Ascend Sierras for HT on a 1100 budget...would you do it?? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 03:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

That is pretty general group/desription, because that also fits many PA speakers. Can you be more specific?

The cheap PA speakers that were listed earlier do not have much of a crossover. The boxes are not braced and made of plastic. The drivers used in them are cheap, low quality. Same goes for the compression driver. A white vann special has as much in common with some of the best audiophile speakers. Does that mean they are the same? Of course not. Same thing with the cheap PA speakers.
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post #92 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 03:13 PM
 
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Posted by Gandarf
"Nobody said anyone listened at 105dB at the listening position. But that was the magic number (100 dB) you threw around to show that the Sierras could not do HT. And as I illustrated the Sierras could reach it using two cheap 200$ amps."

So now you are suggesting the poster spend an additional $400 on top of the $1,300 that he spent. In that price range he could just about buy five of the Pro-10's.
You are the one now telling him to spend more. I have been telling him that he could spend less and get more.
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post #93 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 03:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

Laff! So do these: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...ku=582083#used

High power handling? Check! 800w peaks!!!
high sensitivity? Check!
directivity? Check! "Ultra-wide dispersion, large-format exponential horn"
pro woofer: Check! "Extremely powerful 12" long-excursion driver provides incredibly deep bass and acoustic power." Can't be more pro than that!
All of them use some type of waveguide or horn: Check! "Ultra-wide dispersion, large-format exponential horn"
All of them use a compression driver for the high frequencies. Check! "State-of-the-art 1.75" titanium-diaphragm compression driver for exceptional high-frequency reproduction"

My god it fits in the category! Only 170$ WOW! So no need to wait for the other 1000$ speaker to get the 3000$ performance! Just order one of those!!!


Riiiight... So there you have it folks, these speakers are inadequate for HT. So come on, how can anybody could be looking into <1000$ for 3 HT speakers? Don't be ridiculous!!! If you had 3x Wilson Maxx, Sophias with the Thor sub, 3 JMLabs Utopias, or 3 Spheres from Cabasse, this would make an inadequate high end HT. The amps would clip, it would compress during the peaks in ALL movies, absolutely inadequate... Just so we're clear... Ascend Sierras... LOL

Btw, did you really hear any of the above speakers? How could you say that they would be inadequate for HT... That's really silly. You are aware that HT stands for Home Theater are you not? We're not talking about the largest cinema in the world...

Two can play at this game. Here are some white vann specials. www.divincisound.com/tower2.htm They have that great audiophile speaker look. Now do they compare to good audiophile speakers any more than the speaker that you are using to put down the type of speakers that we have been suggesting?
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post #94 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

The cheap PA speakers that were listed earlier do not have much of a crossover. The boxes are not braced and made of plastic. The drivers used in them are cheap, low quality. Same goes for the compression driver. A white vann special has as much in common with some of the best audiophile speakers. Does that mean they are the same? Of course not. Same thing with the cheap PA speakers.

There are PA speakers that use similar woofers and drivers.

In any case, I didn't say they were the same. I asked for more specifics in comparison to JTR, Seaton, and JBL.

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post #95 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 03:27 PM
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I don't know how loud everyone listens to movies, but I threw a party for a bunch of 21-24 year olds and put together a playlist of rap music, cranked it with an Onkyo TX-SR674 receiver, and the Sierras sounded very good, even though the source material was 192kbps mp3. And I turned the receiver up to the 86-90 range (don't know how many decibels this was in people's ears, but it was uncomfortably loud in a large room (36'x16'x8').

You'll love the Sierras. They probably aren't the best $1100 LCR home theater speakers, but they still sound outstanding in a home theater setting and can still get to ear splitting volumes. And they will sound that much better when you crossover to your nice sub at 60 or 80 Hz
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post #96 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 03:29 PM
 
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Gandarf, this is a fool of a statement:
"You know what, when I listened to the above speakers, and recognized that some of them had great dynamics for example, I was just fooled by the price tag... Yeah, nothing to do with it, with just 300$ and DIY, you can beat those easily... All it takes is a little education and experience on the topic."

Come over to the DIY speaker thread and ask this sily question. There we have on occasion some very good speaker designers and some highly respected members of the audio world that will tell you yes it can be done easily. They may not look as good. That depends on your skill level, but they sure will perform better. In the DIY world people do not count their labor. Most people are not in DIY to save money (some are), most are there for the love of it and to get what they want. You will often times find that the speakers have better specs at their respective price points and some of the subs have performance that you have a hard time finding at any price point.
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post #97 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

I said earlier that they were very similar. Not arguing that point, but I think most audiophile experts rank the RBH 661-SE as a better speaker since RBH custom makes their own drivers. Where do the drivers come from in the 340-SE's?

