Ascend Sierras for HT on a 1100 budget...would you do it?? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Originally Posted by mjg100
Right now this speaker (if it performs as promoted) gets people into the arena of high sensitivity, high power handling and directivity on a very limited budget.

By Gandarf
"You're talking about a speaker which basically no one has heard right? Also, as I mentioned, how is that any different than the hundreds of PA speakers available ranging from 50 to 400$?"

arena of high sensitivity - Check
high power handling - Check
directivity - Check
on a very limited budget - Check.

What is the difference between this and me showing some crappy white van audiophile speaker and trying to say it is the same as the Sierras.

I've answered that already. In a past post...

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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Two can play at this game. Here are some white vann specials. www.divincisound.com/tower2.htm They have that great audiophile speaker look. Now do they compare to good audiophile speakers any more than the speaker that you are using to put down the type of speakers that we have been suggesting?

Quote:


These have pretty much nothing to do with Ascend Sierras. Go to the ascend page and read a bit about them, then go read a couple of reviews or better yet hear a pair. If you had asked me what it takes to be in the league of Ascend sierras and I told you a box, drivers and a port, then you might have a point. The 100$ PA fit exactly with what made your 3000$ speakers great at HT. You mentioned nothing else.

Here, you named 4 criterias: "high sensitivity, high power handling and directivity on a very limited budget". Even the 50$ PA speakers I linked earlier perfectly fits those criterias. And that's why you think the PRO10s will be something worthwhile. Well, there's countless others out already which fits exactly those criterias.

If I said, as I said earlier, what makes the Sierra good is a tweeter, a woofer, a box and a port, then you could point to white van and say AHA! These got the same things for 100$!!! Quickly, what I'd answer is an inert cabinet, good drivers, well designed crossovers, nice finish, which results in transparent mids, etc. etc. and you thought white van fit the description, then by all means you'd be welcome to state it.

If what you want is: "high sensitivity, high power handling and directivity on a very limited budget". You already have a ton of speakers you could check out. Lots of PA which fit that description.


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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Just like there is audiophile crap speakers there are crap pro audio speakers. You seem to have a problem with making a distinction. Tell me how are you know the white van speakers are no good? There is no test data, you have not heard them and the specs are complete BS. Now tell me how are you going to prove it.

I'm not the one who brought up 'data', Penn was the one who kept harping about it. I've never said that white van speakers are no good. Nor did I say PAs would be no good either. Budget speakers are about compromise and all have different design goals and applications. I'm not out to prove anything. You think X speakers will be great then get them! What's the problem? You seem upset because the Pro10s don't seem to be much different than cheap PA speakers... What do you want me to do about it exactly?

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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

I know enough about the Pro-10 that I think it will be a good speaker. How about a put up or shut up test. Lets see if we can get some people together to perform a blind listening HT test between the Pro-10 and the Ascend Sierras. I say HT because that is what this whole thread was about. The OPer said he did not care for music. I will be happy to host. With all of the Ascend owners out there, surely there is an owner in my area. You find the Ascend owner and I will see what arrangement I can make for the Pro-10's. If you want to host then you make the arrangements for the Pro-10's. HT testing must be a blind listening test and must use different volume levels. Would like to see testing performed in a treated and untreated room. What do you say?

LOL you can do whatever the hell you want I don't care I've never said the Sierras are better than anything else. If you want SPL, go for PAs, if you're all about the look, then get some mini bose cube speakers, if you don't care at all about sound quality and just want speakers which can go loud, then get whatever you think fits this criteria. I've argued the point that sound quality isn't lost in HT. And that directivity and dynamics aren't the sole criterias to judge HT.

Btw, for the BT, If you're just going to blast the two speakers until one dies or plays above its limits, it's a pretty useless exercise. Why not bring a couple PA speakers to compare? 50$ PA and I don't know a pair of 350$ ones. You know, something like that, 299$ per:


http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...net?sku=601388

You'd be comparing speakers which have more in common and will be more fit for a blasting test than the Sierras. If you're going for pure SPL in HT, then even the cheap Peavy PA speakers would beat some very highly respect two way bookshelves costing much more. But that's not exactly the point now is it?

Btw, "HT testing must be a blind listening test and must use different volume levels." I think you meant same volume level (level matched), if one speaker is playing louder than the other, then the louder speaker will have the advantage.

Again, I'm not telling anyone to buy the Sierras over PA speakers or Pro10s, or studio monitors, or cubes, or white van speakers, or anything. I'm saying that good speakers, which I truly believe Sierras are, as well as Paradigms, Dynaudios, (and countless others) are a good choice for HT. If you're an SPL nut and just want pure dynamics, I've already said you can get other speakers, as Sierras aren't made for pure SPL like PA speakers are for example. So getting MTMs like RBH, or 340SEs, or Axiom M60 or M80 or whatever (it really doesn't matter) which will potentially go louder, would be a better choice, in that case. But going louder doesn't automatically make them a better choice for HT. There's more than max SPL and hitting 130dB.
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post #182 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 04:03 PM
 
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It has been mentioned that no one has heard the PRO-10's. Here are some links to specific posts from those who did get the chance to hear them:

Sandbagger from Motor City Audio's post

etccarroll's post

oscillate's long post

Rather than populate this thread with all the verbage from these three (and I picked them because Sanbagger is familiar with a lot of Mark Seaton's gear, etcarrol has a pretty nice high end system and is very picky about sound and oscillate is an accomplished diyer) in the thread, if anyone wants some listener's points of view, feel free to click on the links.
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post #183 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Once again you do not answer the basic question that was asked of you. Instead you respond with more rhetoric. I think you are avoiding answering my question as it will shot a large hole in your misplaced theory. That is that you believe speakers such as the Dyns and the Sierras are overkill when used for HT. But when you have a single system for both HT and music they are not overkill IMO.

