Polk Audio M60 vs Energy RC-10 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 02-03-2010, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys/girls, new here. Just building a new stereo system. Going to be mostly for Music, but will hook to my computer sometimes too.

I'm buying a Onkyo TX8555 receiver (maybe HK3390 or 3490)

Want to spend around $300 for speakers and can get the RC-10's and Polk M60's for same price. Is there any way the RC-10 can even compete with this speaker since its much bigger?
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post #2 of 34 Old 02-03-2010, 05:07 PM
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the RC-10s can compete because they sound better! more balanced, no shrill highs. It won't have as much bass as the Monitor 60 though.

The HK 3390 and 3490 have sub outputs, you should add a sub if you want quality bass.

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post #3 of 34 Old 02-03-2010, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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thinking about really stepping up and getting a Onkyo TX-SR607 for future upgrades, and RC-10's for now so then I can upgrade to bigger RC's for front. Would that receiver power the Energys good? Thx!

Would the RC-10's be able to fill a room with sound as good as the Polk M-60's though?

I just hope the RC-10's have more power then my current setup, which is old Logitech Z640 speakers LOL. Would atleast think they would. Sure they would sound better though...
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post #4 of 34 Old 02-03-2010, 05:50 PM
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Either will have more power than your logitech setup!

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post #5 of 34 Old 02-03-2010, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

the RC-10s can compete because they sound better! more balanced, no shrill highs. It won't have as much bass as the Monitor 60 though.

The HK 3390 and 3490 have sub outputs, you should add a sub if you want quality bass.



Well if you don't like the highs the RC-10s are definitely going to work since the treble rolls off pretty fast.
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post #6 of 34 Old 02-03-2010, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Think I will just get the RC-10's. Just want some good speakers that play nice and loud with no distortion, so hopefully these work ok for that
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post #7 of 34 Old 02-03-2010, 07:17 PM
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post #8 of 34 Old 02-03-2010, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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ok going to order the RC-10's now from Vanns, they are 279 now shipped. I noticed that these even weigh almost as much as the Polk M60's and they are full towers!

Anyways, still deciding on a receiver. Onkyo TX8555 $229 vs HK3490 $349. Is the Harman Kardon worth $120 more? Or any other Stereo receivers I should look at? Thx!
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post #9 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:08 AM
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The RC-10s weigh 14lbs/each. If there are towers that weigh 14lbs they probably can't stand very well.
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post #10 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

The RC-10s weigh 14lbs/each. If there are towers that weigh 14lbs they probably can't stand very well.

The Monitor 60s weigh 31# each according to the Polk website.
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post #11 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post



Well if you don't like the highs the RC-10s are definitely going to work since the treble rolls off pretty fast.

That graph from Soundstage is the OFF-axis response (45, 60, 75 degrees). This is the 2nd or 3rd time in the last couple weeks I've seen the that graph used out of proper context.

The highs are certainly not missing with the RC-10. Here's a graph showing ON-axis, and 15 and 30 degrees off-axis:

Very little roll-off even at 30 degrees.
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post #12 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 08:41 AM
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JMHO, but the Polk M60s are a fantastic speaker and offer more range then the RC10 (which is also a good speaker).

I have the M60s paired with a CS2 center and M30s rear, powered by a 507 and I bet this setup would impress all but the most avid of AV junkies.

Oh and FWIW, the M60s weight 35.1lbs each, according to my scale.
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post #13 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

That graph from Soundstage is the OFF-axis response (45, 60, 75 degrees). This is the 2nd or 3rd time in the last couple weeks I've seen the that graph used out of proper context.

what, you don't listen at 60 degrees off axis?

I agree that graph is very misleading.

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post #14 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

That graph from Soundstage is the OFF-axis response (45, 60, 75 degrees). This is the 2nd or 3rd time in the last couple weeks I've seen the that graph used out of proper context.