You stated more than them being "very similar".
Not from RBH, but the tweeter is a custom unit (to Ascend) made by Seas. The woofer is also custom, but I do not know the manufacturer.

Can you point me to these "experts"?

I also think it is funny that you are talking about speakers from TCA and Ascend, that you have never heard before.

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post #98 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 03:45 PM
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Im very curious,

What size Subs are you guys matching with these tiny speakers? I suspect its a HUGE mismatch.

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post #99 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Im very curious,

What size Subs are you guys matching with these tiny speakers? I suspect its a HUGE mismatch.

I use a 10" sub with my small speakers.

Ron
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post #100 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Im very curious,

What size Subs are you guys matching with these tiny speakers? I suspect its a HUGE mismatch.

Tiny? In comparison to what? The custom Sierra woofer has a good amount of excursion. I've compared the Sierra with good/competent floorstanders, and they hold their own.

I use a Rythmik F15 sub, in a 2200-2300^3ft living room.

Penn, I'll ask you since mjg100 has not answer the question. What makes the Pro-10 like the JTR, Seatons, or Pro JBL?

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post #101 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:04 PM
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What size Subs are you guys matching with these tiny speakers? I suspect its a HUGE mismatch.

None. I run them full range and am quite happy with the results. I use a 12 inch sealed DIY sub with my 340SEs.

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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

I said earlier that they were very similar. Not arguing that point, but I think most audiophile experts rank the RBH 661-SE as a better speaker since RBH custom makes their own drivers. Where do the drivers come from in the 340-SE's?

What does it matter where they come from, what matters is their performance, and you can't quite tell that from "where they come from". Could be custom and be crap, could be home made and be crap, or could be from a big driver manufacturer and be crap, and vice versa.

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Posted by Gandarf
"Nobody said anyone listened at 105dB at the listening position. But that was the magic number (100 dB) you threw around to show that the Sierras could not do HT. And as I illustrated the Sierras could reach it using two cheap 200$ amps."

So now you are suggesting the poster spend an additional $400 on top of the $1,300 that he spent. In that price range he could just about buy five of the Pro-10's.
You are the one now telling him to spend more. I have been telling him that he could spend less and get more.

I was answering this "you tell me what amp power you need so you are not clipping and then tell me what compression those Sierras have at the peaks!". Had nothing to do with the OP, Penn wanted to know what kind of amplification you'd need to run X, not the OP, I don't want him to get anything, he'll most probably be fine with what he has.

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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Two can play at this game. Here are some white vann specials. www.divincisound.com/tower2.htm They have that great audiophile speaker look. Now do they compare to good audiophile speakers any more than the speaker that you are using to put down the type of speakers that we have been suggesting?

These have pretty much nothing to do with Ascend Sierras. Go to the ascend page and read a bit about them, then go read a couple of reviews or better yet hear a pair. If you had asked me what it takes to be in the league of Ascend sierras and I told you a box, drivers and a port, then you might have a point. The 100$ PA fit exactly with what made your 3000$ speakers great at HT. You mentioned nothing else.

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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Gandarf, this is a fool of a statement:
"You know what, when I listened to the above speakers, and recognized that some of them had great dynamics for example, I was just fooled by the price tag... Yeah, nothing to do with it, with just 300$ and DIY, you can beat those easily... All it takes is a little education and experience on the topic."
---------------------------------------
Come over to the DIY speaker thread and ask this sily question.

This wasn't a question. And 300$ doesn't get you close to what you'd need to build a DIY speaker approaching the quality of the speakers I mentioned (Kef Muons, Cabasse La Sphere, Wilson, JMLabs Utopia Be, Thor's Hammer dual 18inch sub, etc.). Just the drivers will run you a few thousands and wood a few hundreds... And you probably wouldn't have the workmanship nor the tools to do the job...

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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

There we have on occasion some very good speaker designers and some highly respected members of the audio world that will tell you yes it can be done easily.

For 300$? LMAO!

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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

They may not look as good.

naaaah... Ya think? Are you 100% sure?

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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

That depends on your skill level, but they sure will perform better.

Yeah ok Tell you what, build it for 300$, pay someone 5000$ to make it look good (should be doable, carpenter, whatever ), then sell it for 25000$, 1/6th of the price of the mentioned speakers. Almost 20000$ profit, fantastic deal for you and the buyer, since he's getting 150000$ worth of speakers for 25000$. Hell, sell 5 per year and that's 100k in your pocket. Sell 50 and that's a million dollars. Shouldn't be too hard no since they cost a sixth and also perform better? LOL

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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

In the DIY world people do not count their labor. Most people are not in DIY to save money (some are), most are there for the love of it and to get what they want. You will often times find that the speakers have better specs at their respective price points and some of the subs have performance that you have a hard time finding at any price point.

