Longmont Man Indicted On Suspicion of Charity Fraud - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 07:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by NicolasKL View Post

Lol, I'm surprised you can type that with a straight face. Yes, you allowed free exchange of information and posts, except when you were deleting threads, posts, banning people, and not allowing certain people to post in certain threads (which is something you're doing right now, isn't it?).

While I realize that attempting to be reasonable with you is likely to never work, I will try.

All forums have rules - the most basic of which is to keep threads on track. I have told you on several occasions that you are welcome to post on TCA under either of yout two profiles there. All you need to do is respect the thread in which you were involved, and keep to the topic of that thread.

AVS has done moderation in the AV123 threads within the last 24 hours, including telling people in the MFW-15 thread in the subwoofer section that discussing the man is not permitted there, and that it is to be done in this thread.

I have done the same thing at TCA.

If you want to open a thread explaining what YOUR personal experiences have been with AV123, that is fine. If one wants to barge into a thread which is dedicated to those forum members who sent money into AV123 with the expectation that it get sent to the charity when one, in fact, never did send in any money, then you are not welcome in that particular thread.

As I have stated those people are welcome to open a thread stating that, while he/she never sent any money into these raffles, he/she wants to complain about AV123.

This is not censorship, this is allowing both sides to opine without interference from others.
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post #92 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 07:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by NicolasKL View Post

What? David Fabrikant and Derek Wayland's statements constitute zero evidence?

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Originally Posted by NicolasKL View Post

It's pretty hard for me to feel bad for the ones that continued to defend him tooth and nail long after some of the facts came to light regarding the first "underfunded" raffles. I not only don't feel bad for them, I think they're swine.

Evidence would be actual comments made by people who defended the actions regarding the "underfunded" raffles to the point where you think you are justified in calling these people "swine".

Citing Mr. Fabrikant and Derek has nothing to do with calling people "swine".
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post #93 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post

This is an interesting point. You clearly had your radar up (as I did mine). I never understood why charitable donations needed a conduit, and apparently neither did you. If you will recall when the first raffles started I expressed my unease with them. Working in the business (fundraising) the whole thing struck me as fishy: a private individual/company running private raffles on behalf of charities. It just did not jive with the way I fund raise or the way I've seen raffles conducted. I knew there were laws governing the conducting of raffles and the way they were conducted at AV 123 did not seem to meet any usual standards. I expressed my point of view a couple of times on AV 123 and made the point that it would be better to give altruistically rather than via incentive (sending the money directly to the charity) and of course was met with hostility. Had Mark made it aware that only a portion of the funds would be used for charity, I think questions would have been raised immediately and they would have met a quick and non-felonious death.

I also never contributed to the raffles because the arrangement didn't sit well with me. I had no facts to support that unease, but it seemed just a bit weird. In the TCA thread that Craig re-opened, Craig made the following post last night:
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub at TCA View Post

One area in which I was always in disagreement with Mark was in the prizes themselves. I always thought that taking a portion of the proceeds to reimburse the company was not appropriate.

Rather than post in that thread and get the post deleted (since I didn't contribute to any raffles), I'll make a comment here. In all of the previous discussion, I never heard anything that indicated that Mark or AV123 was charging for the prizes. There was some discussion of the possibility regarding the Sloan Kettering raffle long after the raffles had been stolen from, but it was always just theorizing and never supported by input from Mark or AV123. If that was the official policy, it was never noted in the raffle announcements or acknowledged in any other way I saw. The first sign of such a policy - at least in all the reading I've done on the situation - was Craig's post last night, indicating to me that Mark had told Craig they were charging for the prizes. If people had asked Mark about it at the time and Mark had described such a policy (a combination of events that I have some real doubts about, especially considering Mark's track record of honestry regarding the raffles), would it have helped?

Sort of irrelevent now, though - the impact of raffle prize policy is wiped away by the larger problem...

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Originally Posted by tonygeno View Post

I've never understood the term "underfunded". If the company or Mark couldn't afford to fulfill the product he should have made the participants aware immediately, offered a refund to those who wanted it and given the rest to the charity. These raffles were clearly a way to "fund" other projects/pay other expenses. The raffle participants became in essence "investors" in AV 123. If he were looking for investors, with his good will, he might have actually been able to entice some his supporters to do just that.

