range speakers over the bookshelf if I am using my subwoofer in the mix? Would like to get some input from others. Thanks.

IMO, there is no advantage if you use Bass Management properly, and it sounds like you know how to do that. My philosophy, and the advice I have given many times on this forum, is to take the money saved on the towers vs. bookshelf/monitors and spend it on a second sub. You'll end up with a better *system*.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

craig john is offline  
post #5 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 01:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
karlsaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 1,882
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 31
I just posted something a bit ago about this. Take the sub out of the equation and what do you have? If you have little bookshelf speakers, not much. In my newly formed opinion, the sub should not be the crutch. Just a piece of the puzzel or part of a team that helps paint the whole picture. Getting the main speakers down to at least 60 Hz if not lower is good.

Sounds good!
karlsaudio is offline  
post #6 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 02:02 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,574
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 270 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlsaudio View Post

I just posted something a bit ago about this. Take the sub out of the equation and what do you have? If you have little bookshelf speakers, not much. In my newly formed opinion, the sub should not be the crutch. Just a piece of the puzzel or part of a team that helps paint the whole picture. Getting the main speakers down to at least 60 Hz if not lower is good.

...which can easily be accomplished with *good* bookshelf speakers.

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

craig john is offline  
post #7 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 02:02 PM
Senior Member
 
oedius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Abilene, TX
Posts: 354
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlsaudio View Post

I just posted something a bit ago about this. Take the sub out of the equation and what do you have? If you have little bookshelf speakers, not much. In my newly formed opinion, the sub should not be the crutch. Just a piece of the puzzel or part of a team that helps paint the whole picture. Getting the main speakers down to at least 60 Hz if not lower is good.

All three or just the R/L?
oedius is offline  
post #8 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 02:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cdy2179's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: central Louisiana
Posts: 1,850
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

...which can easily be accomplished with *good* bookshelf speakers.

Craig

I agree 60hz is easily attainable by many bookshelves.

The advantage to large speakers is they can be dynamic having the ability to move much more air they can just sound bigger above subwoofer level.

Look at the JBL Pro Cenima's, the JTRs, Seaton the very popular HT speakers that have proven themselves the cream of the crop for HT. Besides being very sensitive they are very big, some containing two 15s for bass drivers.. yet many of them have a frequency response that drops off just below 80hz. With a good quality sub why would you want you mains that do what the sub can do better? The higher you crossover to your sub the more efficeint you mains are. That's why so many high effeceint speakers JTRs and so on roll off so earlier.
cdy2179 is offline  
post #9 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 02:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
karlsaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 1,882
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Just the left and right Oedius. Or the rear surrounds for that matter in a 5.1 set up. Even 60 Hz might be on the high side. I have not experimented personally with say 5 Hz incruments from say 40-70 Hz but, my SL20s at 70 Hz is way too high personally.

Sounds good!
karlsaudio is offline  
post #10 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Frohlich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 2,494
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
Liked: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlsaudio View Post

I just posted something a bit ago about this. Take the sub out of the equation and what do you have? If you have little bookshelf speakers, not much. In my newly formed opinion, the sub should not be the crutch. Just a piece of the puzzel or part of a team that helps paint the whole picture. Getting the main speakers down to at least 60 Hz if not lower is good.

Some of the nicest high end speakers (example is the Aerial 10T) are just bookshelf speakers sitting on top of a sub (at least that is what it looks like to me). As long as your book shelf can go down below 80hz, what is the use in the sub and the woofers in your towers covering the same frequency. And in the case of a high end sub won't it likely cover it much better then a bottom end of a tower speaker. I guess I am answering my own question but I am looking for somebody to talk me out of thinking or point out why my logic isn't solid.
Frohlich is offline  
post #11 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 02:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
karlsaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 1,882
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

...which can easily be accomplished with *good* bookshelf speakers.

Craig

Indeed but, larger bookshelves. Ones with say 6 1/2 inch woofers or greater. I think the the argument can be related more to the smaller ones. Ones with 5 1/2 inch or smaller drivers.

Sounds good!
karlsaudio is offline  
post #12 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 02:54 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
penngray's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,779
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
I agree 60hz is easily attainable by many bookshelves.

