Longmont Man Indicted On Suspicion of Charity Fraud - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

1. People didn't talk. Who could find out? Hundreds of thousands of companies in China. It's easy to bone a couple. The press made him out to be bigger, wealthier, and more important than he was.

2. That's right. We're accountable for being duped. Some funds, legit, deliver extraordinary returns over a short period. Betting on the dollar to go low just before it did was a killer move. So was betting on the housing slump. Tremendous returns. So was betting on the Yanks to sweep Atlanta in four straight after being down 0-2. I know. That's how I got my speakers! But fraud is fraud. Madoff had a ton of clients and they kept recommending him. Some cashed out a long time ago (with other people's money) long before he went belly up. They told stories. The SEC messed up too. Lousy news reporting. Let's not exonerate the mofo.

Yes Chu, the SEC got some 'splainin' to do....... and not just with our old buddy Madoff. That whole deal with the elimination of the uptick rule, lack of enforcement on naked short selling, and FASB 157 really put the hurt on a lot of people. Cox is lucky he's not behind bars.
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post #362 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

yes, penn, still evil... i don't have a separate set of rules for family members... everyone gets treated equally...

Thats fine!

EVIL is the absolute worst in a person to me. Mass killers, Terrorists, those who willful harm others physically.

Its really a debate about the term EVIL but its semantics and extremely subjective.

I get what people are saying Bad, evil, who cares what the term is. He simply stole money from others and he will be convicted for it.

Question for everyone, once he has done his time will you consider him still EVIL?

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post #363 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 12:54 PM
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No arguement about the general POV.

but ith all due respect to Chu and all the work he has done. It should take intelligent men more then a thread on internet board to pass the absolute judgement of being 100% Evil? Shouldn't it?

Its been going on a LOT longer than that. We have all sinned but should that mean we now no longer have the moral right or ability to judge another's actions? The man admitted to ripping charities off... what more do you want? What extenuating circumstances could put all of the facts now known into favorable light offering the man an acceptable excuse? Poor health? addictions? What excuse will you buy into? And then ask yourself how do you know it isn't just another con job? We all judge one another whether we will cop to it or not.... and THAT is the real human condition.

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post #364 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Lhasa-lover View Post

Actually we are back in agreement. Nothing any of us say matters at all. But you did say earlier that nothing is black and while. There are shades of everything. Running a red light? That's illegal. Stealing money from a cancer victim? Simply calling it illegal somehow misses the mark, I think.

That is my problem, stealing money from the rich and giving it to the poor "Robin Hood" was and is noble and popular in movies.

Stealing money from others and giving it to yourself is EVIL.

Both are illegal and wrong. Both carry the same penalities under law but the emotional opinions on each topic are wide apart.

Personally I do not care who you steal from, its simply stealing. You are no more or less evil from the organization you steal from. If caught you will go to jail, I have no cares for why you did it and at the same time I have no idea if you are purely and EVIL person either.

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post #365 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 12:55 PM
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Without airing dirty laundry in public for all to see you are making assumptions without foundation. All due respect, NOBODY (or at least very damn few) knows addiction better than I do.

Lhasa-lover, having participated in a number of interventions and working with a number of addicts over the years, I too have seen the immense personal devastation and heart wrenching toll brought about by various addictions in family and friends. A rough deal to be sure.
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post #366 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 12:58 PM
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Well, look at this, MLS did do something good....he inspired a philosophical discussion of evil and addiction. I wonder how he would spin that?
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post #367 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 12:59 PM
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haha 13 page death spiral
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post #368 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by monomer View Post

Its been going on a LOT longer than that. We have all sinned but should that mean we now no longer have the moral right or ability to judge another's actions? The man admitted to ripping charities off... what more do you want? What extenuating circumstances could put all of the facts now known into favorable light offering the man an acceptable excuse? Poor health? addictions? What excuse will you buy into? Then how do you know it isn't just another con? We all judge one another whether we will cop to it or not.... and THAT is the real human condition.

Definitely, CHU and I have PMs from I think more then a year ago.

we can all judge but when it comes to the comments. I still wonder what people would feel if it was their own. Do people not care about the other members of the family when they are easily labelling someone?

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post #369 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:00 PM
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Lhasa-lover, having participated in a number of interventions and working with a number of addicts over the years, I too have seen the immense personal devastation and heart wrenching toll brought about by various addictions in family and friends. A rough deal to be sure.

great, I take back the comment that most do not. It seems almost everyone is dealing with addiction or more like its a tough world

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post #370 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:00 PM
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Well, look at this, MLS did do something good....he inspired a philosophical discussion of evil and addiction. I wonder how he would spin that?

He'll probably have some time to think about it........
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post #371 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Well, look at this, MLS did do something good....he inspired a philosophical discussion of evil and addiction. I wonder how he would spin that?

So jail time isnt enough, distruction of his own family isnt enough, we need to label?

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post #372 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:06 PM
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If the following happens what would you do?