The term "underfunded" has rankled me from the get-go. The raffle money should have been isolated from other accounts and delivered in a timely fashion. It should never have been diverted for other uses. Once some previous raffles had been stolen from, later raffles should have never been run, should have been used to pay off earlier raffles before also being paid in full, or should have been run properly (isolation of funds).

The scale of the raffle theft described in the indictment is greater even than some of my most pessimistic guesses. The numbers listed there represent theft of more than 83% of the contributions. That's just crazy. I'm still stunned that Mark ever thought it was a good idea, and even moreso that he did it on such a large scale.

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post #94 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 08:04 AM
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Andy, The man referred to people as "swine". He did so with precisely ZERO evidence.

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Andy ... You are nothing short of either a liar or woefully ignorant. I am not sure which.

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In fact, in this thread, I defended victims who were called swine.

My god, Chase/craigsub, you are exactly like Mark Schifter, in that you continually try to twist the truth, are constantly trying to misrepresent others positions, and are constantly trying to attack other members and try to discredit them instead of answering their arguments. But while Mark Schifter was an amazing scammer, he was an extremely poor argumentator, and so are you... (a poor argumentator that is)

Here's what was said, in context:

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Originally Posted by NicolasKL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by KyaDawn View Post

It's hard not to feel bad for those AV123 customers that actually felt the Mark was a "friend" that they knew online, talked on the phone with, and even had dinner with.

It's pretty hard for me to feel bad for the ones that continued to defend him tooth and nail long after some of the facts came to light regarding the first "underfunded" raffles. I not only don't feel bad for them, I think they're swine.

He did not call av321.gone customers swine, he called those who continued to defend him tooth and nail long after some of the facts came to light regarding the first "underfunded" raffles. That is, those who were aware that Schifter was scamming people, yet continued to defend him tooth and nail long. Do you see the distinction here? Because it's a big one, you trying to twist things around to make it sound like Nikolas said something he didn't is called a strawman argument, something extremely popular with your business partner Schifter... Or should I say ex-business partner? Have you cut off the ties since his indictment, or maybe before, when it became common knowledge that he stole charity money?

Anyhow, I can clearly understand how this could reflect very negatively on you given your close relation with the man, but you know, your attitude here really isn't helping you out. Flat out lies and the such really do not help your image. I think it's fairly safe to say that you each considered each other friends, you were supposed to open Rocket Canada, you were business partners at one point, if you're not today, you always went so much out of your way to help Schifter and av321.gone, by hosting official av321.gone GTGs at your place, cooking up products with Schifter, having some of your products advertised and part of av321.gone sales, or even as I recall, you even sent your own personal MFW sub to a av321.gone customer who was making some noise about how his defective sub wasn't getting repaired, you have been constantly supporting them on these forums for years, not surprising given all of the above...

Anyhow, I'm not going to go into details, but seriously, twisting of the truth right now is not helping you out here... Just friendly advice to you... Now might be a good time to make serious changes in this regard...
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post #95 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 08:04 AM
 
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Gonk - I am doing this from memory, so forgive me if I got this wrong. I think some of the raffles had posted that the prizes were going to be totally donated by AV123.

And I think in others, it was mentioned that there would be some of the proceeds taken out to cover the expense of the product.

I did, however, have a conversation with MLS several years ago in which he was thinking that taking a portion of the moneys raised was acceptable, and I disagreed for a variety of reasons.

It is even possible that MLS ended up taking the position in all auctions that the equipment would be donated.

