Longmont Man Indicted On Suspicion of Charity Fraud - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1523 Old 03-02-2010, 01:41 PM
 
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Several posters have already tried to paint Emotiva with the same brush as AV123. This is how these things progress, so be careful not to extend the MLS case beyond what it is. I own an all Emotiva speaker setup along with an XPA-5 amp, and have been very pleased with everything. Any involvement between the two companies was ended quite some time ago, IIRC.
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post #272 of 1523 Old 03-02-2010, 01:52 PM
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I may have missed some posts, but the only such comparisons I've seen have been related to the fan-bases that exist (or existed, in AV123's case) on their company forums. I can't argue with those comparisons. Emotiva has held one charity fund-raiser that I know of, and it was affiliated with St. Jude/ALSAC (a children's research hospital here in Memphis, where my wife works as an IT project manager for the fund-raising branch). What I've heard about that event was the polar opposite of Schifter's raffles - Emotiva did it right.

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post #273 of 1523 Old 03-02-2010, 02:06 PM
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Well, I'll come right out and say that I am one of those people who find SOME of the behaviors of Emotiva to be concerning - this does not mean they are operating a fraudulent business but their online tactics (wiping off threads) and recent airing of bad blood between co-workers is not a good sign of good business practice. Neither is a very classy way to conduct business.

Emotiva does seem to produce nice products at great prices - kudos to them. I do have several industry contacts that suggest they may have been operating way too close to the edge of operating budget on their recent pre/pro headache and this will likely cause the product to be a net loss item... As I stated in another thread I'd rather pay more for a similar item to Emotiva (in my case sherbourn) with the mindset that they are more likely to be in buisness 5 years from now when I may need service.

Back to the issue at hand - VA321.
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post #274 of 1523 Old 03-02-2010, 02:23 PM
 
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Senator Joe McCarthy actually did root out some communists in the 50s, but we all know how that turned out. I haven't seen a forum yet that didn't delete posts on occasion, this one included. It's a slippery slope once you start to expand suspicion from one ID company with an owner under indictment to others.

Edit: I must have missed the "dirty laundry" on the Emotiva forum, what happened?
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post #275 of 1523 Old 03-02-2010, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Edit: I must have missed the "dirty laundry" on the Emotiva forum, what happened?

It's a bit off-topic for this thread, of course, but there have been an assortment of issues relating to UMC-1 bugs and Dann G.'s resignation that generated some "weirdness" on Emotiva's forum.

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post #276 of 1523 Old 03-02-2010, 02:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gonk View Post

It's a bit off-topic for this thread, of course, but there have been an assortment of issues relating to UMC-1 bugs and Dann G.'s resignation that generated some "weirdness" on Emotiva's forum.

Hmm, I don't go over there that much, I must have missed the Dann G. resignation. As far as the products go, I love my speakers and amp, but I wouldn't go near the processors, too buggy.

Sorry to continue the off topic, but I researched the "incident", very funny! Hardly in the same league as an indictment, however.
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post #277 of 1523 Old 03-02-2010, 11:36 PM
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Well. 400 for a sub of it's "supposed caliber" was what got me hooked. I should of went with HSU or Empire. I just hope the sub lasts for a bit. I'd hate for this thing to go out in 3months with no where to turn. I think in less then 2 months av123 will be no more.

What a ****** thing to do. Well, you reap what you sow.

On another topic, anyone want to buy a MFW15 sub?
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post #278 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 04:05 AM
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On another topic, anyone want to buy a MFW15 sub?

I'm pretty happy with my SVS PC13-Ultra, thanks.
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post #279 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jarablue View Post

Well. 400 for a sub of it's "supposed caliber" was what got me hooked. I should of went with HSU or Empire. I just hope the sub lasts for a bit. I'd hate for this thing to go out in 3months with no where to turn. I think in less then 2 months av123 will be no more.

What a ****** thing to do. Well, you reap what you sow.

On another topic, anyone want to buy a MFW15 sub?

I just bought one used, here in Medellin, very hard to find un this country.
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post #280 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jarablue View Post

Well. 400 for a sub of it's "supposed caliber" was what got me hooked. I should of went with HSU or Empire. I just hope the sub lasts for a bit. I'd hate for this thing to go out in 3months with no where to turn. I think in less then 2 months av123 will be no more.