The highs are certainly not missing with the RC-10. Here's a graph showing ON-axis, and 15 and 30 degrees off-axis:

Very little roll-off even at 30 degrees.

astrallite has used that graph out of context quite a few times already. No one listens that far off axis. It's totally misleading. I would ignore his post. The RC-10's have a flat response throughout and are great speakers!

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post #15 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmacmil View Post

The Monitor 60s weigh 31# each according to the Polk website.

? Ok? And?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menasor View Post

astrallite has used that graph out of context quite a few times already. No one listens that far off axis. It's totally misleading. I would ignore his post. The RC-10's have a flat response throughout and are great speakers!

From what I've seen most people do not toe in their speakers which means they sit close to 45 degrees off axis. Out of context? When did I say someone sits 60 or 75 degrees off axis? Claiming that I take graphs out of context is kind of a funny statement since you made up an imaginary point of view that you are convinced I have?

And how exactly does the RC-10 have a flat response "throughout"? Or are you closing your eyes and pretending the graph I quoted doesn't exist?

It seems to me most people here think "headphone" measurements with a mic between the tweeter and woofer is what a speaker sounds like. The fact is, in normal listening positions, the sound you get at your ears is the complex sum of on-axis and off-axis performance, which is why you perceive some speakers as "bright" and others as "warm" even though they measure exactly the same with a typical on-axis microphone measurement. Unless you sit right next to your speakers in a headphone alignment (speakers at either side of your head, pointed directly at your ears), those measurements, taken at face value, are misleading.
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post #16 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

? Ok? And?



From what I've seen most people do not toe in their speakers which means they sit close to 45 degrees off axis. Out of context? When did I say someone sits 60 or 75 degrees off axis? Claiming that I take graphs out of context is kind of a funny statement since you made up an imaginary point of view you think I made.

And how exactly does the RC-10 have a flat response "throughout"? Or are you closing your eyes and pretending the graph I quoted doesn't exist?


You posted a graph that had the frequency of response for 45, 60, 75, without noting what it was for. Most people would assume that it's the normal response graph. When people say flat response, it's on axis, or slightly off axis. No one claims to have a flat response 45+ degrees off axis. Any speaker is going to have that kind of treble rolloff that far off axis (except for your beloved Paradigms).

A knowledgeable person would know this and toe in their speakers slightly. It's all part of knowing your gear and getting it set up right. Clearly what you did was mislead the op into thinking that the RC-10's had a very poor treble response on axis.

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post #17 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:27 PM
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out of context = you provided the severe off-axis graph WITHOUT PROVIDING THE CONTEXT that the graph represents the extreme off-axis measurements.

without this context, it is misleading because it appears you are representing the speaker as having a severe treble roll-off, which is false OUTSIDE OF THE CONTEXT of an extreme off-axis measurement.

Quote:


the treble rolls off pretty fast.

am I delusional, or is that an actual point of view you expressed as opposed to "an imaginary point of view you think I made"?

you made a claim, and backed it up with a graph that was provided WITH NO CONTEXT for what it was measuring. that is highly misleading.

the 45 degree assertion is highly dubious, not sure if you failed geometry but even with no toe-in most people are going to be approximately at the point of an equilateral triangle, which would mean they were 30-degrees off axis. and, this is worst case, since many people space their fronts much more narrowly than that and thus would be even less than 30-degrees off axis.

a 45-degree spread would indicate the speakers are approximately 1.4 times further apart than the listener is from the speakers, e.g. you are 10' away but the speakers are 14' apart. Not likely.

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post #18 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menasor View Post

A knowledgeable person would know this and toe in their speakers slightly. It's all part of knowing your gear and getting it set up right. Clearly what you did was mislead the op into thinking that the RC-10's had a very poor treble response on axis.

Now this is a good one. You establish your own semantics, and then state I am misleading. Unless you are best friends with the OP and are soul mates, trying to pass of your ASSUMPTION of my position followed by stating your own semantics like they are "matter of fact" is outright hilarious.