You remind me of a coworker that would rather go down with the ship than admit someone else other than him has a valid point. It gets old rather quick when someones ego takes centerstage over what other people might think

Bill, seriously; now you're pulling my leg, right? You have a bet with someone on AVS, that no matter how many times I say I'm not going to post anymore, you know a way to get under my skin so that I'll comment? It's the only way I can explain your argument.

I'm not avoiding your question. OK, for those who didn't hear it the first dozen times Bill Mac asked me, the question is...would I use musical speakers, such as my Dyns, as Fronts in my HT. Answer...yes. BECAUSE MUSIC IS IMPORTANT TO ME.

But here's what the question is like, and a more apropos example I can't think of:

OP- I'm thinking of buying a Porsche. I've never driven one, but I heear it's nice. However, I don't care about speed. What do you guys think?

I NEVER...repeat NEVER...said if your room splits duty as HT and 2-channel listening salon, that musical Fronts didn't make sense. Duh; do we need to reiterate Sun is hot...sky is blue? But that has NEVER been the question.

It's what you've turned the argument into, because I guess that's one you feel you can win. But my advice...to the OP...is based on his lack of interest in music from his system.

I mean, does anyone re-read the original few posts? I'm not afraid of the printed word. I was the first one to chime in with a vote in post #3. I'll paraphrase...again

The Sierras are good, IMO, but more musical than you need...if you don't care about music.

Then Stevensctt says "oh yeah...this guy says your opinion is wrong".

Then ShadyJ says "the Sierras should make a good choice because they accurately reproduce the incoming electric signal into a corresponding sound"...lol

And then the Sierra fanclub comes rushing in. "Did you hear? There's a guy who wants to buy Sierras for his Fronts, and some guy is over on AVS trying to convince him otherwise. He says they're too musical for HT only, when the guy in question clearly said he doesn't care about music; I mean, went out of his way to say he didn't care about music. Gather up all the boys; we need to discredit this guy and fast".

Like I said, if you guys didn't hit it so hard every time someone made a peep against Sierras, maybe it would hold more weight.

Here's a conversation I could imagine having with Bill Mac:

BM- Hey CD, ever consider playing professional Basketball?

CD- No BM, I'm only 5'10". Don't think I'd do so well.

BM- YOU'RE AVOIDING THE QUESTION! What if you were 6'11"?

CD- Well, Bill...then I guess I might consider it.

BM- A HA! I thought so!

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #184 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 04:27 PM
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WOW! this thread is crazy....

The Pro-10 is very very promising...and it's unleashing is exciting...but few have heard it. (those few really seem to like it)
The way I see it if the OP is considering other speakers he hasn't heard then why not consider the Pro-10 which he hasn't heard either....heck he may love it... he may hate it... that's the chance you take with ID. Just because one guy loves Emotiva doesn't mean I will. So what if they haven't been heard by the masses, for $350 if they have a flat response, good imaging as horns have but don't cause ear bleeds they should be a good buy.

Some use JBL8340s for surrounds... I personally didn't think they were near good enough... but others like them.

The Pro-10 should begin shipping soon...If one is going to buy ID anyway it would be just plain silly to not throw them in the list, that's my opinion.

But you know what they say about opinions!

Personally if the OP is comming from a HTIB i'd recomment going out and listening to every brand he could find to get his ears first!
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post #185 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by claytont View Post

Just bought em but not sure if I made the right decision...want to properly test them and put em up against the TCA Pro 10s I have been hearing so much about...hopefully they will be available this month. Through lots of research, the Sierras seemed the best speakers for the price and comparable to much more expensive speakers.

Keep in mind I dont have nearly the optimal test environment, as my living room is probably the worst HT environment...(15x20 opening up to a 15x20 kitchen...listening area is roughly 8-10 ft from the fronts).

They should be arriving next week and will get a SPL meter from radio shack to give some readings.

Would like to hear some additional speaker recommendations to put them up against and some tips and how to use a SPL meter

I know nothing about speakers other than what I read here, but feel this is a good A/B test that some people would like to know who are around the $1200 L/C/R budget level.

My sytem is a Denon 790 with a LFM1-plus sub with HTIB surrounds...which will be replaced at a later date. Dont care about music, just HT. Recommendations on how to use an SPL meter with Audyssey?

That should be a fun test! I would recommend adding a B&M brand such as PSB or Revel (there are other good options, those spring to mind as good value speakers) if you think their efficiency will suit your desired volume.

Ron
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post #186 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post

WOW! this thread is crazy....

Yep..I didnt know what I was getting myself into.

Got the Sierra mains today...still waiting on the center and some stands to be delivered tomorrow...just a little tease today. So currently listening in 2.1 with them sitting on the floor w/o running Audyssey yet, these are impressive. Looking forward to getting everything tomorrow and get em properly calibrated.

Cant wait for those Pros either.
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post #187 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 04:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by claytont View Post

Yep..I didnt know what I was getting myself into.

Got the Sierra mains today...still waiting on the center and some stands to be delivered tomorrow...just a little tease today. So currently listening in 2.1 with them sitting on the floor w/o running Audyssey yet, these are impressive. Looking forward to getting everything tomorrow and get em properly calibrated.

Cant wait for those Pros either.