What a ****** thing to do. Well, you reap what you sow.

On another topic, anyone want to buy a MFW15 sub?

I'm not trying to talk you out of selling it...but..Motor city custom Audio is working on a upgrade kit for them,so you will have 1 avenue to go..http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3884379

Mac
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post #281 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 07:51 AM
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What a POS glad I didnt buy anything from him or his company. There's two things I can't stand is liars and thiefs, and the combination of both is just ugh
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post #282 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jarablue View Post

Well. 400 for a sub of it's "supposed caliber" was what got me hooked. I should of went with HSU or Empire. I just hope the sub lasts for a bit. I'd hate for this thing to go out in 3months with no where to turn. I think in less then 2 months av123 will be no more.

What a ****** thing to do. Well, you reap what you sow.

On another topic, anyone want to buy a MFW15 sub?

I wouldn't sell it, it is a great sub. I own one as well, and when the indictment came out, I thought the same thing...here are my thoughts. If your sub craps out down the road (assuming AV123 is not around), even if you don't want to upgrade to Seatons new amp and driver, there are a ton of people that will, so there should be several of your current amps and drivers on the used market for dirt cheap, should you ever need them.
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post #283 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarablue View Post

Well. 400 for a sub of it's "supposed caliber" was what got me hooked. I should of went with HSU or Empire. I just hope the sub lasts for a bit. I'd hate for this thing to go out in 3months with no where to turn. I think in less then 2 months av123 will be no more.

What a ****** thing to do. Well, you reap what you sow.

On another topic, anyone want to buy a MFW15 sub?

Sure, how about $300??

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post #284 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 08:44 AM
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The amount of the money is what stands out to me....it's not much. In my opinion, if the man was the great Satan that many are trying making him out to be it would have been a scam of much greater proportions. My take is that he started out trying to do the right things and probably got in over his head and then ebgan to rationalize certain actions with the caveat t hat he'd make it right as soon as....

If you are part of the human condition, and we all are, then if the conditions, the curcumstances are right, you're capable of doing most anything that any human being has done. How many of you are rigorously honest in all of your affairs? I'm not out to defend the man I'm just tired of reading "holier than thou" posts from people who by the very nature of being part of the human conditon are flawed.

Yes, what he did was wrong. No denying that but get off the high horses and go walk on water and then I'll believe that you have a right to harshly judge.
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post #285 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 08:49 AM
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The amount of the money is what stands out to me....it's not much. In my opinion, if the man was the great Satan that many are trying making him out to be it would have been a scam of much greater proportions. My take is that he started out trying to do the right things and probably got in over his head and then ebgan to rationalize certain actions with the caveat t hat he'd make it right as soon as....

If you are part of the human condition, and we all are, then if the conditions, the curcumstances are right, you're capable of doing anything that any human being has done. How many of you are rigorously honest in all of your affairs? I'm not out to defend the man I'm just tired of reading "holier than thou" posts from people who by the very nature of being part of the human conditon are flawed.

Yes, what he did was wrong. No denying that but get off the high horses and go walk on water and then I'll believe that you have a right to harshly judge.

I don't agree at all. This guy did this over many years and he started cheating the charities from the get go. You can't give this guy a pass because, well, "everybody makes a mistake". Besides there is more to come. The charities are only part of the story.
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post #286 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

The amount of the money is what stands out to me....it's not much. In my opinion, if the man was the great Satan that many are trying making him out to be it would have been a scam of much greater proportions. My take is that he started out trying to do the right things and probably got in over his head and then ebgan to rationalize certain actions with the caveat t hat he'd make it right as soon as....

If you are part of the human condition, and we all are, then if the conditions, the curcumstances are right, you're capable of doing anything that any human being has done. How many of you are rigorously honest in all of your affairs? I'm not out to defend the man I'm just tired of reading "holier than thou" posts from people who by the very nature of being part of the human conditon are flawed.

Yes, what he did was wrong. No denying that but get off the high horses and go walk on water and then I'll believe that you have a right to harshly judge.