Quote:



you made a claim, and backed it up with a graph that was provided WITH NO CONTEXT for what it was measuring. that is highly misleading.

High five! Congrats. First you claim I am out of context, now I have no context, while QUOTING THE SAME POST. How convenient. Which is right? You flip flop more than Kerry. The last time I checked you can't say "yes" and then "no" to the same topic and be simultaneously arguing against a position at the same time.
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post #19 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Menasor View Post

No one claims to have a flat response 45+ degrees off axis. Any speaker is going to have that kind of treble rolloff that far off axis (except for your beloved Paradigms).

well so will Paradigms. Here are identical measurements of the Studio 10:

on axis (0/15/30):




off-axis (45/60/75):


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post #20 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Now this is a good one. You establish your own semantics, and then state I am misleading. Unless you are best friends with the OP and are soul mates, trying to pass of your ASSUMPTION of my position followed by stating your own semantics like they are "matter of fact" is outright hilarious.

Wow am I talking to a brick wall here? So you're going to say...


"Well if you don't like the highs the RC-10s are definitely going to work since the treble rolls off pretty fast"


So wait... if you're providing a graph for 45,60,75 degrees and making that statement... you're going to assume the op knows what you're talking about right? Also, have you seen all of the other high end speakers that are measured that far off axis? Oh what do you know... they look quite similar with the treble rolloff. You act like the RC-10's characteristic is that they have a uniquely fast treble rolloff when that is in fact, NOT TRUE. If you don't get that, then I don't have anything else to say.

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post #21 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:37 PM
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your ASSUMPTION of my position

what is there to assume? are these not your words?

Quote:


the treble rolls off pretty fast.

yes or no?

Quote:


First you claim I am out of context, now I have no context, while QUOTING THE SAME POST. How convenient. Which is right? You flip flop more than Kerry

now that is bizarre. where I come from, saying something is "out of context" is fairly synonymous with "no context". how is that a flip-flop? it is "out of context" because you failed to provide the context, that is what "out of context" means!!

there is no flip-flip: YOU ARE ASSERTING SOMETHING AND BACKING IT UP WITH DATA THAT IS TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT AND IS THUS MISLEADING. clear enough?

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post #22 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

well so will Paradigms. Here are identical measurements of the Studio 10:

on axis (0/15/30):




off-axis (45/60/75):



I was being sarcastic heh. He quoted those measurements in another post to prove that Paradigms don't have treble rolloff off axis. But hey, look at that! All speakers do! astrallite=fail

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post #23 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:43 PM
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astrallite=fail

yup. I'm still waiting for the geometry lesson about how people sit at the vertex of a right isosceles triangle

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post #24 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menasor View Post

You posted a graph that had the frequency of response for 45, 60, 75, without noting what it was for. Most people would assume that it's the normal response graph. When people say flat response, it's on axis, or slightly off axis. No one claims to have a flat response 45+ degrees off axis. Any speaker is going to have that kind of treble rolloff that far off axis (except for your beloved Paradigms).

Here's quite a few speakers who don't roll off like your beloved Energys. I also had a pair of C-3s for quite a while which I loved, but unfortunately no longer have due to circumstances outside of my control. I love and own a lot of speakers of different brands. In fact I have trouble finding speakers that roll off like your BELOVED Energys.







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post #25 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:50 PM
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if your claim was a more reasonable one, such as "Energy's don't have the best extreme off-axis performance", I don't think anyone would take issue with it. Had you properly couched the data you provided in context, and not been so belligerent, it would have helped too

I don't know why you have to start up with some fanboy flame action, I think all of us are comfortable admitting that there are plenty of speakers in the world better than Energy. They aren't "beloved", just a great value for the money, a sentiment which is shared by pretty much any professional review.