Hearing your first "real" speakers is quite the revalation, isn't it ? You may find yourself being another speaker addict. Heck, with any luck, in 2 years YOU can have 14 paragraph posts telling others they are clueless about speakers.
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post #188 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Hearing your first "real" speakers is quite the revalation, isn't it ? You may find yourself being another speaker addict. Heck, with any luck, in 2 years YOU can have 14 paragraph posts telling others they are clueless about speakers.

Ha, no kidding. I can see this being an expensive hobby. Shouldnt you be off the computer finishin those Pros Just kidding but looking forward to them.
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post #189 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 05:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

I've answered that already. In a past post...



Here, you named 4 criterias: "high sensitivity, high power handling and directivity on a very limited budget". Even the 50$ PA speakers I linked earlier perfectly fits those criterias. And that's why you think the PRO10s will be something worthwhile. Well, there's countless others out already which fits exactly those criterias.

If I said, as I said earlier, what makes the Sierra good is a tweeter, a woofer, a box and a port, then you could point to white van and say AHA! These got the same things for 100$!!! Quickly, what I'd answer is an inert cabinet, good drivers, well designed crossovers, nice finish, which results in transparent mids, etc. etc. and you thought white van fit the description, then by all means you'd be welcome to state it.

If what you want is: "high sensitivity, high power handling and directivity on a very limited budget". You already have a ton of speakers you could check out. Lots of PA which fit that description.



I'm not the one who brought up 'data', Penn was the one who kept harping about it. I've never said that white van speakers are no good. Nor did I say PAs would be no good either. Budget speakers are about compromise and all have different design goals and applications. I'm not out to prove anything. You think X speakers will be great then get them! What's the problem? You seem upset because the Pro10s don't seem to be much different than cheap PA speakers... What do you want me to do about it exactly?


LOL you can do whatever the hell you want I don't care I've never said the Sierras are better than anything else. If you want SPL, go for PAs, if you're all about the look, then get some mini bose cube speakers, if you don't care at all about sound quality and just want speakers which can go loud, then get whatever you think fits this criteria. I've argued the point that sound quality isn't lost in HT. And that directivity and dynamics aren't the sole criterias to judge HT.

Btw, for the BT, If you're just going to blast the two speakers until one dies or plays above its limits, it's a pretty useless exercise. Why not bring a couple PA speakers to compare? 50$ PA and I don't know a pair of 350$ ones. You know, something like that, 299$ per:


http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com...net?sku=601388

You'd be comparing speakers which have more in common and will be more fit for a blasting test than the Sierras. If you're going for pure SPL in HT, then even the cheap Peavy PA speakers would beat some very highly respect two way bookshelves costing much more. But that's not exactly the point now is it?

Btw, "HT testing must be a blind listening test and must use different volume levels." I think you meant same volume level (level matched), if one speaker is playing louder than the other, then the louder speaker will have the advantage.

Again, I'm not telling anyone to buy the Sierras over PA speakers or Pro10s, or studio monitors, or cubes, or white van speakers, or anything. I'm saying that good speakers, which I truly believe Sierras are, as well as Paradigms, Dynaudios, (and countless others) are a good choice for HT. If you're an SPL nut and just want pure dynamics, I've already said you can get other speakers, as Sierras aren't made for pure SPL like PA speakers are for example. So getting MTMs like RBH, or 340SEs, or Axiom M60 or M80 or whatever (it really doesn't matter) which will potentially go louder, would be a better choice, in that case. But going louder doesn't automatically make them a better choice for HT. There's more than max SPL and hitting 130dB.

I did not list on a limited budget. My post got caught in the middle of your post. I have only listed High sensitivity, high power handling and directivity. I have listed some info on the LF driver used in the Pro-10 and so has Craigsub. Hard to list reviews or show frequency response graphs on a product that is not out yet. Also I listed a challenge to you regarding the Pro-10's and the Sierras. I see that you are not willing to take the challenge. I think it is going to happen anyway by Clayton. I did list in the challenge that the volume level was to be varied. I put that in there just in case you decided to have the challenge at your house. In other words I did not want you stacking the deck by only using low volume listening levels. I wanted a level playing field where the speakers were compared at all listening levels. Also wanted the testing done in a treated and untreated room. I do not see how I could have offered a more fair evaluation. I should have added that a good sub is to be used during testing and the sub is to be set for 80hz for the Pro-10's.

I also listed what was the difference between the cheap pro audio speakers that you linked to and the Pro-10's. The cheap pro speakers that you linked to use cheap drivers with limited excursion and high distortion. Don't know about the JBL MRX, but I have heard some of the cheap Low dollar Behringer and Peavy speakers. These cheap speakers hardly have any crossover, cheap drivers and plastic boxes that flex all over the place. The Pro-10's have a nice Maple plywood braced box. Use an Eminience driver with 13mm xmax (last I was told) driver. The driver has very low THD, 1% to 4% from 80hz to 1,600hz when playing at 105db. If that does not impress you then you need to read up on driver design. If you are reading the posts, this is old information posted earlier in this thread. Post #175. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post18747495 The Pro-10 will have a crossover designed to mate the CD and LF drivers. Not just a stock crossover or a pair of resistors.
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post #190 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 05:38 PM
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Guys -- please, easy... lest we forget this is about loudspeakers? There are an infinite number of far more important and worrisome events happening in the world right now to be spending needless energy bickering about what someone else (the OP) will or will not like for his home theater. Think about that for a moment please

The OP will be trying some speakers, HE will choose what works best for his requirements -- simple. Most of you were newbies not too long ago and went through similar procedures. Some of you ended up preferring high-sensitivity, high-spl speakers for dedicated home theaters, others prefer a more traditional "monitor" style speaker and set hgiher priorities for music listening. There is no right or wrong here, it is all about personal preference.