At this point, it probably isn't even all that important - it's a detail against a much larger issue.
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post #96 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 08:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

My god, Chase/craigsub, you are exactly like Mark Schifter, in that you continually try to twist the truth, are constantly trying to misrepresent others positions, and are constantly trying to attack other members and try to discredit them instead of answering their arguments. But while Mark Schifter was an amazing scammer, he was an extremely poor argumentator, and so are you... (a poor argumentator that is)

Here's what was said, in context:



He did not call av321.gone customers swine, he called those who continued to defend him tooth and nail long after some of the facts came to light regarding the first "underfunded" raffles. That is, those who were aware that Schifter has scammed people, yet [i]continued to defend him tooth and nail long. Do you see the distinction here? Because it's a big one, you trying to twist things around to make it sound like Nikolas said something he didn't it called a strawman argument, something extremely popular with your business partner Schifter... Or should I say ex-business partner? Have you cut off the ties since his indictment, or maybe before, when it became common knowledge that he stole charity money?

Anyhow, I can clearly understand how this could reflect very negatively on you given your close relation with the man, but you know, your attitude here really isn't helping you out. Flat out lies and the such really do not help your image. I think it's fairly safe to say that you each considered each other friends, you were supposed to open Rocket Canada, you were business partners at one point, if you're not today, you always went so much out of your way to help Schifter and av321.gone, by hosting official av321.gone GTGs at your place, cooking up products with Schifter, having some of your products advertised and part of av321.gone sales, or even as I recall, you even sent your own personal MFW sub to a av321.gone customer who was making some noise about how his defective sub wasn't getting repaired, you have been constantly supporting them on these forums for years, not surprising given all of the above...

Anyhow, I'm not going to go into details, but seriously, twisting of the truth right now is not helping you out here... Just friendly advice to you...

Grandarf ... Evidence would be pointing out exactly who these people were that defended AV123 to the point where applying the term "swine" to these people has merit. This has not happened.

To the rest of your post, it is a series of lies. Mark and I have never been business partners. Chu Gai in his detective mode has even confirmed this.

Even the so called "official AV123 GTG" at our home was open to any and all companies that wished to attend.

In fact, the following companies had products at the GTG:

Ascend, Dana, Swan, SVS, Hsu, Elemental Designs, B&W, AV123, NHT, etc ...

And those who attended saw it was anything but an official GTG for any one company. It was a group of audiophiles meeting and having a great time.

It was friendly, and without agenda. This is, of course, something you will NEVER understand, because you don't wish to.
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post #97 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

At this point, it probably isn't even all that important - it's a detail against a much larger issue.

Too true, sadly.

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post #98 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

I did, however, have a conversation with MLS several years ago in which he was thinking that taking a portion of the moneys raised was acceptable, and I disagreed for a variety of reasons.

As I recall you were an active participant (cheerleader) in many of the Raffles and again from memory even co-sponsored one or two of them. Your insider knowledge as to MLS's intended use of the funds gave you an advantage over those of us who were just assuming that this was a philanthropic endeavor by MLS.

Have the investigators contacted you?

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post #99 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 08:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

As I recall you were an active participant (cheerleader) in many of the Raffles and again from memory even co-sponsored one or two of them. Your insider knowledge as to MLS's intended use of the funds gave you an advantage over those of us who were just assuming that this was a philanthropic endeavor by MLS.

Have the investigators contacted you?

I sponsored one, which was intended to raise $1000 for the UCLA breast cancer research. This was in October, 2006. The fundraiser ended on October 27, 2006 and I had the receipt returned to me by UCLA on November 15, 2006. It was 19 days from the end of the raffle until UCLA had not only received the money, but they had sent back the receipt.

In this raffle, I had personally purchased the speakers which were used, and over 100% of the moneys raised were forwarded.

The other I sponsored was not even a raffle - I offered to directly match up to $5000 in Tsunami research moneys. This thread had people donate directly to The Red Cross (or other agencies).

As for a cheerleader ... drop either Dwayland or Hugh a line, and ask them what my typical role has been in these threads in the past.
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post #100 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Andy, The man referred to people as "swine". He did so with precisely ZERO evidence.

Now ... to your assertion that I was part of the problem ... You are flat out ignorant of any and all facts.

But, why don't you explain using facts how I was part of the problem ?

This should be good.



Craig, While I won't engage in the conversation I would point out that it's pretty easy for people to feel that you were involved in the whole rah rah av321. You in fact, led the lynch mob and helped rally the troops a couple of years ago when I called mls a liar and thief on his forum. I don't hold it against you, you were defending a friend, but you were involved pretty heavily at the time.