We should keep in mind that we should always crossover 1 octave higher then the F3 of a speaker because it will create the best response at the crossover of the sub and the mains.

many smaller speakers have F3 40 Hz range or higher so that actually means around 80Hz would be the recommended crossover setting.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
penngray is offline  
post #13 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 04:15 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
craig john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Lancaster, PA
Posts: 10,574
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 270 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

We should keep in mind that we should always crossover 1 octave higher then the F3 of a speaker because it will create the best response at the crossover of the sub and the mains.

many smaller speakers have F3 40 Hz range or higher so that actually means around 80Hz would be the recommended crossover setting.

You know, Penn, I've heard that, (I've even repeated it), but the THX crossover doesn't work that way. The THX crossover specifies an 80 Hz F3 with a 2nd order rolloff for the speakers, so that, when mated with the 2nd order rolloff of the crossover, the final result is a 4th order *system* rolloff. The subwoofer rolloff is 4th order above 80 Hz, and the overall result is a perfect Linkwitz-Riley 4th/4th crossover.

IOW, THX doesn't require an octave of extension below the crossover. Why would any other crossover need it, if THX doesn't?

Craig

Lombardi said it:
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

My System

craig john is offline  
post #14 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 04:41 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,824
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlsaudio View Post

Indeed but, larger bookshelves. Ones with say 6 1/2 inch woofers or greater. I think the the argument can be related more to the smaller ones. Ones with 5 1/2 inch or smaller drivers.

Of course, this is just a generality.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #15 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 04:43 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,824
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

You know, Penn, I've heard that, (I've even repeated it), but the THX crossover doesn't work that way. The THX crossover specifies an 80 Hz F3 with a 2nd order rolloff for the speakers, so that, when mated with the 2nd order rolloff of the crossover, the final result is a 4th order *system* rolloff. The subwoofer rolloff is 4th order above 80 Hz, and the overall result is a perfect Linkwitz-Riley 4th/4th crossover.

IOW, THX doesn't require an octave of extension below the crossover. Why would any other crossover need it, if THX doesn't?

Craig

Right, the issue is to get the proper crossover slopes regardless of the F3.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #16 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 10:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
karlsaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 1,882
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Rethinking my earlier post, I think it would be more advantagous to have the main speakers with a bottom of about 70 Hz or so. Just below the 80 Hz setting most AVRs have for the "small" setting. This way, the roll off is not in play. Second, this does allow the sub to do it's job where it is most happy. And yes Frohlich, you are right. The "bookshelf sitting on top of a sub" look seems to be the state of the art. AND, I just kind of rehashed your statement!

Sounds good!
karlsaudio is offline  
post #17 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 10:48 PM
Member
 
Leesrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
I have some Von Schweikert VR1 monitors and a Paradigm servo 15 sub. This might come off as a newbie question, but I assure you I am not, but what is the advantage to having full range speakers over monitors (assuming you have a quality subwoofer in your system)

I use to be very into home theater installations and tuning but that was 15 years ago. I've lost touch with a lot of the newer terminology so while I can't bafle you with terms and numbers I can break it down into english.

Your advantage will be that while you have a solid sub remember what it's roll is. It's job is not to reproduce music and sound but to fill in the bass, typically below 80hz. Your primary speakers reproduce music so evaluate them seperately from the sub. While a bookshelf speaker can reproduce the same range as a given tower or monitor it may not produce the same tonal quality and dimension.
In other words, don't let the ability of your sub dictate the quality of your mains, treat them seperatly and then fine tune how the crossover.

It's kind of like having a football team with a really strong brutal running back. When you go to draft a receiver you don't say "well I have this really strong running back so I'll get a weaker not so fast receiver to balance it out ". You treat each position seperatly and then blend them togethor to what the team is trying to achieve.
Leesrt is offline  
post #18 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 10:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
karlsaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Maple Grove, MN
Posts: 1,882
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leesrt View Post

I use to be very into home theater installations and tuning but that was 15 years ago. I've lost touch with a lot of the newer terminology so while I can't bafle you with terms and numbers I can break it down into english.

Your advantage will be that while you have a solid sub remember what it's roll is. It's job is not to reproduce music and sound but to fill in the bass, typically below 80hz. Your primary speakers reproduce music so evaluate them seperately from the sub. While a bookshelf speaker can reproduce the same range as a given tower or monitor it may not produce the same tonal quality and dimension.
In other words, don't let the ability of your sub dictate the quality of your mains, treat them seperatly and then fine tune how the crossover.

It's kind of like having a football team with a really strong brutal running back. When you go to draft a receiver you don't say "well I have this really strong running back so I'll get a weaker not so fast receiver to balance it out ". You treat each position seperatly and then blend them togethor to what the team is trying to achieve.