I have designed / installed some incredible home theater / "professional" screening rooms for Hollywood bigwigs over the years and many of these systems used high-quality monitor style speakers. Please do not even begin to try and tell me that these systems are wrong and don't perform well or aren't loud enough, many of these were for directors/producers, big name actors and ADR's who review their "dailies" in the comfort of their homes. These are the same people who are producing the movies you watch in your home theater systems and who also have virtually infinite budgets for these screening rooms.

Controlled directivity speakers have advantages and disadvantages, and by the way, this is certainly not new nor does it require the use of a horn or waveguide. Controlled directivity can also be accomplished by the use of multiple transducers. Take for example the M&K S-150 -- it has tightly controlled directivity by using an array of tweeters to control off-axis response. This particular speaker was used by professionals to mix some of your favorite movies and has been used in major Hollywood screening rooms. After the introduction of the S-150, feedback from both professionals and consumers suggested an option to offer broader dispersion, less directivity because some listeners preferred this and it just happened to sound better in some rooms, so we integrated a wide / narrow directivity switch to accommodate those who preferred this option.

My point here is that there is no right or wrong -- even professionals, people who make there living on movies / home theater, will have differing opinions on everything, but their differing opinions must be equally respected.

The Sierra-1 is a wonderful loudspeaker for what it was designed for. I am sure the Pro-10 will work equally well for what it was designed to accomplish. Comparing these two speakers is apples and oranges and the OP does not know if he prefers apples or prefers oranges. Let him take a few good bites of each. Nobody here sold him or "pushed" Sierra's on him. I actually believe he was interested in 340 SE first but his own research led him to switch to Sierra. I firmly believe that when someone researches a product, his/her own preferences eventually lead them towards the product that matches what they want (or at least comes close).

When you have been doing this as long as I have, one can often find a bit of humor over the years at how there is always one main argument dividing the general consensus.

2 way vs. 3 way?
Full range tower vs. Bookshelf w/sub
Series crossover vs. Parallel crossover
metal tweeter vs. soft dome
Active vs. Passive speakers
Passive vs. Powered sub
Box sub vs. tube sub
Ported vs. Sealed (speakers or sub)
Time aligment vs. not time aligned
Tubes vs. Transistors
Class D vs. Class A/B
High-power amps vs. low-power amps
ID vs. Retail
DIY vs ID and Retail
This brand vs. that brand

It goes on and on, and it will continue forever as this is what makes our hobby (and for some of us, our profession) so great is that even with the present industry downturn and recession, these is still so much passion.

Guys, our industry is shrinking as the PC industry takes a larger bite out of us year after year, as they make in-roads and gain market share in consumer electronics. As far as I am concerned, we are all brothers in this small virtual home we call AVS. We are all after the same thing, quality sound in our homes - and while each of our definitions of quality will vary a bit, we should all agree that the pursuit of achieving better quality sound is what still drives this industry. We should not fight like this, it accomplishes nothing positive, turns people away and is simply bad for our industry.

This thread is filled with different opinions and those who argue opinion as fact simply look foolish to those who have more knowledge and experience...

Remember, we all share the same goals here....

David Fabrikant

audio professional and soft spoken representative of www.AscendAcoustics.com

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post #191 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigsub View Post

Heck, with any luck, in 2 years YOU can have 14 paragraph posts telling others they are clueless about speakers.

Craig, there it is in one sentence... I hereby nominate this sentence as being the best post in the history of AVS. I think AVS should use this in their marketing or at least as the description of the speaker forum.

David Fabrikant

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post #192 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 05:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ascend View Post

Guys -- please, easy... lest we forget this is about loudspeakers? There are an infinite number of far more important and worrisome events happening in the world right now to be spending needless energy bickering about what someone else (the OP) will or will not like for his home theater. Think about that for a moment please

The OP will be trying some speakers, HE will choose what works best for his requirements -- simple. Most of you were newbies not too long ago and went through similar procedures. Some of you ended up preferring high-sensitivity, high-spl speakers for dedicated home theaters, others prefer a more traditional "monitor" style speaker and set hgiher priorities for music listening. There is no right or wrong here, it is all about personal preference.

I have designed / installed some incredible home theater / "professional" screening rooms for Hollywood bigwigs over the years and many of these systems used high-quality monitor style speakers. Please do not even begin to try and tell me that these systems are wrong and don't perform well or aren't loud enough, many of these were for directors/producers, big name actors and ADR's who review their "dailies" in the comfort of their homes. These are the same people who are producing the movies you watch in your home theater systems and who also have virtually infinite budgets for these screening rooms.

Controlled directivity speakers have advantages and disadvantages, and by the way, this is certainly not new nor does it require the use of a horn or waveguide. Controlled directivity can also be accomplished by the use of multiple transducers. Take for example the M&K S-150 -- it has tightly controlled directivity by using an array of tweeters to control off-axis response. This particular speaker was used by professionals to mix some of your favorite movies and has been used in major Hollywood screening rooms. After the introduction of the S-150, feedback from both professionals and consumers suggested an option to offer broader dispersion, less directivity because some listeners preferred this and it just happened to sound better in some rooms, so we integrated a wide / narrow directivity switch to accommodate those who preferred this option.

My point here is that there is no right or wrong -- even professionals, people who make there living on movies / home theater, will have differing opinions on everything, but their differing opinions must be equally respected.

The Sierra-1 is a wonderful loudspeaker for what it was designed for. I am sure the Pro-10 will work equally well for what it was designed to accomplish. Comparing these two speakers is apples and oranges and the OP does not know if he prefers apples or prefers oranges. Let him take a few good bites of each. Nobody here sold him or "pushed" Sierra's on him. I actually believe he was interested in 340 SE first but his own research led him to switch to Sierra. I firmly believe that when someone researches a product, his/her own preferences eventually lead them towards the product that matches what they want (or at least comes close).