You make a good point, I don't think theft should be frowned upon until we get up into at least the half-a-million $$ ballpark.
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post #287 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 08:57 AM
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The amount of money gained is pathetic, isn't it? I'm not saying he made a "mistake" and that there was no motive to steal. I'm saying that it's probably more complex than that. That there was probably a catalyst, a defining event, that created financial stress, and then the plan, the rationalizations and justifications. There's a little good and bad in all of us. Most people exhibit "cash register" honesty. That why I prize integrity which is doing the right thing even when people aren't looking, no matter what. He lacked integrity.
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post #288 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 08:59 AM
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You make a good point, I don't think theft should be frowned upon until we get up into at least the half-a-million $$ ballpark.


That's funny. Again, have you been rigorously honest in all your affairs? If not, then who are you to judge. As Roger Bacon wrote, "God doesn't presume to judge a man until he is dead, Sir! Why should I."
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post #289 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:09 AM
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The amount of money gained is pathetic, isn't it? I'm not saying he made a "mistake" and that there was no motive to steal. I'm saying that it's probably more complex than that. That there was probably a catalyst, a defining event, that created financial stress, and then the plan, the rationalizations and justifications. There's a little good and bad in all of us. Most people exhibit "cash register" honesty. That why I prize integrity which is doing the right thing even when people aren't looking, no matter what. He lacked integrity.

I always find it interesting how any circumstance or event can be rationalized.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure you mean well with your posts, but they are the epitome of an oxymoron, at least that is how I interpret them.

Clarification: Your posts start off with rationalization of why he may have done the things that he has and that no one has the right to judge him (many posting here were the actual victims in this ordeal, so yes, they can express their disdain to their hearts content IMO). You then end them with "He lacked integrity", why is it okay for you to judge him then?
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post #290 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:15 AM
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Guilty as charged. I should have written "apparently". Again I'm not defending him or trying to rationalize his actions. I try to understand why people do what they do. I'm scared to death of the "evil empire" mentality. I'm scared to death of angry, judgemental mobs. I'm scared to death of people who act as if they have never sinned. I'm scared to death of the crimes self-righteuous people can commit because they're convinced they're morally superior. There's a Zen saying, "Do what you must with people but don't shut your heart to them." I like that.
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post #291 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:20 AM
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That's funny. Again, have you been rigorously honest in all your affairs? If not, then who are you to judge. As Roger Bacon wrote, "God doesn't presume to judge a man until he is dead, Sir! Why should I."

there are many of us who are small business owners who are completely honest in our affairs...

and trust me, we've been through some tough times where it sure would be tempting to not be...

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post #292 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

The amount of the money is what stands out to me....it's not much. In my opinion, if the man was the great Satan that many are trying making him out to be it would have been a scam of much greater proportions. My take is that he started out trying to do the right things and probably got in over his head and then ebgan to rationalize certain actions with the caveat t hat he'd make it right as soon as....

If you are part of the human condition, and we all are, then if the conditions, the curcumstances are right, you're capable of doing most anything that any human being has done. How many of you are rigorously honest in all of your affairs? I'm not out to defend the man I'm just tired of reading "holier than thou" posts from people who by the very nature of being part of the human conditon are flawed.

Yes, what he did was wrong. No denying that but get off the high horses and go walk on water and then I'll believe that you have a right to harshly judge.

I agree that the very first transgression, ripping off the raffles, may be due to this but after that initial one he then set out on a premediatated course of lies and theivery. And this is not to mention all the unreceived products, the prepays for "vaporware", unpaid vendors, and the mountains of lies and excuses he used for his private gain. The guy is decpicable, he knew exactly what he was doing was wrong and had many, many opportunities to make things right but instead he became more and more selfish and opportunistic, hunting out more and more "victims". You and many others out there need to look at this for waht it is; an outright premediatated scam ,(no matter how it started out).
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post #293 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:23 AM
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Look, let me say this as clear as I can. This guy is a con pure and simple. He spun fablulous tales in pursuit of money and cars and fame (and he could turn a phrase, couldn't he?). That is my opinion and I think as the facts come out, it will be apparent even to the "he who has not sinned" crowd.

