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post #181 of 2537 Old 01-02-2011, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by pilot20 View Post

I have the 7001s, 3000clr and BPX rears and Reference sub in my system. I've been using them for over 3 years now, and I am completely satisfied.

I'm not a noobie when it comes to audio equipment. I started my audio adventures way back in the early 70s, and I have had many quality components over the years.

I can easily say that my experience with my Def Techs has been very positive.

I have never had any of the speaker components fail.

The sound of the bipolar is a personal preference. I think they sound excellent in my room. The only downside that I have found is that the bipolars don’t work well with Audyssey room correction. At least I haven’t had any success. But, I’m happy to do the setup manually.

Basing your Reference sub experience on one visit to a dealer, who may not have known how to set it up, and then posting your negative experience is careless. Also, auditioning a sub in a showroom won't do justice to the sub. There are too many variables with setup, placement and room interactions, and how they will perform with your system/room to fairly Judge any speaker in a showroom

My Reference sub (with auto on/off circuit) works great. The important thing is to set it up with the sub gain at approximately 10 oclock or less. Setting it any higher will lower the signal from the receiver when setting the speaker levels and cause the sub to require more volume to activate the auto circuit. Once the speaker levels are set, then you can increase the sub gain control if desired.

I don't find that the Reference sub sounds boomy at all. Like any system, careful setup is required.

Also, I have never experienced any buzzing from the Reference sub or any of the other subs built in to the speakers. I have a very large open listening environment with 16’ muliti-level tray ceiling. Last night I was watching the movie Inception at a fairly high level, and the LFE in the movie caused numerous vibrations/rattling in the room at times. That is the fault of my room, not the sub.

I just read the stellar review on the Tritons in Sound and Vision magazine last night. I've always been drawn to the sound of ribbon speakers due to their clarity, but I've always avoided them due to problems with off axis performance. Based on what I am reading about the Tritons, their tweeters have excellent off axis performance.

I don't know if I will trade in my current Def Tech speakers for the Tritons, but it sure is tempting. It sounds like GoldenEar has a major winner in play.

If Mr. Gross would like to send me a review sample, I would be happy to listen to them for a couple of years and then post my impressions in this thread.

Pilot20,

I have a setup close to yours. I find the BP7000SC's to be excellent for live performances, HT, and games, but so so for music (part of it may be my room, though, I don't think it's that bad).

I heard the BDSS drivers in the Def Tech speakers and it's incredible how such a smaller driver can have such a big sound. I'm sure the BDSS mids in the Triton Two with and ribbon tweeters must be awesome experience.

When I had a choice recently to improve my music enjoyment of my system, I decided to add two more CLR3000's in the front. My guess is that it's probably not has good as the Triton Two but should be an improvement over the BP7000SC's (I also have a standalone subwoofer for use with the CLR3000's). Additionally, I also have more configuration flexibility. I just need to play around some more and upgraded to a AVR which has the Audyssey DSX feature.

I wouldn't say I'm ready to "refresh" my whole system yet (just got it within the last couple year) unless I wanted a smaller sized system/save space. I am anxious though to check out the new Triton's and look forward towards future products, etc.
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post #182 of 2537 Old 01-02-2011, 12:15 PM
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I too have been a fan of high fidelity music reproduction since I bought my first system in 74. I have owned and auditioned a lot of equipment over the years. I have learned that something can sound bad at the shop and pretty good at home and vice versa. I have always tried to keep an open mind when hearing something for the first time and not let reviwes by professionals and know it alls cloud my judgement. They are MY ears after all and if someone else thinks they are full of dung then so be it. I have a system like pilot20 but with different subs and 2 bp20's for rears. I use my system mostly for music, 75% or so. I like my 7001's and look forward to hearing the triton 2's.
May be they will have the stuff to knock my out of phase bipolar tweeters out of the house and may be they won't. I have listened to a lot of speakers since owning my definitives and have yet to hear anything that sounded better to me that I would not have to sell a kidney to afford.