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post #101 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 09:17 AM
 
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Craig, While I won't engage in the conversation I would point out that it's pretty easy for people to feel that you were involved in the whole rah rah av321. You in fact, led the lynch mob and helped rally the troops a couple of years ago when I called mls a liar and thief on his forum. I don't hold it against you, you were defending a friend, but you were involved pretty heavily at the time.

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Mark, you have PM.
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post #102 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 09:17 AM
 
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The unraveling of AV123 is really a microcosm of the nationwide collapse that we've all been dealing with these last few years. In any such scenario there will be those individuals who were playing fast and loose and got caught when the house of cards came crashing down. MLS is, unfortunately, no different than the other investment and real estate characters whose unethical and illegal way of doing business became apparent once the money dried up. I don't mean to pre-judge the man, but if the indictments are borne out in trial then he will deserve whatever punishment the court decides is appropriate. I have no ax to grind, I'm a former customer and supporter of AV123. The only way to deal with this is for former friends and business associates to publicly distance themselves from MLS, as he is now toxic. Any support from old time friends would need to be kept private, there is no way that you can sugar coat what has been alleged. Let the system do it's job, and the chips fall. I'm sorry to see this happen, but if he is guilty, then I really have no sympathy.
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post #103 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 10:03 AM
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I just read about all this and I have to say I am sick to my stomach. I have been a supporter of this company and MLS and since I was never involved in any of the charities and never contributed to them I never really paid any attention to the screaming going on about it. Honestly it just seemed like people were being vengeful and trying to hurt him personally...I never really put any stock in the rantings....I guess I should have paid closer attention....we all should have.

I love my rockets and my MFW's and I now feel like a complete fool for being supportive publicly. I really wish I had known the truth long ago so I wouldn't feel so foolish now...but I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling like an dupe at this moment.

All I can say is I hope the truth comes out and I honestly hope the accusations are false, but it sure seems like it's true. I'm 100% sure he would not have been charged if there wasn't sufficient evidence to do so.

I feel sick.
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post #104 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Grandarf ... Evidence would be pointing out exactly who these people were that defended AV123 to the point where applying the term "swine" to these people has merit. This has not happened.

Aren't you the same guy who said that we should withhold our judgment of MLS because there wasn't evidence that there was charity thefts? Are you saying no one ever defended Schifter even after the charity frauds were exposed? Your evidence demands are ridiculous. Many DID defend him. Read here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...801958&page=48 just one out of many such threads containing it, read the av321.gone forums... It's everywhere... My gosh do you know how ridiculous you sound demanding evidence?! Why didn't you demand evidence from Schifter about charity donations?

Here are some of your own damning words, and probably why you took issue with the swine comment, as you most probably felt it was relevant to you...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post17815150 December 2009:
Quote:


Mark Schifter is still a friend. I am not "distancing myself from him". I know what his issues are and think that he has much to make up with a lot of people.

However, I don't distance myself from friends just because that friend is in trouble. I truly hope Mark can weather this storm, and that he comes out with everybody made whole at the end of the day. I have talked to Mark about these issues, and offered some advice.

Mark has a lot of work in front of him, and I wish him nothing but the best in getting through this.

Quote:


Instead of defending AV1-23 gear, we have people (the "non owners) who have a vested interest in AV1-23 competitors (or just some odd vendatta against the company) ripping into AV1-23. And you think this is good ?

which was replied: "You think speaking out about the raffles situation is an odd vendetta? Oh wait, that's right, your a "friend" of the guy that "underfunded" the raffles. Vested interest?"
Quote:



I said that we have people with an odd vendetta speaking out against AV-1-23. This is happening with great regularity.

I have also said, repeatedly, that MLS has many issues to clear up. As I made sure to send all my contributions directly to each and every charity or worthy individual from 2004 until the last one at AV-1-23, and these moneys were well into 5 digits, one might conclude I have earned a certain amount of credibility in this matter.

But for anyone to suggest that owners of AV-1-23 products are LESS qualified than non owners to comment on their products is pretty silly.

And, Curtis, look at Droht's post again. There WAS no mention of raffles.