1. A few of the people he allegedly burned come forward and say they forgive him. Would you?

2. He does his time as mandated by the court, comes out and admits he was wrong. Do you give him a second chance?

3. If he does his time, gets out and produces a set of speakers that everyone raves about at a price point that makes them an incredible value...would you consider buying them?

If your answer is yes to any of the above then I argue that he is not evil. There is no forgiving people who are truly evil and they should never get a second chance in my opinion, and finally, about the speakers....
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post #373 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:08 PM
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If your answer is yes to any of the above then I agrue he is not evil. There is no forgiving people who are truly eveil and they should never get a second chance in my opinion.

#3 lmao....that would be too funny.

That is what I believe EVIL is too. Its pure black heart stuff, zero redemption, no coming back.

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post #374 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:12 PM
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So jail time isnt enough, distruction of his own family isnt enough, we need to label?

You are funny. You have no trouble agressively dumping on someone you don't agree with.....like Geddes in the sub thread but boy don't "label" someone who did what MLS did.
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post #375 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:12 PM
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great, I take back the comment that most do not. It seems almost everyone is dealing with addiction or more like its a tough world

I think it's more to do with the fact that most of us are similar in age? And that means growing up in culture of drugs that started out one way but quickly spiriled to something else entirely. The generation of Love back in the 60's turned to something very very different in the 70's as addiction became prevelant and friends and family started dying. Not counting the despair and alchohol addiction that the middle class dealt with that led, in part, to the cultural revolution of the mid-60's. So there are many of us of an age to have seen what devastation alcholism (sorry about the spelling) wielded in our parents to what drug addiction did to our younger family and friends. History would have us believe that it was an age of love and peace. Yes...to some degree. But it was something else too. If you were around to see what happened to the Haight district from the mid 60's to the early 70's, you know what I mean.
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post #376 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:21 PM
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If he serves his sentence, pays his fines, makes restitution (that's just the charities, folks), would you buy an audio product from him if somehow he got back in the business?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #377 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:28 PM
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If he serves his sentence, pays his fines, makes restitution (that's just the charities, folks), would you buy an audio product from him if somehow he got back in the business?

Nope. I'm not much into second chances when it comes to what I perceive as serious infractions. Perhaps why I've never cheated on my wife of 33 years. As the saying goes, the Bank of Fidelity frowns on that sort of behaviour. Your account quickly gets cancelled. And I add it works both ways.
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post #378 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:30 PM
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Well Penn, what happened in Colorado didn't stay in Colorado. It was a cancer that spread through the lymph nodes throughout the entire world. Man, you and I got to talk!

Agreed Chu, and likely impacted other ID companies in many ways. I'm still amazed that people are still saying that 321VA sold great products at amazing prices....

My response back is that people got such an amazing deal b/c it appears he had been swindling his suppliers and customers for quite some time. The operating budget is considerably lower when people like MLS do not pay their overseas partners for services rendered/goods produced. In such circumstances, it's pretty difficult for legitimate companies to compete with the likes of 321VA.
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post #379 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:41 PM
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If the following happens what would you do?

1. A few of the people he allegedly burned come forward and say they forgive him. Would you?

....

Just because they are saps doesn't necessarily mean I also have to be one.
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If the following happens what would you do?

2. He does his time as mandated by the court, comes out and admits he was wrong. Do you give him a second chance? ....

He would have to earn that second chance... anything else would also make me a sap

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If the following happens what would you do?

3. If he does his time, gets out and produces a set of speakers that everyone raves about at a price point that makes them an incredible value...would you consider buying them?....

I think you already know the answer here... I'm no sap. Fool me once shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me.

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post #380 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:47 PM
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If he left such a sordid trail why did people keep giving him money? You want to talk about Madoff and his poor "victim" investors? You tell me how an intelligent person who could possibly have missed that Madoff was delivering returns that were above what the rest of the market was delivering month after month without a suspicion forming in their mind. Those people should've and probably did notice that they were getting an ROI that nobody on Wall Street was getting but any questions regarding that were subsumed by what? And now they're "victims". They had no part to play because Madoff the all powerful liar took them, right? When did we become a culture of victims. When did we stop being accountable for our decisions?

Greed is the root of all evil.

Name one person who would turn down a Mercedes for the price of a pinto.

The two statements above are why people kept on giving
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post #381 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:48 PM
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Who says that the products are even his to sell? Did he use other people's money to build them? It is like owning stolen property, very cheap.

I am not saying this is fact, just thinking as I type. I bought an Emotiva DMC-1 from them when Emotiva was part of AV123. I returned it though as I never liked it much.
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post #382 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:50 PM
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Greed is the root of all evil.

Name one person who would turn down a Mercedes for the price of a pinto.

