definitive technology promonitor 800 vs definitive technology promonitor 1000 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 02-03-2010, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I plan on buying either the 1000 or 800's for my left and right surround speakers. I'd like to save the money and get 800's for 145 each instead of 219 for the 1000's . will I hear a noticeable difference by getting the 1000's even if it's just for surround? My other speakers
consist of ML preface L and right., ML encore for center and I plan on buying ML dynamo 500 for sub..
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post #2 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 05:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone have any input?
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post #3 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davide128 View Post

I plan on buying either the 1000 or 800's for my left and right surround speakers. I'd like to save the money and get 800's for 145 each instead of 219 for the 1000's . will I hear a noticeable difference by getting the 1000's even if it's just for surround? My other speakers
consist of ML preface L and right., ML encore for center and I plan on buying ML dynamo 500 for sub..

Davide,

I have used both the 800 and 1000s as surrounds.

If your room is larger, I would go with the 1000s. If you like/listen to MC music I would also favor the 1000s.

If the purchase is only a stop-gap until you get ML surrounds, save the cash and get 800s.

The bass management ability of your AVR is also a factor:
If you can not set the cross over frequency of the surorunds to be different from the ML fronts, then get the larger woofer in the 1000s to integrate better.

If you can set the crossover freq, then the other factors come into play.

Hope that helps,
XEagleDriver

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post #4 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Guess this stuff is a bit over my head.Not sure what you mean by setting cross over frequency. Can you explain or point me to information the theory/logic behind fine tunning speaker configurations. mean I have an idea as I know certain frequencies get routed to certain speakers which is handled by crossover. so big speakers would get low frequencies and tweeters would get high frequencies but why do I need to change these in my surround? what's the logic behind it
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post #5 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davide128 View Post

Guess this stuff is a bit over my head.Not sure what you mean by setting cross over frequency. Can you explain or point me to information the theory/logic behind fine tunning speaker configurations. mean I have an idea as I know certain frequencies get routed to certain speakers which is handled by crossover. so big speakers would get low frequencies and tweeters would get high frequencies but why do I need to change these in my surround? what's the logic behind it

Basically you would need to set the output of your AVR for the surrounds to a frequency that doesn't drop below the lowest freq of the surround speakers u purchase
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post #6 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok but why and what's the logic behind it
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post #7 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 06:56 AM
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if the AVR sends frequencies lower then the speaker can handle it will blow the speaker
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post #8 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought this was more of a fine tunning/intergration and getting the best sound issue. based on comments made above

"If you can not set the cross over frequency of the surorunds to be different from the ML fronts, then get the larger woofer in the 1000s to integrate better" I have the denon2310 so I believe I can set the frequency so what other factors come into play
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post #9 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davide128 View Post

Guess this stuff is a bit over my head.Not sure what you mean by setting cross over frequency. Can you explain or point me to information the theory/logic behind fine tunning speaker configurations. mean I have an idea as I know certain frequencies get routed to certain speakers which is handled by crossover. so big speakers would get low frequencies and tweeters would get high frequencies but why do I need to change these in my surround? what's the logic behind it

Sure, no problem. If this explanation is either to simple or complex, my apologies in advance.

When you incorporate a subwoofer into your system, you get options to specify where low frequency signals will be produced. Specifically, you get to choose (via bass management in the AVR) which speakers will reproduce low frequencies and which will have their low frequency signals sent to the sub.

Note: This is entirely separate from the speaker's internal crossover, the electronics inside a given speaker that splits the incoming audio signal to the tweeter, midrange, and woofer. The process we are discussing is about which speakers themselves (the whole box) get or do not get fed low frequency signals.

Bass Management is done in two or three steps in your AVR;

1) First, you specify to the AVR which speakers are "large" (i.e. are allowed to produce all frequencies) and which are "small" (their low freq signals are sent to the sub).

2) Second, you specify to the AVR the "crossover frequency" (or CF) to use (normally 40, 60, 80, 100 Hz, etc.) in deciding where to divide low frequencies from high for the previously designated "small" speakers.

This is where more advanced AVRs let you set more than one crossover frequency. For example, the AVR may allow one CF for your mains (say 60Hz) and a different CF (say 100Hz) for the surrounds.

The different CFs are based on the size and capability of the speakers to produce low frequencies. To continue with the example, the mains may be towers with 6.5" woofers (like your MLs), and the surrounds may be bookshelves with only 4.5" woofers like a Def Tech 800. In general, larger woofers (and cabinets) are able to produce lower frequencies. This is like a football team assigning run play duties to short, stocky running backs, and receiving duties to tall, lanky receivers--get the right players (speakers) to work the right plays (frequencies). I have Superbowl on my mind--GO SAINTS!

3) Some AVRs also let you specify if low frequencies will be sent to; just the sub, just the "large" speakers, or sent to both. Most folks use the just the sub option.

Hope this helps,
XEagleDriver

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post #10 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Thx for this detailed response. I'm still confused as to how this will make the 5.1 sound better? what configuration do you recommend and why. Should I set my ML to "large" and sub to "yes/on" and surround to "small"? by setting CF to 60 on my ML will any sound 60 or below will go to SUB and anything above 60 will go to MAins? if I set my surrounds to 100 then any frequency above 100 will play on my surrounds? if I set both mains and surrounds to 80 then both set of speakers will produce the sound?. What's your recommended setup.also, what's the order that the AVR to send out these frequencies? does it try the mains first and then the surrounds. sorry just a bit confused : )

"If you can set the crossover freq, then the other factors come into play." which factors are we talking about here
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post #11 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davide128 View Post

Thx for this detailed response. I'm still confused as to how this will make the 5.1 sound better?