When you have been doing this as long as I have, one can often find a bit of humor over the years at how there is always one main argument dividing the general consensus.

2 way vs. 3 way?
Full range tower vs. Bookshelf w/sub
Series crossover vs. Parallel crossover
metal tweeter vs. soft dome
Active vs. Passive speakers
Passive vs. Powered sub
Box sub vs. tube sub
Ported vs. Sealed (speakers or sub)
Time aligment vs. not time aligned
Tubes vs. Transistors
Class D vs. Class A/B
High-power amps vs. low-power amps
ID vs. Retail
DIY vs ID and Retail
This brand vs. that brand

It goes on and on, and it will continue forever as this is what makes our hobby (and for some of us, our profession) so great is that even with the present industry downturn and recession, these is still so much passion.

Guys, our industry is shrinking as the PC industry takes a larger bite out of us year after year, as they make in-roads and gain market share in consumer electronics. As far as I am concerned, we are all brothers in this small virtual home we call AVS. We are all after the same thing, quality sound in our homes - and while each of our definitions of quality will vary a bit, we should all agree that the pursuit of achieving better quality sound is what still drives this industry. We should not fight like this, it accomplishes nothing positive, turns people away and is simply bad for our industry.

This thread is filled with different opinions and those who argue opinion as fact simply look foolish to those who have more knowledge and experience...

Remember, we all share the same goals here....

I could not even get through your second paragraph. Your arrogance in that sentence just hit me the wrong way and I did not even bother reading the rest of the post. Are you saying that there is no such thing as a speaker that is capable of high SPL and sound quality because that is exactly what you said. You make it sound like it is one or the other and that is complete BS. You can have both, but it costs a lot more than what the Sierras cost to get it.
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post #193 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 05:57 PM
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Got the Sierra mains today...still waiting on the center and some stands to be delivered tomorrow...just a little tease today. So currently listening in 2.1 with them sitting on the floor w/o running Audyssey yet, these are impressive. Looking forward to getting everything tomorrow and get em properly calibrated.

UPS only delivered one box? Hate when that happens

I am pleased to hear that at least the pair arrived safe and sound. One important comment, please get those Sierra's off the floor! At least place them on some chairs or stools -- they will sound so much better being about 2 feet off the floor (same for any bookshelf / stand mount speaker)

Once you do get them off the floor, and while I know this is taboo in this thread , put on a well recorded CD, dim the lights and enjoy...

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post #194 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 06:07 PM
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I have designed / installed some incredible home theater / "professional" screening rooms for Hollywood bigwigs over the years and many of these systems used high-quality monitor style speakers. Please do not even begin to try and tell me that these systems are wrong and don't perform well or aren't loud enough, many of these were for directors/producers, big name actors and ADR's who review their "dailies" in the comfort of their homes. These are the same people who are producing the movies you watch in your home theater systems and who also have virtually infinite budgets for these screening rooms.

David, thank you for the post...and thank you for trying to restore some sanity to a discussion that has admittedly gotten way out of hand. However...with all due respect, I still think you're missing the point...and I'll just speak for myself...my point...with the above statement.

You say "I've designed professional, high-quality rooms for Hollywood bigwigs...who know their stuff...and please don't dare tell me a musical monitor can't sound good in an HT". No one ever said that; at least I never did. What I said was I thought a musical monitor was overkill, for someone...like the OP...who clearly stated he wasn't interested in music/musicality.

Again...not to repeat myself, but I liken it to this argument: if someone asked me if a Porsche was a good car for him, even though he didn't really care to go very fast...I'd probably say "it's overkill...why spend the dough when you're missing out on the "best" aspect of what it does well"?

By your argument above, your retort would be "what...don't tell me the Porsche isn't a good car! I've driven some of the finest automobiles, and the Porsche is a damn fine car!" If you look closely, you'll see no one said it wasn't good. In fact, if you had to make a call one way or another, what was said is it's too good...for what the OP wants.

Respectfully,

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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I could not even get through your second paragraph. Your arrogance in that sentence just hit me the wrong way and I did not even bother reading the rest of the post. Are you saying that there is no such thing as a speaker that is capable of high SPL and sound quality because that is exactly what you said. You make it sound like it is one or the other and that is complete BS. You can have both, but it costs a lot more than what the Sierras cost to get it.

I hope like heck this comes across the right way. Please don't write off what David F. said as arrogant. I hope you can find the room to apologize for having said so.

I do agree with you that high sensitivity speakers can be just as musical as more traditional designs, but what will make more people realize this is time, getting more neutral high output monitors into people's systems, and letting the market take care of itself. There is a reason that a lot of people think that the choice in speakers is between "loud" and "accurate". For years, this has been true.

There will be people who are more than happy with the output and sound quality of the Sierras. In fact, I had them here in our system for a year, and enjoyed them immensely.

There will also be people who, despite our best efforts, don't like our PRO-10's. Hopefully that will be rare.

I guess the best way of putting this: No one should ever be made to feel bad for his/her preference in a speaker. Instead, let's just have more fun.

If I irritated the heck out of you with this post, I am sorry. I know you are well educated in speakers, and you have also been really supportive of our efforts, and you are appreciated.

Have your favorite adult beverage on me.
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post #196 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

I could not even get through your second paragraph. Your arrogance in that sentence just hit me the wrong way and I did not even bother reading the rest of the post. Are you saying that there is no such thing as a speaker that is capable of high SPL and sound quality because that is exactly what you said. You make it sound like it is one or the other and that is complete BS. You can have both, but it costs a lot more than what the Sierras cost to get it.