The two statements above are why people kept on giving

Good post, isn't greed a deadly sin of the 9 levels of hell. OK, we won't go there.
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post #383 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

If he left such a sordid trail why did people keep giving him money? You want to talk about Madoff and his poor "victim" investors? You tell me how an intelligent person who could possibly have missed that Madoff was delivering returns that were above what the rest of the market was delivering month after month without a suspicion forming in their mind. Those people should've and probably did notice that they were getting an ROI that nobody on Wall Street was getting but any questions regarding that were subsumed by what? And now they're "victims". They had no part to play because Madoff the all powerful liar took them, right? When did we become a culture of victims. When did we stop being accountable for our decisions?

Some confidence men use greed as their bait and some leverage it by appealing to one's ego... some will use guilt (and may reference the victim's own children or parents)... some will target a victim's human frailties such as sympathy/empathy and even generosity and the kindness of the human spirit... all in an effort through trust to gain your confidence. It's a much easier 'sell' to blame the victim in the case of greed and ego but a much harder sell is to blame a victim for having a kind heart. Mark used all of the above and seemed to have no qualms about regarding kindness and generosity as a weakness to be exploited... in this respect he is actually more evil and a less sympathetic character than a Bernie Madoff. I will bleed my sympathies for all his victims before I will ever take into consideration the human frailties that might have driven Mark to rip off his victims.

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post #384 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

If the following happens what would you do?

1. A few of the people he allegedly burned come forward and say they forgive him. Would you?

2. He does his time as mandated by the court, comes out and admits he was wrong. Do you give him a second chance?

3. If he does his time, gets out and produces a set of speakers that everyone raves about at a price point that makes them an incredible value...would you consider buying them?

If your answer is yes to any of the above then I agrue he is not evil. There is no forgiving people who are truly evil and they should never get a second chance in my opinion, and finally, about the speakers....

If society and the american penal system can give a murderer and or rapist a second chance, then I believe the answer to all three would be yes, no?

If a man wrongfully convicted who loses x years of his life, and he can forgive those who put him there to begin with, then the answer to the questions above would be yes, no?

I think where the confusion stems from is the fine line between an evil person and a person whom intentions are evil. While some may argue that they are one in the same, there are differences.
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post #385 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 02:07 PM
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If society and the american penal system can give a murderer and or rapist a second chance, then I believe the answer to all three would be yes, no?.

A rapist should be put to death, at once.

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...I think where the confusion stems from is the fine line between an evil person and a person whom intentions are evil. While some may argue that they are one in the same, there are differences.

Don't see it that way. If a person does something with evil intentions that person is evil. You are what you do. What else is there to judge by? Nothing. We are what we do.
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post #386 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by monomer View Post

Some confidence men use greed as their bait and some leverage it by appealing to one's ego... some will use guilt (and may reference the victim's own children or parents)... some will use human frailties such as sympathy/empathy and even generosity and the kindness of the human spirit... all in an effort through trust to gain your confidence. It's a much easier 'sell' to blame the victim in the case of greed and ego but a much harder sell is to blame a victim for having a kind heart. Mark used all of the above and seemed to have no qualms about regarding kindness and generosity as a weakness to be exploited... in this respect he is actually more evil and a less sympathetic character than a Bernie Madoff. I will bleed my sympathies for all his victims before I will ever take into consideration the human frailties that drove Mark to rip off his victims.

That's a good point..."having a kind heart". I hadn't considered them...the kind heart people. They are certainly out there.

This is great folks. Wow. Some wonderful, thought provoking ideas, and arguments, are being bandied about. I'm really enjoying reading this and proud to be associated with you.
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post #387 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 02:14 PM
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A rapist should be put to death, at once.

Maybe not:

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...ors&id=7164293

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post #388 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 02:35 PM
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Well,,,,,,,,I guess I'm one of the ones that believed he was an honorable man, I have been a supporter & defender since the 'Swan Diva greatest speaker for the money days'.

I feel betrayed and quite honestly angry at myself for recommending his products for all these years, now I'm answering questions to my friends about what is going on and how do I get warranty repairs in the future,,,Yada Yada Yada.

HH
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post #389 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 02:45 PM
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I can't believe that some of you are actually defending him, that is pretty pathetic.
Talk about cult figures, geeeeeeeeeeeeeez...........
Koresh had nothing on Shifty.

"Mental Illness" Is that the new card ....gimme a break with that garbage, the guy was a Schiester, Shifty the Schiester.... bilk ya outta ya rent for speakers and stuff that you'll never get, all the while taking 1st class flights all around the world on YOUR hard earned coin!!

Bah

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post #390 of 1523 Old 03-03-2010, 02:51 PM
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You make a good point, I don't think theft should be frowned upon until we get up into at least the half-a-million $$ ballpark.

Boy, are you low!

Now, we're at a half million, Todd. We're not finished though.




I'm going to resort to a Tommy Boy reference here.

"Hey chief, could you tell me how far it is to Davenport?
I can't find it on this map."

"Well, get yourself a new map."

"Well, it's gotta be on the map, Davenport, because you say it's x miles away.
And you're really smart...
Yet it's not on the map."

"I'm picking up your sarcasm."

"I'd hope so 'cause I'm laying it on you pretty thick."

Chu, I'll let you decide why I refer to this particular exchange in the movie.
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