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post #183 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 08:47 AM
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Hi, I am very pleased that you have received so much enjoyment from your Definitives. It is very satisfying to know that my work over the years has resulted in much joy and pleasure. I look forward to hearing your response to the latest creations. One note: they do not incorporate the BDSS (dual surround) feature in the drivers. The drivers, however, are exceptionally smooth and Don and I feel they are the best that we have ever produced. Sandy
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post #184 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 09:17 AM
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I still want to see +/- db ratings, best yet a graph. Even if the room is anechoic it gives one a real chance to see how the unit performs under a universal enviroment or control.

Realistically I know those finding won't reflect performance in a room though.
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post #185 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

Pilot20,

I have a setup close to yours. I find the BP7000SC's to be excellent for live performances, HT, and games, but so so for music (part of it may be my room, though, I don't think it's that bad).

I heard the BDSS drivers in the Def Tech speakers and it's incredible how such a smaller driver can have such a big sound. I'm sure the BDSS mids in the Triton Two with and ribbon tweeters must be awesome experience.

When I had a choice recently to improve my music enjoyment of my system, I decided to add two more CLR3000's in the front. My guess is that it's probably not has good as the Triton Two but should be an improvement over the BP7000SC's (I also have a standalone subwoofer for use with the CLR3000's). Additionally, I also have more configuration flexibility. I just need to play around some more and upgraded to a AVR which has the Audyssey DSX feature.

I wouldn't say I'm ready to "refresh" my whole system yet (just got it within the last couple year) unless I wanted a smaller sized system/save space. I am anxious though to check out the new Triton's and look forward towards future products, etc.

I would agree with you that my Def Techs do an excellent job with movies, but may not be the best for critical music listening, although I still enjoy music with my speakers.

I used to listen to music much more than I do now, but as I've aged, my music listening is more of the casual background type. Therefore, bipolars fit my style just fine.

As a side note, if you do a search for reviews on the 7000s and 7001s, you won't find any negative reviews. Most reviews highly praise the sound.

7001s...

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/tes...speaker-system

truwarrior, have you had success using Audyssey with your bipolars? Mine sound terrible with it.

Pilot
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post #186 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g_bartman View Post

I too have been a fan of high fidelity music reproduction since I bought my first system in 74. I have owned and auditioned a lot of equipment over the years. I have learned that something can sound bad at the shop and pretty good at home and vice versa. I have always tried to keep an open mind when hearing something for the first time and not let reviwes by professionals and know it alls cloud my judgement. They are MY ears after all and if someone else thinks they are full of dung then so be it. I have a system like pilot20 but with different subs and 2 bp20's for rears. I use my system mostly for music, 75% or so. I like my 7001's and look forward to hearing the triton 2's.
May be they will have the stuff to knock my out of phase bipolar tweeters out of the house and may be they won't. I have listened to a lot of speakers since owning my definitives and have yet to hear anything that sounded better to me that I would not have to sell a kidney to afford.

g_bartman,

Sounds like we are about the same age. Also, I was born in Cleveland.

I live in South Texas now....much better winter weather!!!
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post #187 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 09:47 AM
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Hey guys,

I am shopping for some new L/C/R speakers and just came across these. My main focus is HT and gaming. I had planned to run a sub with my new speakers, but space is at a premium, so I came across these and started thinking.

Can the built in subs in these towers fill a smaller to medium sized room with LFE material, enough so that a additional sub is not necessary? Would these towers be geared towards HT, or are they better for music reproduction?
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post #188 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 10:13 AM
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I would plan on adding a sub, but would do so until you have the towers in your room. If you are satisfied with their extension, output and sound qaulity then sans a sub.

Really though if my towers had subs i'd run them as small. Especially if using Audyssey MultEQ XT. Reasons being are you have less risk of phase error with overlapping frequencies. Even if they play with more extension I'd be inclined to do those towers at 40hz xover with a sub that has more output at lower frequencies.

To me everything Audyssey is doing is making speakers reach magnificent potential. My definitives never sounded as good as they do now. All the focus that wasn't there now is.