What?? You actually have a problem with my post?

Did you even bother to try and read what I stated? Please show me where I mentioned anything about "sound quality"?

You actually have a problem with this statement?

Quote:


The OP will be trying some speakers, HE will choose what works best for his requirements -- simple. Most of you were newbies not too long ago and went through similar procedures. Some of you ended up preferring high-sensitivity, high-spl speakers for dedicated home theaters, others prefer a more traditional "monitor" style speaker and set hgiher priorities for music listening. There is no right or wrong here, it is all about personal preference.

Are you saying you were never new to this hobby? Or do you have a problem that I categorized the two speakers as one being a high-sensitivity / high-spl speaker and the other being a more traditional monitor style loudspeaker? Is that not the truth?

And then you call my post arrogant?

So much for trying to be constructive here... I give up

David Fabrikant

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post #197 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Hehe...I feel like Im back on the ESPN forum listening to people arguing at each other about their favorite football team. Go VOLS!
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post #198 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 06:34 PM
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Hehe...I feel like Im back on the ESPN forum listening to people arguing at each other about their favorite football team. Go VOLS!

My recommendation would be that you never return to this thread again. Seriously.

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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post #199 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 06:41 PM
 
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What?? You actually have a problem with my post?

Did you even bother to try and read what I stated? Please show me where I mentioned anything about "sound quality"?

You actually have a problem with this statement?



Are you saying you were never new to this hobby? Or do you have a problem that I categorized the two speakers as one being a high-sensitivity / high-spl speaker and the other being a more traditional monitor style loudspeaker? Is that not the truth?

And then you call my post arrogant?

So much for trying to be constructive here... I give up

I explained why. Your post makes it sound like the choice is high SPL or musical sound quality. If that is not what you meant or implied I apologize. So my question is; are you saying there are no speakers that provide high SPL and sound quality?
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post #200 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 06:42 PM
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It's amazing how fast things can escalate. I read the thread when claytont first posted it and followed it for a day because I'm in the same situation, thinking of picking up Sierra L/C/R for a 60% HT system but I'm a bit more interested in the music aspect WRT the OP. Funny to find when I come back a couple days later and there's 6 pages of nothing but pissfest.

To OP, please make sure to post back after you get to listen to your sierra's and also with your thoughts of any other speakers you choose to audition.
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post #201 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 06:48 PM
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Hehe...I feel like Im back on the ESPN forum listening to people arguing at each other about their favorite football team. Go VOLS!

Clayton, I know you have the Sierras and you like them so far. I don't know much about these Pro 10s that you plan to audition as well...except that they seem to be highly anticipated, but not actually available just yet.

Just out of curiousity: do you plan to compare your Sierras against anything other than your previous HTIB; you know, that's actually available? I think the only point some of us have tried to make is this...and again, I'll use a car analogy...

a guy driving a Pinto (so as not to offend any current model), is likely to like a Mercedes, when he takes it for a test-drive, very much. But is there any harm in driving a VW, which costs less? There's no question you're going to like the Mercedes, but who says you wouldn't like the VW to the tune of about $50k less? Especially if you made a statement like "I'm not that concerned about luxury".

Now, by all means...if you drove the Mercedes, and then drove the VW, and you were like "wow, I see where all that money goes...there's no comparison"...and you can afford it, by all means cross the VW off your list. However, then you might want to try a BMW in the same price range as the Mercedes.

You see what I'm getting at? Let these other guys say what they want; all I ever tried to offer you was you might be perfectly happy with another speaker, since you said you weren't that concerned with what I consider to be a strong point of the Sierra, which is its musicality.

So you like your Sierras; excellent! But go try something else too, just to make sure. There are SOOO many good choices out there, at quite reasonable prices. Another point I was trying to make is don't just follow the hot choice on some Internet website. AVS is a GREAT wealth of information, and can definitely help you come up with and narrow some choices. But you've gotta listen for yourself too my man. Not to one pair of Sierras, and then sit and wait on some others that haven't even been released yet.

I hope this helps, as I'm about out of patience for the way this thing has gone.

Good luck,

CD

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything. -Plato
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post #202 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 08:02 PM
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David, thank you for the post...and thank you for trying to restore some sanity to a discussion that has admittedly gotten way out of hand. However...with all due respect, I still think you're missing the point...and I'll just speak for myself...my point...with the above statement.

You are welcome, I tried but apparently I was not successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post

You say "I've designed professional, high-quality rooms for Hollywood bigwigs...who know their stuff...and please don't dare tell me a musical monitor can't sound good in an HT". No one ever said that; at least I never did. What I said was I thought a musical monitor was overkill, for someone...like the OP...who clearly stated he wasn't interested in music/musicality.

Again...not to repeat myself, but I liken it to this argument: if someone asked me if a Porsche was a good car for him, even though he didn't really care to go very fast...I'd probably say "it's overkill...why spend the dough when you're missing out on the "best" aspect of what it does well"?

There seems to be (3) arguments in this thread. High-sensitivity, High-Spl speakers vs. traditional monitor style loudspeakers (as I would categorize the Sierra-1) vs. music is not priority so a musical monitor is overkill. Would that be an accurate categorization?