Perfect!

Sounds good!
karlsaudio is offline  
post #19 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 11:22 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,824
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leesrt View Post

In other words, don't let the ability of your sub dictate the quality of your mains, treat them seperatly and then fine tune how the crossover.

Agreed, but lets also remember that the size of the speaker does not dictate its quality.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #20 of 91 Old 12-17-2009, 11:30 PM
Member
 
Leesrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Agreed, but lets also remember that the size of the speaker does not dictate its quality.

True.
Leesrt is offline  
post #21 of 91 Old 12-18-2009, 12:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RonaldoCombs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,654
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Agreed, but lets also remember that the size of the speaker does not dictate its quality.

I guess I am in the minority here? I prefer bookshelf speakers to towers, I also like it when they go down to at least 55hz, and in that case I run my fronts as full & adjust my sub around the same..

I know it isn't THX approved, but for music, am I doing something wrong?

Ron (who hopes one day to live somewhere where he can utilize a great sub).
RonaldoCombs is offline  
post #22 of 91 Old 12-18-2009, 12:55 AM
Member
 
Leesrt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonaldoCombs View Post

I guess I am in the minority here? I prefer bookshelf speakers to towers, I also like it when they go down to at least 55hz, and in that case I run my fronts as full & adjust my sub around the same..

I know it isn't THX approved, but for music, am I doing something wrong?

Ron (who hopes one day to live somewhere where he can utilize a great sub).

Have you tried crossing your mains over a little above their lower limit, say 60-70hz. A dedicated sub amp is going to handle the bass much better than an amp thats running full range. It will relieve your receiver of power the low end and help it drive the rest cleaner.
Leesrt is offline  
post #23 of 91 Old 12-18-2009, 01:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RonaldoCombs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,654
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leesrt View Post

Have you tried crossing your mains over a little above their lower limit, say 60-70hz. A dedicated sub amp is going to handle the bass much better than an amp thats running full range. It will relieve your receiver of power the low end and help it drive the rest cleaner.

I have, and felt like the mid bass was weak, I have 110 wpc all channels driven.

Ron
RonaldoCombs is offline  
post #24 of 91 Old 12-18-2009, 05:04 AM
 
mjg100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post

I agree 60hz is easily attainable by many bookshelves.

The advantage to large speakers is they can be dynamic having the ability to move much more air they can just sound bigger above subwoofer level.

Look at the JBL Pro Cenima's, the JTRs, Seaton the very popular HT speakers that have proven themselves the cream of the crop for HT. Besides being very sensitive they are very big, some containing two 15s for bass drivers.. yet many of them have a frequency response that drops off just below 80hz. With a good quality sub why would you want you mains that do what the sub can do better? The higher you crossover to your sub the more efficeint you mains are. That's why so many high effeceint speakers JTRs and so on roll off so earlier.

Very much agree. You can have mains that go down to 60, but if they do not have large drivers then you are much better off raising the crossover point and let the subs (plural) do the work. Anybody that has mains with 8" or smaller drivers (even if they are towers with a pair) should try placing a sub by each main and raise the crossover point. I think you will be surprised by how much headroom you gain and how much more dynamic things sound.

Look at it this way. Lets say you have tower speakers with a pair of 8" drivers in them. That gives you 201 square inches using both mains. Even if your pair of subs only has 12" drivers you still have 226 square inches. When you factor in the much larger xmax of the subs it is no contest. Most decent subs will have twice or more xmax of the drivers found in mains, so even if your mains have four 8" drivers they still will not be able to compete.

8-8" drivers 402 Square inches x 12mm xmx (.4724") = 190 cubic inches of air moved.
2-12" drivers 226 square inches x 27mm xmax (1.063") = 240 cubic inches. Even if your mains have four 8" drivers in each speaker it is not even close to competing with two modern day good subs that only have 12" drivers.
mjg100 is offline  
post #25 of 91 Old 12-18-2009, 05:10 AM
Senior Member
 
csnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 14
I just upgraded my speakers and faced the same dilemma on bookshelf vs. tower. I have two PB-13's so bass management is covered. I looked at a broad range of brands within both speaker families. The main deciding factor for me was that I didn’t want stands. I don’t like having speakers on stands. Sadly, that was the rocket science that swayed me to towers.