Once again, the truth, Curtis. It is helpful.

Again, everything is about attitude. Notice how you downplay the charity fraud as "issues to clear up" It's all about those who have a vendetta vs this nice guy Schifter & craigsub... "I hope he weathers this storm" "They are biased, they have an axe to grind..." Hey, he's ok, he just has a few issues to clear up! Buy away! He's a great guy and these are great products!

You always had that paranoia that some people were out to get you and your good friend Schifter... Well how do you feel now that he's being indicted for fraud? Does this make you reflect on your past actions? It sure should... Or do you see this as the result of all those evil people who have hurt your good friend Schifter and in the process yourself?

Were you aware that the raffles were scams? I don't think so, but I didn't believe that the av321.gone raffles were scams either. I just thought that he did it for the PR and the tax credits. As you would say, I do not have evidence, either way, to know whether you were aware or unaware of this charity fraud... One thing is sure, you've always had issue with anyone not hyping him and his products. Those with a vendetta... Axe to grind... Haters... You realize you were a part of the problem right? (although not to the extent of actively scamming people with Schifter, but that your actions probably influenced others in the wrong direction...)

I also remember many had issues when I said the raffles were for PR and tax deduction, and said he might not be doing it because of his generosity and the kindness of his heart. Not sure if you were one of them though, doesn't really matter anyhow. I did ask you on a couple of occasions to contact Schifter and talk to him about it, since he was your friend, you were much closer to him that pretty much anyone here. Did you do it? Probably not, you preferred to downplay the 'issue' and continue to hype av321.gone products. Hey, it was just the av321.gone haters doing their thing right?

Quote:


To the rest of your post, it is a series of lies. Mark and I have never been business partners. Chu Gai in his detective mode has even confirmed this.

Even the so called "official AV123 GTG" at our home was open to any and all companies that wished to attend.

In fact, the following companies had products at the GTG:

Ascend, Dana, Swan, SVS, Hsu, Elemental Designs, B&W, AV123, NHT, etc ...

And those who attended saw it was anything but an official GTG for any one company. It was a group of audiophiles meeting and having a great time.

It was friendly, and without agenda. This is, of course, something you will NEVER understand, because you don't wish to.

I remember clearly you stating it was an official av321.gone event because of your previous screwup with your switcher and reluctance of a manufacturer's products to be involved in your shootouts. But I can't find it... Anyhow, your friend Schifter attended I believe... But anyhow, not that important besides the point that you claim that my post was a series of lies, yet you tried to disprove them all by disproving only one.

Besides, what would be my lies?

1) You claimed Nikolas called all av321.gone customers swine and I demonstrated he did not. Not a lie.
2) "you are exactly like Mark Schifter, in that you continually try to twist the truth, are constantly trying to misrepresent others positions, and are constantly trying to attack other members and try to discredit them instead of answering their arguments.". Again, not a lie, see #1 and my earlier quotes for proof.
3) "You are a poor argumentator". Again, see #2 and #3.
4) "ex-business partner? Have you cut off the ties since his indictment, or maybe before, when it became common knowledge that he stole charity money?" Here I'm inquiring whether you still have any business with them. I'm not saying that you have. Though you might well still be. For sure you've had business relations with Schifter and av321.gone. That fact has been well established.
5) "I think it's fairly safe to say that you each considered each other friends". Again, very common knowledge
6) "you were supposed to open Rocket Canada". Again, common knowledge.
7) "you always went so much out of your way to help Schifter and av321.gone". Again, hardly lies, do you deny this? Always very supportive of them? Ex: Referring to charity frauds as "issues to work out", handing out your own MFW to a disgruntled av321.gone customer, etc.?
8) "cooking up products with Schifter". Again, per Schifter's own words, which I did not see you complain in the least at the time... Sold your own amp, and I believe X electronics or whatever. Why don't you clarify here the extent of your relation with Schifter? Which you never seemed interested to do, even when you guys had a great relation together, if you still don't have a great relation with him today...
9) "your products advertised and part of av321.gone sales". Again, do you deny that?