I should mention that when I refer to a monitor style loudspeaker, I do not refer to it being designed for music. My background in this industry actually leans more towards home theater and studio monitors whereby "monitor" style loudspeaker refers to a loudspeaker that is designed for accuracy regardless of the source material being sent to it - with a priority given to very flat on-axis frequency response, with specific off-axis and phase requirements. I am a firm believer in both on- and off-axis linearity with a smooth directivity index and I suppose this comes from working with engineers who have worked directly with Dr. Toole (Harman), recording engineers / speaker designers like K. Kreisel and scientists who have done ground breaking work on antenna theory (Dr. Lester Field - once the chief scientist for Hughes Aircraft) and, of course, my own listening and design experience and theories.

I am a firm believer that accuracy (when accuracy is based on above principles) is the most important factor in the design of a loudspeaker. There should really be no distinction between a home theater source or music source. In the statement you quoted, I did not mention musicality - I simply mentioned a traditional style monitor, and I only used that term to distinguish speakers like the Sierra-1 from the higher SPL / higher sensitivity speakers. Now, I should state that these higher SPL / higher sensitivity speakers can most certainly be designed with the same accuracy principles and when done so, the end result is a most formidable loudspeaker. However, traditionally, this comes with a hefty price tag as most high efficiency designs, particularly horn loaded compression tweeters, will have a ragged on-axis frequency response and possibly frequency response issues around the crossover points. There are many reasons for this, such as resonances both within the horn and along its perimeter, cone breakup modes in the larger diameter woofers and various other issues. Each of these can certainly be resolved but it comes with added costs. Dr. Geddes, for example, has a wonderful approach to dealing with these specific issues.

I don't, or at least I try not to use the term "musical" too often with loudspeakers as there is simply no definition for this. When I made the following statement:

Quote:


Some of you ended up preferring high-sensitivity, high-spl speakers for dedicated home theaters, others prefer a more traditional "monitor" style speaker and set higher priorities for music listening. There is no right or wrong here, it is all about personal preference.

When I refer to setting higher priorities for music listening, I refer to a loudspeaker that offers a bit more bass extension as it is my belief, which is based on corresponding directly with consumers for almost 3 decades now, that when it comes to listening to music, bass extension for the loudspeaker is an important factor. For a passive loudspeaker and all things being equal, in order to get bass extension, one must sacrifice efficiency. For example, you will never find a 6.5 ported 2-way loudspeaker that has both higher sensitivity AND deeper bass response than a similarly designed 6.5 ported speaker (assuming specifications are honest)

So, with the Sierra-1, we designed a traditional monitor style loudspeaker and to please those customers who do not like using subwoofers (and there are many of them), we sacrificed some efficiency to deliver some rather remarkable bass for a speaker of this size. This also allows one to cross to a subwoofer lower than the traditional 80Hz which can often help with improving subwoofer integration and various room and placement issues. Others say it is important to cross to the subwoofer at least a ½ octave or even a full octave lower than the speaker's -3dB point. With the Sierra-1 bass reaching into the 40Hz range, someone can have many different crossover options when using together with a subwoofer. I generally recommend 60Hz.

Of course, this additional bass extension adds manufacturing costs as well thus leading to a higher retail price.

With a speaker like the Pro-10 or similar, to get such high efficiency from the woofer, bass extension is sacrificed. This is not a knock on these speakers (although some here will take it that way), it is just physics. Take for example our CBM-170 SE, it is basically a bookshelf loudspeaker with ~90dB sensitivity and bass extension into the mid 50's. It is already a low mass woofer but we could remove even more mass and gain about another 3dB in efficiency and have a bass response that would be about -3dB at 80Hz.

Now that this is understood and back to your original question but somewhat re-worded to better represent what I have discussed, If the OP is not interested in music, is the bass response of the Sierra-1 overkill? I would say given two identical loudspeakers, one with bass extension below 80Hz and another with a -3dB point of 80Hz, and assuming he is using a good subwoofer - the additional bass could indeed be overkill in a home theater environment. However, it is also nice to have options and especially nice to turn that subwoofer off at times and run the speakers full range, especially late at night - about the only time I ever get to use my system

In addition, in the case of our Sierra-1 specifically compared to our other offerings, this speaker offers additional advantages that make it worthwhile such as better imaging, less cabinet resonance and better off-axis response that are equally important factors for home theater that should not be overlooked.

I know my response does not specifically answer your question, but I can not make such a generalization as your answer requires. I really hope this makes some sense here as it is not my intention to further derail this thread.

David Fabrikant

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post #203 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 08:18 PM
 
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You are welcome, I tried but apparently I was not successful.



There seems to be (3) arguments in this thread. High-sensitivity, High-Spl speakers vs. traditional monitor style loudspeakers (as I would categorize the Sierra-1) vs. music is not priority so a musical monitor is overkill. Would that be an accurate categorization?

I should mention that when I refer to a monitor style loudspeaker, I do not refer to it being designed for music. My background in this industry actually leans more towards home theater and studio monitors whereby "monitor" style loudspeaker refers to a loudspeaker that is designed for accuracy regardless of the source material being sent to it - with a priority given to very flat on-axis frequency response, with specific off-axis and phase requirements. I am a firm believer in both on- and off-axis linearity with a smooth directivity index and I suppose this comes from working with engineers who have worked directly with Dr. Toole (Harman), recording engineers / speaker designers like K. Kreisel and scientists who have done ground breaking work on antenna theory (Dr. Lester Field - once the chief scientist for Hughes Aircraft) and, of course, my own listening and design experience and theories.