Denon 4520
Mitsu 92" DLP
SVS PB13 Ultra (2)
Oppo BDP-103
Rocket RS850 (2)
Rocket Bigfoot Center
Rocket RS450 (4)
Emotiva XPA-3
csnow is offline  
post #26 of 91 Old 12-18-2009, 05:18 AM
 
mjg100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonaldoCombs View Post

I have, and felt like the mid bass was weak, I have 110 wpc all channels driven.

Ron

Ron I have small speakers that have an f3 of 47Hz. I have multiple subs. I have tried the following crossovers: 60hz, 70hz, 80hz, 100hz, 120hz, 150hz and 200hz. 100hz or 120hz (could not tell the difference) was far and away much better than 60hz, 70hz or 80hz. With a single sub you probably can't do this but if you have two subs you should test this. I don't care if you have towers or not. The subs can produce bass much better, so why would you not use them for what they are designed for. Adding multiple subs and raising the crossover point was far and away the biggest improvement of any that I have done to my system.
mjg100 is offline  
post #27 of 91 Old 12-18-2009, 09:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RonaldoCombs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,654
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Ron I have small speakers that have an f3 of 47Hz. I have multiple subs. I have tried the following crossovers: 60hz, 70hz, 80hz, 100hz, 120hz, 150hz and 200hz. 100hz or 120hz (could not tell the difference) was far and away much better than 60hz, 70hz or 80hz. With a single sub you probably can't do this but if you have two subs you should test this. I don't care if you have towers or not. The subs can produce bass much better, so why would you not use them for what they are designed for. Adding multiple subs and raising the crossover point was far and away the biggest improvement of any that I have done to my system.

This is a practical suggestion. My current apartment living situation would make this a poor upgrade unless I bought subs that were big enough to live in

Ron
RonaldoCombs is offline  
post #28 of 91 Old 12-18-2009, 10:29 AM
Member
 
paulsax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 125
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by karlsaudio View Post

Indeed but, larger bookshelves. Ones with say 6 1/2 inch woofers or greater. I think the the argument can be related more to the smaller ones. Ones with 5 1/2 inch or smaller drivers.

I've pretty much convinced myself that while the geometry and physics should make this true, in practice it does not seem to follow. I recently auditioned 2 bookshelves with all else equal the units with 5.5 inch woofers KILLED the units with 7 inch woofers. THere is clearly more going on they just dimensions.

just my $0.02
paulsax is offline  
post #29 of 91 Old 12-18-2009, 10:44 AM
pbc
AVS Special Member
 
pbc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 5,511
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Here's what might be a dumb question, but how bad would it be to put a quality set of bookshelf speakers on top of subs (say sitting on an Auralex or other isolation platform on top of the sub)?

Only asking as I have Paradigm S2's which I was considering wall mounting as I don't have space for stands if I want to move my sub up front and eventually go with dual subs up front. Wall mounting may not work as these speakers are too deep, so I'm wondering about sitting them on the actual sub? E.g., I would either add a second PB13 sub or go with dual quality "heavy" sealed subs that hopefully don't vibrate much if at all.

Might be a dumb question as I never thought of putting htem on the actual sub until I realized the wall mount option doesn't seem to work!

 

My DIY Subs ... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233892

Quote:

J Dunlavy:.. if you stop to think about it, no loudspeaker can sound more accurate than it measures.

 

pbc is online now  
post #30 of 91 Old 12-18-2009, 11:09 AM
 
mjg100's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Here's what might be a dumb question, but how bad would it be to put a quality set of bookshelf speakers on top of subs (say sitting on an Auralex or other isolation platform on top of the sub)?

Only asking as I have Paradigm S2's which I was considering wall mounting as I don't have space for stands if I want to move my sub up front and eventually go with dual subs up front. Wall mounting may not work as these speakers are too deep, so I'm wondering about sitting them on the actual sub? E.g., I would either add a second PB13 sub or go with dual quality "heavy" sealed subs that hopefully don't vibrate much if at all.

Might be a dumb question as I never thought of putting htem on the actual sub until I realized the wall mount option doesn't seem to work!

This is done all of the time. A lot of speakers are built using a separate bass bin (sub) with the mid/high unit sitting on top. You can buy an active crossover like the Behringer CX2310 and use it to incorporate a sub into your front speaker making the speaker a three way (I did this for several months) or you can raise the crossover and use the sub on the LFE out. Since I have a sub located below every speaker (5.1) in my system it works better using the subs on the LFE and raising the crossover. You feel the mid-bass slam in your chest.
mjg100 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off