It improves the sound by having the subwoofer reproduce the very low frequencies (below the CF you set) which are difficult, or impossible, for the smaller speakers to handle. It is all about improving the sound of the bass, and in turn, allowing smaller speakers to then produce better mids and highs, because they are not "choking" trying to produce bass frequencies they just can not do.

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What configuration do you recommend and why.
a) Should I set my ML to "large" and
b) Sub to "yes/on" and
c) Surrounds to "small"?

According to the ML web site: Preface speakers are able to produce from 35Hz to 20,000 Hz at ±3dB.
a) That is a very respectable front speaker capability, so you have two choices (both will work):
1) Set the MLs (your Front L/R) to large, OR
2) Set the MLs to small and the crossover to 40Hz. (I.e. just a bit above the MLs specified low end of 35 Hz)

b) Yes, set the sub to YES or ON

c) Yes, either the PC800s or 1000s would best be set to small.
From the Def Tech web site, the low frequency 3db point for 800s/1000s are 57Hz and 42Hz respectively. Therefore, for 800s I would set CF to 80Hz, and for 1000s I would set the CF to 60 Hz.


Quote:


By setting CF to 60 on my ML will any sound 60 or below will go to SUB and anything above 60 will go to Mains?

Yes, but only for the Front Left and Front Right audio signals. By golly I think you got it!

Quote:


If I set my surrounds to 100 then any frequency above 100 will play on my surrounds?

Yes, and the SUB will play any frequencies from the surround left & right audio signals below 100 Hz. The sub will also play the low freqs (below 60Hz) from your mains as you indicated above--and do it at the same time, with style and class

Quote:


If I set both mains and surrounds to 80 then both set of speakers will produce the sound?.

Yes, both sets will produce sounds above 80 Hz from their respective audio signals, and the SUB will produce all frequencies below 80Hz!


Quote:


. . . what's the order that the AVR (use) to send out these frequencies? does it try the mains first and then the surrounds. sorry just a bit confused : )

No, keep in mind in a 5.1 set-up each channel (FL, C, FR, SR and SL) are getting separate and different audio signals. Just like the left and right channels in your Dad's old fashioned "STEREO" set-up gets a separate, and distinct audio signal (thats the whole point of either stereo or 5.1, isn't it).

You also asked about a "prefered setup". That is a more difficult question to answer, it varies and normally involves some trial and error.

Here is a quick process to help you find out what works in your room, with your equipment, and your speakers.

1) Read up on how to place speakers in a room, and follow these guidlines as well as your room will allow.
2) If your AVR has an "Auto" set-up feature (MCACC, YPAO or Audessy) using a microphone--USE THIS FEATURE!
3) Take the time to listen to some CDs and DVDs with what the AVR has calculated. You need this reference to see if any changes you make later on improve or worsen the sound.
4) Find and note the low frequency capability of your speakers and then check that the "Auto" set-up derived values seem to make sense.
5) Perform "manual" set-up experiments (the how is in your AVR's Owners Manual) to see if you can/should improve the results of the Auto set-up procedure.

I have used Yamaha's YPAO and it was OK, but needed some adjustments.
I have also used Denon's Audessy Multi-Point and I could not improve on it.

Making any sense yet?

XEagleDriver
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post #12 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Thx so much for your help. you really gave a great explanation, better than any I have read online. I think I got it now!. Finally! what's that plus minus 3db mean?
being that my receiver can adjust crossover , do you think I will be ok with surround 800's? my room is large but not huge..about 16x22..about 13 feet away from center channel.how about my ML encore center speaker..what should I set that CF to? looks like it should be 80...
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post #13 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davide128 View Post

Thx so much for your help. you really gave a great explanation, better than any I have read online. I think I got it now!.

a) Finally! what's that plus minus 3db mean?

b) Being that my receiver can adjust crossover , do you think I will be ok with surround 800's? my room is large but not huge..about 16x22..about 13 feet away from center channel.

c) How about my ML encore center speaker..what should I set that CF to? looks like it should be 80...


Glad to have helped!

a) Plus/minus 3 db is engineering (geek) speak for the point at which the sound level (or SPL) is half the previous value. It is used to mark the frequency above or below which the speaker can not longer produce significant sound.

A "perfect" (and non-existent) audio speaker would have a plus/minus 3db below 20 Hz and also above 20,000Hz--giving a "flat" response inbetween those low and high values.

b) In your sized room, I would opt for the 1000s as long as you intend to keep them for a while.

c) Yes, 80Hz for the Encore center with it's 70-20,000 Hz ±3dB frequency response is about right.

Have you already bought the Encore?

What receiver do you have?

Do you know if your AVR allows setting separate CFs?


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post #14 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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The encore should be arriving today . why? is it not a good match for the rest of my speakers? particularly my DENON preface?

I have the denon 2310 which I believe allows setting separate CFs
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post #15 of 15 Old 02-04-2010, 11:38 AM
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Here's a pretty simple setup guide by def tech. http://www.definitivetech.com/docume...20101_edit.pdf

Here are their recommended crossover settings http://www.definitivetech.com/docume...20101_edit.pdf

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