I am a firm believer that accuracy (when accuracy is based on above principles) is the most important factor in the design of a loudspeaker. There should really be no distinction between a home theater source or music source. In the statement you quoted, I did not mention musicality - I simply mentioned a traditional style monitor, and I only used that term to distinguish speakers like the Sierra-1 from the higher SPL / higher sensitivity speakers. Now, I should state that these higher SPL / higher sensitivity speakers can most certainly be designed with the same accuracy principles and when done so, the end result is a most formidable loudspeaker. However, traditionally, this comes with a hefty price tag as most high efficiency designs, particularly horn loaded compression tweeters, will have a ragged on-axis frequency response and possibly frequency response issues around the crossover points. There are many reasons for this, such as resonances both within the horn and along its perimeter, cone breakup modes in the larger diameter woofers and various other issues. Each of these can certainly be resolved but it comes with added costs. Dr. Geddes, for example, has a wonderful approach to dealing with these specific issues.

I don't, or at least I try not to use the term "musical" too often with loudspeakers as there is simply no definition for this. When I made the following statement:



When I refer to setting higher priorities for music listening, I refer to a loudspeaker that offers a bit more bass extension as it is my belief, which is based on corresponding directly with consumers for almost 3 decades now, that when it comes to listening to music, bass extension for the loudspeaker is an important factor. For a passive loudspeaker and all things being equal, in order to get bass extension, one must sacrifice efficiency. For example, you will never find a 6.5 ported 2-way loudspeaker that has both higher sensitivity AND deeper bass response than a similarly designed 6.5 ported speaker (assuming specifications are honest)

So, with the Sierra-1, we designed a traditional monitor style loudspeaker and to please those customers who do not like using subwoofers (and there are many of them), we sacrificed some efficiency to deliver some rather remarkable bass for a speaker of this size. This also allows one to cross to a subwoofer lower than the traditional 80Hz which can often help with improving subwoofer integration and various room and placement issues. Others say it is important to cross to the subwoofer at least a ½ octave or even a full octave lower than the speaker's -3dB point. With the Sierra-1 bass reaching into the 40Hz range, someone can have many different crossover options when using together with a subwoofer. I generally recommend 60Hz.

Of course, this additional bass extension adds manufacturing costs as well thus leading to a higher retail price.

With a speaker like the Pro-10 or similar, to get such high efficiency from the woofer, bass extension is sacrificed. This is not a knock on these speakers (although some here will take it that way), it is just physics. Take for example our CBM-170 SE, it is basically a bookshelf loudspeaker with ~90dB sensitivity and bass extension into the mid 50's. It is already a low mass woofer but we could remove even more mass and gain about another 3dB in efficiency and have a bass response that would be about -3dB at 80Hz.

Now that this is understood and back to your original question but somewhat re-worded to better represent what I have discussed, If the OP is not interested in music, is the bass response of the Sierra-1 overkill? I would say given two identical loudspeakers, one with bass extension below 80Hz and another with a -3dB point of 80Hz, and assuming he is using a good subwoofer - the additional bass could indeed be overkill in a home theater environment. However, it is also nice to have options and especially nice to turn that subwoofer off at times and run the speakers full range, especially late at night - about the only time I ever get to use my system

In addition, in the case of our Sierra-1 specifically compared to our other offerings, this speaker offers additional advantages that make it worthwhile such as better imaging, less cabinet resonance and better off-axis response that are equally important factors for home theater that should not be overlooked.

I know my response does not specifically answer your question, but I can not make such a generalization as your answer requires. I really hope this makes some sense here as it is not my intention to further derail this thread.

I believe that is exactly what I said.
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post #204 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 09:03 PM
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I believe that is exactly what I said.

Wow, who's arrogant now?
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post #205 of 254 Old 06-08-2010, 09:40 PM
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Oh my!

There is some good info in all this mess!

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
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post #206 of 254 Old 06-09-2010, 03:49 AM
 
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Wow, who's arrogant now?

It would help if you had read the whole thread rather than the last few posts. All the way through this thread a few Sierra ownwers/supporters have made it sound like the choice is between loud poor, sound quality and a musical speaker like the Sierras.

I posted this in response to just such a post."
"Are you saying that there is no such thing as a speaker that is capable of high SPL and sound quality because that is exactly what you said. You make it sound like it is one or the other and that is complete BS. You can have both, but it costs a lot more than what the Sierras cost to get it."

Ascend posted this:
"Now, I should state that these higher SPL / higher sensitivity speakers can most certainly be designed with the same accuracy principles and when done so, the end result is a most formidable loudspeaker. However, traditionally, this comes with a hefty price tag"

I placed the quote in bold from the Ascend post that I responded to. That is all that I was referring to. Nothing else in his post. It looks to me that both statements are saying the same thing and that is all I said. Now how is that arrogant?

Added
The amazing thing is that it took seven pages of posts going back and forth before some one on the Sierra side admitted that there are speakers with high output and high sound quality.
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post #207 of 254 Old 06-09-2010, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

It would help if you had read the whole thread rather than the last few posts.

And it would help if you actually read an entire post before you responded.

Unbelievable. Please look up arrogant in the dictionary. Your photo is there.

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post #208 of 254 Old 06-09-2010, 11:37 AM
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I could not even get through your second paragraph. Your arrogance in that sentence just hit me the wrong way and I did not even bother reading the rest of the post. Are you saying that there is no such thing as a speaker that is capable of high SPL and sound quality because that is exactly what you said. You make it sound like it is one or the other and that is complete BS. You can have both, but it costs a lot more than what the Sierras cost to get it.

Why are you asking him to clarify what he is saying when you can't even be bothered to read his full post?

Ron
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post #209 of 254 Old 06-09-2010, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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I have read a few good things about the JBL Pro LSR2328P Bookshelfs. Good budget Pro speaker? Anyone have experience with them?
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post #210 of 254 Old 06-09-2010, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claytont View Post

I have read..............

I told you not to come back to this thread!

"All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it."
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