Just read the new review of the tritons not bad. 25hz looks good there is a few nasty dips/peaks but if you use the right system to rope it all in well...kudos. i'd say that the new HSU VTF 15in sub looks to be the greatest value out there.
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post #189 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 10:17 AM
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Thanks for the thoughts. Yeah, the towers looked interesting, but I hate to buy something like that and then run them as small. Wouldn't that make the built in subs not run hardly at all? The ribbon tweeter and drivers do look nice though. Perhaps they'll come out with a similar tower, minus the subs at a later date....
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post #190 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amheck View Post
Hey guys,

I am shopping for some new L/C/R speakers and just came across these. My main focus is HT and gaming. I had planned to run a sub with my new speakers, but space is at a premium, so I came across these and started thinking.

Can the built in subs in these towers fill a smaller to medium sized room with LFE material, enough so that a additional sub is not necessary? Would these towers be geared towards HT, or are they better for music reproduction?
They should do both very well. I personally like having a larger 18" subwoofer, but if you don't have the space they'll work well. I haven't heard them per say, but based on my experiences with Def Tech and just other speakers in general I don't see any problems. Mayber a large room the driver's might be a little small but for a small to medium room it should be just right.
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post #191 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by pilot20 View Post
I would agree with you that my Def Techs do an excellent job with movies, but may not be the best for critical music listening, although I still enjoy music with my speakers.

I used to listen to music much more than I do now, but as I've aged, my music listening is more of the casual background type. Therefore, bipolars fit my style just fine.

As a side note, if you do a search for reviews on the 7000s and 7001s, you won't find any negative reviews. Most reviews highly praise the sound.

7001s...

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/tes...speaker-system

truwarrior, have you had success using Audyssey with your bipolars? Mine sound terrible with it.

Pilot
I was playing around with them again last night. I setup Audyssey again and noticed that the sound was awesome at low volumes, but once I turned the volume higher I perffered Audyssey off...I think I was just getting too much reflection and the music turned into more noise then music.... Still working on adding more room treatments and placements
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post #192 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 11:15 AM
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Hi, The built-in subs in the Tritons are quite capable, as you can read in the various writ-ups that have come out and will hear when you audition them. Remember that with the Tritons you actually have two subs. One of the tremendous advantages of building the subs in is how well they integrate with the rest of the system. Bass is a little like horsepower in a car (like what engine do you want in your new Corvette or Porsche), only you can determine what is right for you. Obviously it also relates to the size of your room etc.. Al Griffin felt that it was the best bass he had ever experienced in his room and he had tried many separate subs there. That said, if I were to add an external sub (and it would have to be an extremely good one to make sense adding on) I would run the Tritons as large, taking full advantage of their subs for the left and right channels, and run the sub on the LFE channel. Small with most processors would roll the left and right off much higher and would normally be used with small bookshelf speakers or satellites. We do have two satellites, the SuperSat 3 and SuperSat 50 which do offer basically the same mid/high section as the Triton and would normally be used with a separate sub, like our Forcefields. Sandy
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post #193 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amheck View Post

Thanks for the thoughts. Yeah, the towers looked interesting, but I hate to buy something like that and then run them as small. Wouldn't that make the built in subs not run hardly at all? The ribbon tweeter and drivers do look nice though. Perhaps they'll come out with a similar tower, minus the subs at a later date....

They would run, just that they would roll off below 40hz. If you use Audyssey it has more filtering for the LFE output. Hence you get more correction there. You could try using LFE to the towers if this is allowed, run them set to small and crossed over at 80hz, the receiver would send more headroom to the upper mids and tweeter and LFE would be redirected to the towers' subs regardless..

http://www.audyssey.com/technology/multeq.html

XT32 uses the same ammount of filters for both the speakers and lfe out. however if you use 512 filters from 20hz-20khz vs 512 filters from say 40hz-20khz or even 80hz-20khz that is more filtering used across a tighter bandwidth and could make much more subtle corrections.