So exactly, which are "my lies"? Fact is, you've, for the longest of times, did product comparisons, while never really disclosing that under the table you tried to make business with this Schifter and av321.gone, opening Rocket Canada, starting up your own lines of products with him or I don't know what else. You've always been ultra supportive of Schifter an av321.com, even in the light of the charity fraud... Anyhow, this somewhat blows up in your face... Really not the best of thing to be associate with Schifter these days... Like I said, I don't really want to go into this in depth (which you sorta made me do with your accusation of lying), but I guess it's a little to late now...
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post #105 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 10:43 AM
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Craig donated to the raffles for causes like DW, Hugh's friend and others in a unique way. All told, over 700 people had donated according to the indictment. Some did it quietly and never posted about it. Others made public comments. The only, and I mean ONLY person who publicly said they donated and knew what the truth was with respect to where the money was going (and not going) was MLS himself.

Sure Craig posted in the raffle threads but that does not make him an enabler of the frauds that were perpetrated any more than it does anyone else who was caught up in the moment. They were good causes. They touched many hearts. The devastation of Hurrican Katrina played out for months and still does. No one thought that thefts of this magnitude were going on. While some may've felt an unease about this, and maybe Craig did too (so did Tony Geno, gonk, and others), an unease does not equate to suspecting that a pocketing of funds such as we see here was occurring. Whether you consider Craig your closest friend or your enemy, do not equate any personal relationship he had with MLS as being privy to knowing these sort of shenanigans were going on when they were. Do not. It's wrong and is not supported by any fact or even something remotely looking like a fact.

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post #106 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 10:51 AM
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Chu Gai.... i hate to say it but looks like you have been right all along.... i wish it weren't so, but sure seems that way now. kinda wish i had paid more attention.
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post #107 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

The unraveling of AV123 is really a microcosm of the nationwide collapse that we've all been dealing with these last few years. In any such scenario there will be those individuals who were playing fast and loose and got caught when the house of cards came crashing down. MLS is, unfortunately, no different than the other investment and real estate characters whose unethical and illegal way of doing business became apparent once the money dried up. I don't mean to pre-judge the man, but if the indictments are borne out in trial then he will deserve whatever punishment the court decides is appropriate. I have no ax to grind, I'm a former customer and supporter of AV123. The only way to deal with this is for former friends and business associates to publicly distance themselves from MLS, as he is now toxic. Any support from old time friends would need to be kept private, there is no way that you can sugar coat what has been alleged. Let the system do it's job, and the chips fall. I'm sorry to see this happen, but if he is guilty, then I really have no sympathy.

Please, don't try to be an apologist for the man. What he did was scam people, it had nothing to do with the economy, millions of others are part of the same economy and didn't turn to betraying and scamming people. Don't try to make excuses for the man, you can be sure he'll make up his own later on. Somewhat ironic that you talk about support and distancing, but sort of blame it on the economy lol

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I'm sorry to see this happen

What are you sorry about exactly? Because given the tone of your post, you sound a little like you're sorry that he's being brought to justice. You should be sorry that he scammed all those people, but rejoice in the fact that he's now being prosecuted for it.

And it's sad that even while it was going on, there was so many apologists defending him and spreading doubt about it... Refusing to face reality and see this man for what he is...


Pure-Evil: It's really not like you were not warned... You really chose to believe this way... I honestly find it surprising that anyone can be like: "oh this is surprising"... But anyhow... Live and learn You're not even out of anything, well maybe warranty but that remains to be seen, some might lose thousands of dollars for prepaid products and such... Plus you never donated either...

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Honestly it just seemed like people were being vengeful and trying to hurt him personally...I never really put any stock in the rantings....I guess I should have paid closer attention....we all should have.

Too bad that thanks to some individuals this was possible...

The sad thing is that instead of apologizing, some of these exact people who helped instill this doubt still continue today this exact same behavior. Calling other liars, ignorant, and I don't know what else...

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Chu Gai.... i hate to say it but looks like you have been right all along.... i wish it weren't so, but sure seems that way now. kinda wish i had paid more attention.

Takes a man to admit it was wrong. The worst is that, many would just then repeat the "oh no he's a great guy and these are just haters, shhh haters!!" and help fool others... Gotta love internet forums...
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post #108 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 11:08 AM
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This drama is just too much and sort of pointless...