Thank you for this fabulous lesson in DIY. And people who aren't in DIY adn looking for ID or B&M speakers aren't interested in DIY.

Btw, I've done a couple DIY projects, and am actually working on 2 different speaker sets at the moment. If I could get the speakers I'm building for what the cost of their parts, 100% built, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But it would cost quite a bit more, hence, I'll do it myself and save a couple hundred/thousand dollars.
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post #102 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:11 PM
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[quote=cschang;18743819]Tiny? In comparison to what? The custom Sierra woofer has a good amount of excursion. I've compared the Sierra with good/competent floorstanders, and they hold their own.

I use a Rythmik F15 sub, in a 2200-2300^3ft living room.

[quote]

You definitely have a displacement mismatch, you will have issues at the XO. You will never know what Im talking about either until you actually have mains that can match the output of the F15. Will you hear the problem? I doubt it because you probably have never experienced proper matching power response systems.


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Penn, I'll ask you since mjg100 has not answer the question. What makes the Pro-10 like the JTR, Seatons, or Pro JBL?

The similarities are most likely Constant directivity and Sensitivity. I will post that I have no idea what the CD index on the Pro-10 is....the waveguide is much smaller so its probably only out to 45 degrees, horizontal and vertical.

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post #103 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You definitely have a displacement mismatch, you will have issues at the XO. You will never know what Im talking about either until you actually have mains that can match the output of the F15. Will you hear the problem? I doubt it because you probably have never experienced proper matching power response systems.

I can tell you this much, I have had experts over for a listen, and all have agreed that it is a seamless marriage. At one point I did have a phase issue as the crossover, but nothing a little sub phase adjustment couldn't fix. I did have problem with another subwoofer, but that was more due to sound quality and characteristics.

Can you give us your definition of "matching power response"?

-curtis

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post #104 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:23 PM
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I was answering this "you tell me what amp power you need so you are not clipping and then tell me what compression those Sierras have at the peaks!". Had nothing to do with the OP, Penn wanted to know what kind of amplification you'd need to run X, not the OP, I don't want him to get anything, he'll most probably be fine with what he has.

Probably not if he his sitting 12 feet away doesnt want clipping during some of the most demand scenes in popular movies.

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This wasn't a question. And 300$ doesn't get you close to what you'd need to build a DIY speaker approaching the quality of the speakers I mentioned. Just the drivers will run you a few thousands and wood a few hundreds...

And the speakers you listed have zero to do with this thread and the Sierras. As for quality, push those speakers to 120dB during peaks and they will be lower quality during those peaks then properly designed HT speakers. I would take Geddes Summas over any of those you posted. If given any of those speakers, i would simply sell them knowing they are way overpriced to start with and there is always enough foolish people to buy them from me.

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Btw, I've done a couple DIY projects, and am actually working on 2 speakers at the moment. If I could get the speakers I'm building for what the cost of their parts, 100% built, I'd do it in a heartbeat. But it would cost quite a bit more, hence, I'll do it myself and save a couple hundred/thousand dollars.

I know you have been interested in DIY, didnt know you started a speaker build. Any links or drivers details?

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post #105 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

The similarities are most likely Constant directivity and Sensitivity. I will post that I have no idea what the CD index on the Pro-10 is....the waveguide is much smaller so its probably only out to 45 degrees, horizontal and vertical.

Then the follow-on questions would be would you put them in the same class as the JTR or Seaton. How do the Pro-10's differentiate from "PA" type speakers using the same/similar drivers?

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post #106 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I can tell you this much, I have had experts over for a listen, and all have agreed that it is a seamless marriage. At one point I did have a phase issue as the crossover, but nothing a little sub phase adjustment couldn't fix. I did have problem with another subwoofer, but that was more due to sound quality and characteristics.

Can you give us your definition of "matching power response"?

What does the response look like at 105, 110 and 115dBs?

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post #107 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:30 PM
 
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I can look at the designs and specs to tell what they will do and they have nothing REAL HT designs like Danley or JBLs. Price tag does not predict high end HT performance for those of us with a little education and experience on the topic

What is silly is that one of us is talking about real numbers and the other is throwing around audiophile spin and overpriced audiophile designs that are not exactly accurate designs. I wonder who the OP is learning from here?