Honestly even if I had BP7000SC's I'd still set them to small and cut em at 40 or 50hz, leaving the LFE sub a lot finer tuning, especially based on room placement, acoustic treatment.

Right now even with the BP10b's I have ditch the double bass mode in favor of finer calibration. My towers while able to play into the 35-40hz range I have them x-over at 80hz.

To each their own but if you want optimal calibration, whether its Audyssey, YPAO, or MCACC etc you should run all speakers set to small.
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post #194 of 2537 Old 01-03-2011, 10:49 PM
 
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Sandy,
I've seen the measured flat response in the Sound & Vision review, which is a mojior reason I'm interested in you new design.
Do the Triton Two Towers need additional DSP equalization or are they designed for extended flat frequency response?
I understand the bass is already DSP equalized.
What is your view as an experienced speaker designer?

Notes:
My bet is when set-up with care (away from the walls) that they don't need it.
Could consumers unknowingly be correcting anomalies in the cheap microphones?
Where is the logic in using a dollar microphone to correct carefully designed $2500 speakers?
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post #195 of 2537 Old 01-04-2011, 11:39 AM
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Talked to my local dealer. Said they just got the towers in a few days ago and that they are currently breaking in, and should be on the floor in a couple of weeks. I left my number so hopefully I'll get to see/hear these before too long. This shop isn't known for discounting much below MSRP, though.
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post #196 of 2537 Old 01-04-2011, 12:12 PM
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Hi, The speakers are absolutely designed for flat extended response without additional equalization. We have some reservations regarding the DSP room correction systems as you suggest for various reasons. Beyond that, the systems can't correct for anomalies due to basic problems with a speaker. We are in Las Vegas now setting up for our show. Sandy
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post #197 of 2537 Old 01-04-2011, 10:15 PM
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I am not very familiar with this type of ribbon tweeter. Does anyone know what material it is made of? Is this needing to be a stiff material and if so, are ribbon tweeters known to "hold up?" It would seem to me, that in theory at least, that the motion noted ("accordion") for these ribbon tweeters might break down over time? Just conjecture. Comments/experience?

I listened to some Def Tech Mythos series speakers today as I could not find any Tritons yet in stock in the Fairfax VA area (closest thing that I could think to compare to the Tritons (no ribbon tweeter, of course). It was a pleasant sounding speaker, but I would expect that of course the Tritons would have A LOT more low end, and a different tweeter, so diff high end..
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post #198 of 2537 Old 01-05-2011, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WOLVERNOLE View Post

I am not very familiar with this type of ribbon tweeter. Does anyone know what material it is made of? Is this needing to be a stiff material and if so, are ribbon tweeters known to "hold up?" It would seem to me, that in theory at least, that the motion noted ("accordion") for these ribbon tweeters might break down over time? Just conjecture. Comments/experience?

I listened to some Def Tech Mythos series speakers today as I could not find any Tritons yet in stock in the Fairfax VA area (closest thing that I could think to compare to the Tritons (no ribbon tweeter, of course). It was a pleasant sounding speaker, but I would expect that of course the Tritons would have A LOT more low end, and a different tweeter, so diff high end..

I believe this is the type of ribbon tweeter used in the Tritons...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Motion_Transformer

Once you hear ribbons that have been integrated properly with the other components in a speaker (i.e. crossovers, cabinet and other drivers) they are hard to beat. They have a very open and clear characteristic that I find very appealing.

I can't comment on their longevity, but they've been around since the 70s, and were invented by Dr. Oskar Heil, a renowned physicist. If there were issues with longevity, I assume that shortcoming would have been revealed by now.


The Heil diaphragm is made of Mylar bonded with conductive aluminum strips. It is equivalent in surface area to a conventional eight-inch cone-type midrange driver, but is accordion-folded down to a compact one-inch band for better point-source dispersion. The low-mass diaphragm is suspended within a massive magnet concentrating an intense magnetic field around the diaphragm. When a signal current passes through the aluminum strips, the ensuing bellows-like motion of the folded "pleats" squeezes air out five times faster than with a conventional cone driver. This rapid acceleration of the air is claimed to provide enhanced sound reproduction, including high dynamic range." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Heil

The ribbons that are used in the Tritons may be a bit different that the AMTs that Dr. Heil invented, but the principle is the same.