And those graphs don't seem to be that much of an issue for the reviewer. For example, quoting the Soundstage review from which you took your graph:

Quote:


Energy and Amphion embrace similar design philosophies of flat frequency response both on and off axis, and wide dispersion. What that means to the listener is that both companies manufacture speakers that test well in an anechoic chamber, but also work well in real-world listening rooms. Although the RC-10s don't extend quite as low as the Argon2s, they seem to be just as flat throughout their frequency range.

Quote:


No speaker is perfect, and while the RC-10s have some shortcomings, they are relatively minor. Their sonics and manufacturing quality put them in a very competitive position with speakers in the $1000-per-pair range -- almost twice what they cost. In regard to their ultra-smooth top end, they can compete with any speaker I've heard, and better most of them. Their bass response belies their small cabinet and driver size. At their asking price, they are simply without equal.


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post #26 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Menasor View Post

I was being sarcastic heh. He quoted those measurements in another post to prove that Paradigms don't have treble rolloff off axis. But hey, look at that! All speakers do! astrallite=fail

No, all speakers do roll off. But not all speakers roll off exactly like your Energy speakers, which apparently you believe. Menasor = fail!
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post #27 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

if your claim was a more reasonable one, such as "Energy's don't have the best extreme off-axis performance"

Someone stated that the speakers were warm, and my purpose was to re-assert that his claim was correct--if you like warm speakers, that's the way to go.

Linear or roll-off on the off-axis are different design decisions so I would never assume one is better than the other, and I don't believe one is better than the other, it comes down to personal preference, and in this case, they are definitely warm speakers. Warm is a relative term (it has no meaning by itself), and it has less treble energy than most of the other speakers that have been measured, on the off-axis. And in the majority of seating positions, you are listening to the complex sum of off-axis and on-axis sound unless you are right next to the speakers and literally wearing them like headphones.

Anyway, I am sure they are fantastic speakers. I've listened to the Veritas and had a pair of the C-3s (someone broke into my college dorm and pilfered them) but I enjoyed them both.
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post #28 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 03:07 PM
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I would actually call them neutral more than warm. Maybe a wee bit to the warm side of neutral. They do have a little mid-bass "bloom" from 80-200Hz, and are "warm" relative to something like Paradigm or Monitor Audio, but when I think of "warm" I think of speakers with a mushed-out rolled-off treble, like a silk-dome tweeter or something. The Energy's use an aluminum dome tweeter that stays pretty flat (on axis ) all the way up....

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post #29 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

No, all speakers do roll off. But not all speakers roll off exactly like your Energy speakers, which apparently you believe. Menasor = fail!

I never said that all speakers roll off as much as the Energy's. I'm just saying that all speakers do roll off. I'm glad that we finally reached an agreement here.

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post #30 of 34 Old 02-04-2010, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by astrallite View Post

Here's quite a few speakers who don't roll off like your beloved Energys. I also had a pair of C-3s for quite a while which I loved, but unfortunately no longer have due to circumstances outside of my control. I love and own a lot of speakers of different brands. In fact I have trouble finding speakers that roll off like your BELOVED Energys.








Just so I'm clear....your argument is that the above graphs show speakers that DO NOT roll off in the high frequencies like the RC-10, correct?

Assuming that these are off axis graphs at the same angles as the off-axis graph of the RC-10 (45, 60, 75)...

Look at the frequency response above 5kHz in the 2nd and 3rd graphs, and particularly above 10kHz in all 3....

While they don't start rolling off as low as the RC-10...the rolloff above 5kHz looks more pronounced to me. I would argue the RC-10 has better off-axis response at 45 degrees than any of the speakers represented by the above graphs. One might even argue that the RC-10 has better response at 60 degrees off-axis than some of those speakers - perhaps a little more debatable...


If your argument is only that they don't roll in the same way as the RC-10... OK, fair enough, I won't argue that.

EDIT: Call me crazy, but it looks to me like the 2nd and 3rd graphs you posted are identical...as in the exact same image posted twice.
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