What I am interested in and what I think may not come out is who in the legitmate audio video industry knew about it and when? This is a very close industry and I find it hard to believe that when Mark was spinning these tales of owning factories all over the world and this and that, that some in the industry didn't know it was bull***t. Read some of the interviews and review of AV123 products in the press. Interesting reading in retrospect.
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post #294 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:23 AM
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That's funny. Again, have you been rigorously honest in all your affairs? If not, then who are you to judge. As Roger Bacon wrote, "God doesn't presume to judge a man until he is dead, Sir! Why should I."


Personally, I don't lie, I don't cheat, and I don't steal. I'm not a saint but those three things I don't do.
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post #295 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:25 AM
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The amount of the money is what stands out to me....it's not much. In my opinion, if the man was the great Satan that many are trying making him out to be it would have been a scam of much greater proportions. My take is that he started out trying to do the right things and probably got in over his head and then ebgan to rationalize certain actions with the caveat t hat he'd make it right as soon as....

He stole 83% of the funds that were meant to go to charities. One of those charities was a family whose father was a well-known member of AV123 Forum's membership and whose daughter was facing significant medical issues. Dozens of people gave money to help keep that family afloat in the face of mounting medical bills. They raised over $30,000 over the course of four separate raffles. Mark kept all but a couple thousand of that money, and even now - years after the last raffle ended - still has failed to deliver the rest. As a result, that family had to clear out retirement funds, sell off belongings, and make other sacrifices. All because of one man's greed, and all in spite of the generosity of others. You may not consider that a lot of money, but I consider it both a significant amount of money and a significantly unacceptable act.

Did he start out trying to do the right thing? The research done last year (before it was largely handed off to the authorities) indicated that the very first raffle was never paid out to the charity. That was back in 2004 - the economy was much better than today, his company was doing extremely well, and he was buying fancy cars and watches for his personal enjoyment (and chatting about those purchases in his forum). Dozens of raffles followed, and that first raffle's money remained undelivered. I've looked at this long and hard, and I've done so with an eye to finding a rational explanation for how someone could have done these things while still having good intentions at heart. I never found one. I don't need to walk on water to feel perfectly comfortable with my very negative opinion of the man.

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post #296 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:26 AM
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Understood Chris and I'm glad people like you exist. I'm a small business owner and I always do the right thing. A by-product of that is that my reputation has grown and attracted more business. But I decided to be prudent and grow slowly. I'm just saying I don't think he's evil or all bad.
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post #297 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:31 AM
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Absolutely, gonk. He was wrong. No doubt. But if one has a mind expansive enough to hold the vision for a company like his, why I wonder, was it so small when it came to the amounts of money that were allegedly stolen? That's what gets me. And I can't get near an answer if I've compartmentalized him and stuffed him away.
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post #298 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:34 AM
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I'm just saying I don't think he's evil or all bad.

I have a hard time labeling any person (aside from perhaps a few truly disturbing historical figures) as "evil" or "all bad" - people are always more complicated than that, and we all have individual flaws and strengths. I would suggest, however, that you look closely at the available facts before you criticize people who have such strong negative opinions - many of us have based our opinions on a foundation of facts that can pretty readily justify that negativity. There have been a few people who have been violently gleeful about his arrest, but there are also a tremendous number of people who have been betrayed and manipulated by him. This indictment is perhaps the single most public indicator of those betrayals. Mark Schifter is not the devil incarnate, but he is also a man who has some very serious problems with honesty, ethics, and morality.

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post #299 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:40 AM
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Absolutely, gonk. He was wrong. No doubt. But if one has a mind expansive enough to hold the vision for a company like his, why I wonder, was it so small when it came to the amounts of money that were allegedly stolen? That's what gets me. And I can't get near an answer if I've compartmentalized him and stuffed him away.

That's an excellent question. Why go to such lengths and act so publicly to steal money like this? I can't explain why. There are known to be business associates who are owed sums of money that rival or even exceed the raffle thefts, though, and it all may tie back together somehow. I never claimed to be able to explain why - I've tried to understand, but can't claim any success in that regard, and my email communications with him have never yielded any effort at an explanation - but at this point, after having been aware of at least some of the theft (although not the full magnitude until now), I can do nothing more than shrug and shake my head.

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post #300 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

....why I wonder, was it so small when it came to the amounts of money that were allegedly stolen? That's what gets me.

That's because you are only looking at the amount that is in the indictment.

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