I'm sure that Mr. Gross could comment on the heritage of his ribbons.
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post #199 of 2537 Old 01-05-2011, 07:57 AM
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VMPS Speakers has been using them for a while, although I don't know enough to know if they are the same kind as used in the Tritons.
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post #200 of 2537 Old 01-05-2011, 08:51 AM
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Hi, As pilot20 has mentioned, we are using a folded ribbon which has evolved from the Heil concept. This is very different than a normal ribbon. A normal ribbon is a flat diaphragm which moves forward and backwards. The folded ribbon (we call it a High Velocity Folded Ribbon or HVFR) looks more like an accordion and moves like an accordion, squeezing the air out rather that pushing it. The impedance matching or coupling to the air in the room is much better (more efficient coupling: more air movement for less diaphragm movement) and the moving mass is very low, with the effective moving mass being that of each pleat rather than that of the whole diaphragm. Also, we achieve much better dispersion than we would see if we were looking at a conventional ribbon with a diaphragm size equivalent to our diaphragm stretched out and not folded. The original Heils had a power handling problem because the diaphragms were mylar and they would melt when exposed to the high heat generated by the "voice coil" tracings deposited on them. Ours uses a high temperature Kapton like material which does not have this issue. I am not sure if the VMPS speakers use a folded ribbon or a conventional one. I believe, however, that it is not a folded ribbon. Sandy
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post #201 of 2537 Old 01-05-2011, 12:48 PM
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Thanks for the responses. My only other question then, is in regards to my already owned surrrounds of the traditional type "tweeter." I just wonder how this ribbon-style (HVFR) tweeter on L&R fronts of the Triton Twos would blend or "match" in tone, in the room with my dipole surrounds ? Any thoughts on this? Thanks again so much.
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post #202 of 2537 Old 01-05-2011, 05:38 PM
 
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I can personally confirm everything that everyone everywhere has stated about these speakers is true. A great many things came together to make them better than even Sandy expected. Definitely Product of the Year. It should win awards at the Consumer Electronics Show for advancing the science and art of speaker design and manufacturing.
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post #203 of 2537 Old 01-05-2011, 11:59 PM
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Hi, Regarding using non-matched rears: I think that if you were asking me about a non-matched center, I would say try very, very hard not to. Regarding the rears, although not optimal, if they are reasonably close it can be ok. What surrounds were you thinking of using? Sandy
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post #204 of 2537 Old 01-06-2011, 06:56 AM
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Sandy,

I wrote in inquiry on your web site about future dealers in the Kansas City area as there isn't any very close. Haven't heard back but hopefully you will be settting up a dealer in the western MO, Eastern KS area. Would really like to hear the Tritons
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post #205 of 2537 Old 01-06-2011, 07:41 AM
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i just got my sound & vision in the mail yesterday

they look better on the cover than they do at the website

looks like they got a nice review also

i will definitely audition them but i'm not so sure i'm ready to give up my bi-polars

i have the original bp2000s, the only def tech bp towers that are completely sealed from head to toe. i can't even imagine better sound but we'll see

by the way, someone posted here that bi-polar tweeters are "out of phase". that's not accurate. you're thinking about di-polar speakers

All this noise about noise.
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post #206 of 2537 Old 01-06-2011, 08:06 AM
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Hi Randy, GoldenEar will be sold by Independence Audio in Independence Missouri. I spoke with Scott Huffman there and he told me that they were going to be a dealer. Give him a call and I'm sure that he will be happy to let you know when the Tritons arrive. Sandy
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post #207 of 2537 Old 01-06-2011, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by goldenear tech View Post