Things will really get interesting when the company decides it needs to acknowledge all of this and when Mark is able to make a statement.

I can smell it already.
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post #109 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

And it's sad that even while it was going on, there was so many apologists defending him and spreading doubt about it... Refusing to face reality and see this man for what he is...

As a quiet observer of much of the heated bickering regarding the truth behind the raffles that has been going on for quite some time, I would think that there are a lot of people out there who now owe public forum apologies to others.
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post #110 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 11:16 AM
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Craig, unfortunately you are pretty much in a no-win situation here and probably would have been better off not to have posted on the topic.

While some people would call you an MLS defender, I would instead say that you have pretty consistently been an MLS supporter. I myself see nothing wrong with this. You were friends with the man, you had a level of faith in him and probably got duped to a certain degree just like many others.

From everything I have seen I would have to say that you are a good and decent person. What you have done in regards to past raffles/donations, along with other activities for people in need, is inspiring.

From my vantage one of your drawbacks (and we all certainly have them) is that you get very argumentative and let yourself get drawn into arguments too easily.

So while it certainly can be difficult to do, my humble suggestion would be to just walk away from this thread. I really do not see where you have anything to gain by continuing.

For the record, I've never met Craig, but we have had at least one lightly heated PM discussion, maybe not surprisingly revolving around MLS/AV123.

Personally I have my beliefs on what will transpire, but ultimately I will wait for the process to play itself out before making a final judgment on both MLS and AV123.
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post #111 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 11:28 AM
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For the record, I've never Craig

You've never Craig? Craig'd you mean? Is that even a word? I knew of craigitism, but am unfamiliar with the verb 'craig'...

Btw, seriously, I agree with the sentiment of this post and of Chu's. Craig is many things, but I hope he's never one to steal charity money like that despicable Schifter... It sucks for him to have had chosen such bad friend... I do also think, though I have absolutely no proof, that he was unaware that Schifter was purposely scamming people, and I'm not trying to insinuate that he did in the least. Although I did question his behavior after he learned of the charity fraud, by no way am I trying to say that he deserves equal blame in this as Schifter... Really not the case... It is my belief, although I have no evidence of this, that craigsub was first unaware of these charity frauds... Although, like I said, once the charity fraud became common knowledge... Anyhow, Craig has many issues, as do many here, maybe even myself included, but I don't think he's a charity money thief... But before anybody asks, do I have evidence of this? No I do not... I do not have any evidence to support this claim...
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post #112 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 11:50 AM
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Whether you consider Craig your closest friend or your enemy, do not equate any personal relationship he had with MLS as being privy to knowing these sort of shenanigans were going on when they were. Do not. It's wrong and is not supported by any fact or even something remotely looking like a fact.

Did you read the quote in post 101? He seems by his own admission to have been privy to at least some intent by MLS to withhold funds and yet, he continued to be an enthusiastic participant in and supporter of the Raffles.

This is not a condemnation of anyone but it seems kind of odd to me.

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post #113 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 11:59 AM
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I think a lot of people where just taken in by Mark. Mark seems to have had a lot of charisma and he seems to have done a lot of good things to and for people. At this point, realizing that they were had it takes some humility to admit that mistake. Some, like Quad, have the needed humility to admit this. It is to their credit. And no apology is needed. Others, who suffer from an excess of pride, obfuscate.
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Originally Posted by ApolloCreed View Post

As a quiet observer of much of the heated bickering regarding the truth behind the raffles that has been going on for quite some time, I would think that there are a lot of people out there who now owe public forum apologies to others.

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post #114 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by craigsub at TCA
"One area in which I was always in disagreement with Mark was in the prizes themselves. I always thought that taking a portion of the proceeds to reimburse the company was not appropriate".

I find this comment interesting in that CC uses the word prize(s) indicating there was more than one conversation than he alluded to in Post #95.
I look at CC's role as Schifter's Consigliore. Hard to nail anything down, but I'm sure he'll distance himself if need be from the toxic MLS if push comes to shove.
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post #115 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Chu Gai.... i hate to say it but looks like you have been right all along.... i wish it weren't so, but sure seems that way now. kinda wish i had paid more attention.