That's for sure. Kevin Haskins was laughing about how bad some of the high end speakers actually are. One of the Wilson speakers was specifically listed. Kevin is a driver design engineer and manufacturer. Not sure that the thread is still there since Kevin is no longer a sponsor at Theater Shack. I will see if I can find it.
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post #108 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I can tell you this much, I have had experts over for a listen, and all have agreed that it is a seamless marriage. At one point I did have a phase issue as the crossover, but nothing a little sub phase adjustment couldn't fix. I did have problem with another subwoofer, but that was more due to sound quality and characteristics.

Can you give us your definition of "matching power response"?

You're not getting this. Listening has nothing to do with it, he looked at the specs of your sub, your speakers, and he's telling you that you have issues at the XO level because you have "displacement mismatch".

Quote:


Probably not if he his sitting 12 feet away doesnt want clipping during some of the most demand scenes in popular movies.

Assuming he's trying to run it at reference level.

Quote:


I know you have been interested in DIY, didnt know you started a speaker build. Any links or drivers details?

Sure, here you go:
http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statements_Monitor.html
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...c5fcda1deb220c
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...TOKEN=21237985
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-374

And this. Orion from Siegfried Linkwitz, you might have heard of it.










Ok the 2nd one might not be the truth but it might be for all you know... Ok 2nd is this. Was curious to see what kind of performance a 230$ kit gives you vs 340SE and Sierra-1

[quote]
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That's for sure. Kevin Haskins was laughing about how bad some of the high end speakers actually are. One of the Wilson speakers was specifically listed. Kevin is a driver design engineer and manufacturer. Not sure that the thread is still there since Kevin is no longer a sponsor at Theater Shack. I will see if I can find it.

And have you heard it? Yes, it might be ridiculously priced, yes, it's FR is not as absolutely flat as it should, but it does some things quite well. A lot of systems costing 25000$ leave me quite cold (not that impressed about price, and if price/performance isn't there, isn't impressive to me.). But damn, those Wilsons can do dynamics and transients. Have you heard the Verity Audio Sarastro II? http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...ty/index5.html Yeah it measures poorly, its FR isn't quite exactly flat. But I doubt you'd laugh how bad they are and then go back to your RBH speakers...

I perfectly get the limitations of the Sierras, but going with another 1000$ will most probably simply be different compromises. Haven't heard the RBH, so couldn't tell you how it compares to Sierra exactly, maybe in HT with sub <80hz response isn't important, but even above 80hz its hard to find better, so you get that as an extra, which gives the possibility of running them full range like I do, since they don't require a sub like a speaker with an 80hz response. Maybe RBH is worth consideration, I've heard of the brand before, haven't heard much of the speakers themselves.
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post #109 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:36 PM
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What does the response look like at 105, 110 and 115dBs?

No idea. The only third party measurements I have seen that might help is a graph of deviation from linearity at 90dB...practically zero. Don't think that would help you much though.

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post #110 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:38 PM
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Then the follow-on questions would be would you put them in the same class as the JTR or Seaton. How do the Pro-10's differentiate from "PA" type speakers using the same/similar drivers?

You need to define "PA" type speaker. Pro Audio speaker designs in 2010 isn't like the cheap boxes put out 20 years ago and the assumption that PA = Bad SQ generalizes way too much. There are JBL and Behringer monitors that sound as good as many low cost, low SPL brands (even have real accurate measurements), the pro monitors have the clean higher end SPL making them possibly legit HT choice.

Now, you are asking the wrong guy about the pro-10 because Im not pushing that design and they are not in the same league as the JTRs or Seaton designs, they were never designed to compete with them either. They use low cost components so I doubt there is a significant difference from good low cost pro audio speakers with waveguides.

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post #111 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You need to define "PA" type speaker. Pro Audio speaker designs in 2010 isn't like the cheap boxes put out 20 years ago and the assumption that PA = Bad SQ generalizes way too much. There are JBL and Behringer monitors that sound as good as many low cost, low SPL brands (even have real accurate measurements), the pro monitors have the clean higher end SPL making them possibly legit HT choice.

Now, you are asking the wrong guy about the pro-10 because Im not pushing that design and they are not in the same league as the JTRs or Seaton designs, they were never designed to compete with them either. They use low cost components so I doubt there is a significant difference from good low cost pro audio speakers with waveguides.

That's part of what I am getting at. People are lumping speakers into specific groups with no definition, and certainly no measurements when it comes to the Pro-10.

I know you are not pushing them, which is why I am asking for your opinion.