Hi Randy, GoldenEar will be sold by Independence Audio in Independence Missouri. I spoke with Scott Huffman there and he told me that they were going to be a dealer. Give him a call and I'm sure that he will be happy to let you know when the Tritons arrive. Sandy

Thanks, I know Scott.
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post #208 of 2537 Old 01-06-2011, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by goldenear tech View Post

Hi, Regarding using non-matched rears: I think that if you were asking me about a non-matched center, I would say try very, very hard not to. Regarding the rears, although not optimal, if they are reasonably close it can be ok. What surrounds were you thinking of using? Sandy

Paradigm (on-wall Studio Series). I think they are sort of a "dipole hybrid" as they fire dipole to the sides but also have a woofer that fires straight out.

Thanks for the quick response. I am looking forward to a demo in Fairfax, VA at their IQ Store when they get some Triton Twos in.
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post #209 of 2537 Old 01-06-2011, 03:37 PM
 
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Every time an advance is technology is made, a certain type of people come out of the woodwork and try to tear down it down.
They can be many reasons people are disgruntled:

a) are they lazy and just won't go do a simple look listen?
b) did they recently buy expensive speakers with less performance than they are reading here?
c) are they competitors who feel threatened and cast doubt from many angles?
d) do some people have tin ears?
e) do people have a comfort zone?
f) do some people have a hard time adapting to change?

For these and other reasons, the more the truth is exposed, the more agitated they become.

Another advanced technology example is the Samsung/Pulses 700 Class D amplifier which eliminates the traditional D/A converter. In fact, the 24 bit audio signal is kept in the digital domain until the amplifiers output stage. This $300 receiver set off a firestorm in the Receiver and Amp forum, with the similar types of response.
My advice is: let them throw the mud. Stick to the facts and other members will see the good through the evil.

Personally I can't wait to connect this increased resolution receiver to the increased resolution Triton Two Towers. Oh happy day!
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post #210 of 2537 Old 01-07-2011, 04:17 PM
 
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Domed Tweeter End-Of-Life Notification
These inexpensive to manufacture tweeters are responsible for many audible flaws, namely limited dynamic range and resolution. When pushed they become edgy and congested. With 24 bit lossless audio, they are the weakest link in many speaker designs. A recent speaker review calls this effect "unforgiving a high levels".
Of course traditional manufactures hooked on doomed tweeters. They try convince their latest tweeters are "new and improved". Frankly speaking, I'm tired hearing this BS!

Commercial Biases
I want to take the time to point out how advertising budgets can influence reviews and lead to many humorous inconsistencies and ironies. This is will become relevant to illustrate the battle lines being drawn.

Here is an embarrassing response of a recently reviewed $27K speaker with a value rating of 4.5 stars:

Is this why many recommended systems sound better with Audussey "room" correction engaged? Its it only the room that is being "corrected"?

In the February 2011 issue, one reviewer calls his reference MK 950 speakers sound quality "flat and lifeless" without Audessy frequency response modification when reviewing an Onkyo Processor. A second reviewer then remarkably reviews this just mentioned MK 950 speaker, and measures a midrange suck-out and peaked treble. He describes the unequalized sound as having an "amazing openness and lightness that is hard to characterize" (in other words magical)!

Need I say more? Well I should because there is a hugely entertaining speaker battle erupting bewteen Mr. Gross's former employer and his new speaker company!

Triton Two: Rebel With a Cause
Just one listen to the Trinton Two Towers casts all this commercial based nonsense aside as the tower speakers disappear. No room correction or bi/di-polar tweeter phase tricks are needed to create the huge precise soundstage. The speaker exhibits record breaking and compelling refinement for the widest range of sound pressure levels. These sonic triumphs can be attributed to abandoning dome tweeters and also the refinement, precision and experience of the manufacture team. Further the woofers voice coils point toward to the listener. They are in the same plane as the other drivers. Previous woofers designs fired off to the side, severely degrading the sonic soundstage. All these are good reasons to not have like Definitive Technology speakers (a point I made earlier in this thread).

When auditioning remember to initially position the woofer level at nine o'clock, then fine from there.
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