Don't worry about it. There was a lot of stuff I knew but I could never name names or sources. Very few were confided in. It wasn't always 100% but eventually it reached a level of confidence in my book. The fallout from the raffle thing is that other very disturbing matters came to my attention. Some of those are being handled in Civil court. Some are pending. In some cases, people are going to find they were too late and ought to have gone to small claims and used Southwest Air for cheap ways to get there. Some didn't want my assistance or recommendations and believed whole heartedly they'd get what's owed them given a little more time. This is a cluster-phuck of unimagineable proportions. I hope it makes all of us a lot more cautious about stuff and better able to read between the lines.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #116 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Did you read the quote in post 101? He seems by his own admission to have been privy to at least some intent by MLS to withhold funds and yet, he continued to be an enthusiastic participant in and supporter of the Raffles.

This is not a condemnation of anyone but it seems kind of odd to me.

Timelines are important here but I'll say that providing a prize that's paid for with the raffle proceeds is not unusual. 'Course, I'd expect that this ought to have been an up front matter for all to know. For example if I go to the supermarket, there'll often be the Kiwanis or some other group selling raffle tickets that are 50/50's with a minium amount that needs to be sold. Half goes to the recipient, half goes to pay for the prize. I still haven't won a Harley or a sleep over with Eva Angelina but I'm hopeful.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #117 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by stevo238 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub at TCA
"One area in which I was always in disagreement with Mark was in the prizes themselves. I always thought that taking a portion of the proceeds to reimburse the company was not appropriate".

I find this comment interesting in that CC uses the word prize(s) indicating there was more than one conversation than he alluded to in Post #95.
I look at CC's role as Schifter's Consigliore. Hard to nail anything down, but I'm sure he'll distance himself if need be from the toxic MLS if push comes to shove.

Your conclusion (more than one conversation) may be right but your logic in getting there is flawed. Prizes could simply be multiple prizes in one raffle (i.e. first, second, third place.) Or Craig could have been talking in generalities about his belief, very few people will express an ongoing belief in terms of a singularity. I could be wrong if there was just one raffle and just one prize BUT if people are going to nitpick logic and context then I want it to be fair.
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post #118 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 01:21 PM
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Is this starting to become a witch hunt?
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post #119 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 01:27 PM
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Craig, unfortunately you are pretty much in a no-win situation here and probably would have been better off not to have posted on the topic.

While some people would call you an MLS defender, I would instead say that have pretty consistently been an MLS supporter. I myself see nothing wrong with this. You were friends with the man, you had a level of faith in him and probably got duped to a certain degree just like many others.

From everything I have seen I would have to say that you are a good and decent person. What you have done in regards to past raffles/donations, along with other activities for people in need, is inspiring.

From my vantage one of your drawbacks (and we all certainly have them) is that you get very argumentative and let yourself get drawn into arguments too easily.

So while it certainly can be difficult to do, my humble suggestion would be to just walk away from this thread. I really do not see where you have anything to gain by continuing.

This is pretty much my view also. I give Craig a lot of credit for his charitable spirit and his permitting multiple discussions on his TweakCity Forum with respect to AV123's and Schifter's misconduct. He has, at times, limited the discussion but, overall, he has permitted a more open and spirited discussion than any audio forum other than Audioholics. Given his friendship with Schifter, this could not been an easy thing to do.
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post #120 of 1527 Old 02-28-2010, 01:40 PM
 
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Grandarf - Rational people can read my words in their entirety, and can come to conclusions based on those words.

We have a legal system which places the burden of proof on the prosecution. We do not have a legal system in which accusations are proof of guilt. This entire situation about MLS will be settled in this very legal system. My words were consistent with our legal system.

You will never be rational, nor reasonable, when it comes to communication with me.

What is fascinating is I have never addressed you first on any topic at any time on AVS. Each and every time, you have started in on me. It's just weird having an on line stalker.

You are, without a doubt, the strangest and probably lonliest individual I have ever encountered in any forum at any time.
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