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post #112 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

You're not getting this. Listening has nothing to do with it, he looked at the specs of your sub, your speakers, and he's telling you that you have issues at the XO level because you have "displacement mismatch".

Yes, you are trying to match the response of two drivers at all SPL levels. Its obvious there is a mismatch. Funny thing about this but there is a dicussion in the subwoofer forum on this topic right now and amazingly the entire thread is in agreement...funny how product owners tend to ignore the data because its something negative against what they enjoy.

You can enjoy whatever you buy, just realize the compromises involved.

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Assuming he's trying to run it at reference level.

Nope not reference levels, just 70dB at the listening position with a 25dB peak. that is 95dBs at the listening position for split seconds, his amps will clip during those peaks. Im only posting the facts. Some of us care about head room and you can choose not to care!


btw, thank for the links. good luck with your build!!

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post #113 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

That's part of what I am getting at. People are lumping speakers into specific groups with no definition, and certainly no measurements when it comes to the Pro-10.

I know you are not pushing them, which is why I am asking for your opinion.

I will defer discussion on the pro-10 to others. I have already said enough to probably get a nasty PM...sigh.

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post #114 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Nope not reference levels, just 70dB at the listening position with a 25dB peak. that is 95dBs at the listening position for split seconds, his amps will clip during those peaks. Im only posting the facts. Some of us care about head room and you can choose not to care!

Well, that depends on the amp's peak power, not average power, right?

Also not accounting for room influences as well, since that should give you some extra dB's.

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post #115 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

.........
I perfectly get the limitations of the Sierras, but going with another 1000$ will most probably simply be different compromises. .

I missed this point the first time.

Now that is an opinion I 100% agree with.

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You stated more than them being "very similar".
Not from RBH, but the tweeter is a custom unit (to Ascend) made by Seas. The woofer is also custom, but I do not know the manufacturer.

Can you point me to these "experts"?

I also think it is funny that you are talking about speakers from TCA and Ascend, that you have never heard before.

This is what I said: "I have owned many audiophile speakers. I even have an HT that uses speakers very similar to the Ascend 340-SE's." Looks like I did say "very similar". Post #72 in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1252539

You are right. The Ascends may sound like crap. I have been taking your word on those since you have heard them, but then again I guess I would need to know what you have listened to for comparison. Though I think you did post that the best HT system that you ever heard did use pro audio. (please correct if that is wrong and I will find the Sierra owner that posted that) Also I have not talked about either speakers sound quality. I have only been talking from a performance stand point. As to the sound quality I have been going by listening reports of the prototype. That is also why I have stated "if the Pro-10's live up to their promise and like most ID companies have a 30 day return policy. You are only out the shipping.
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post #117 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I will defer discussion on the pro-10 to others. I have already said enough to probably get a nasty PM...sigh.

Penn...that is just sad. You and I have often not seen eye to eye, but we still have good discussions. Don't let outside influences keep you quiet.

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post #118 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Well, that depends on the amp's peak power, not average power, right?

Also not accounting for room influences as well, since that should give you some extra dB's.

Amps really have power within their specs and really no more. Its going to clip past its specs during those peaks. The only question really then would be can we hear it? More times then not its just truncated performance, I describe it as the speakers just choking during the scene.

As for the extra dBs, we would really have to get the exact details of the room, listening distance, etc to be able to determine what his max SPL is and from that he can determine what his max average listening levels are.

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post #119 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

This is what I said: "I have owned many audiophile speakers. I even have an HT that uses speakers very similar to the Ascend 340-SE's." Looks like I did say "very similar". Post #72 in this thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1252539

You are right. The Ascends may sound like crap. I have been taking your word on those since you have heard them, but then again I guess I would need to know what you have listened to for comparison. Though I think you did post that the best HT system that you ever heard did use pro audio. (please correct if that is wrong and I will find the Sierra owner that posted that) Also I have not talked about either speakers sound quality. I have only been talking from a performance stand point. As to the sound quality I have been going by listening reports of the prototype. That is also why I have stated "if the Pro-10's live up to their promise and like most ID companies have a 30 day return policy. You are only out the shipping.

Read post #87.

First...you are right, the best HT I have heard did use pro audio speakers, but was also a well treated(correctly) room. In essence, it was a theater.

Sound quality vs performance...how do you differentiate?

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post #120 of 254 Old 06-07-2010, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Amps really have power within their specs and really no more. Its going to clip past its specs during those peaks. The only question really then would be can we hear it? More times then not its just truncated performance, I describe it as the speakers just choking during the scene.

Penn, I would be willing to bet, that you couldn't tell the difference of a scene playing with 120dB peaks, and the same scene soft clipping at 117dB.

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