Paradigm Studio 60 v.4 Without A Subwoofer? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 9 Old 06-08-2010, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Longtime lurker, first time poster. Please be gentle.


I recently picked up a pair of brand-new Paradigm Studio 60s; my local dealer had a leftover pair of v.4s, factory sealed, that I got for a great price. I bought them without an audition, as I was already interested in upgrading to either the 60s or the 100s, and I've been very happy with my older Paradigms.

And they sound phenomenal for both music (which is my priority) and HT, far better than the Titan v.3s they are replacing. However, I'm a bit surprised and underwhelmed by the bass -- or lack thereof -- when I set my preamp (Arcam AVP700) to Stereo Direct mode, bypassing bass management and the subwoofer. They certainly don't sound as light as the Titans did without the sub, but despite what I've read in the various reviews they don't sound full-range to me. I was expecting these speakers to go a lot deeper than they do without the support of the subwoofer.

I have no problems leaving the sub on when listening to music, but I'm just curious if there's something wrong with them, or me, or perhaps this is just how they respond in my listening environment. (My living room, with no treatments outside of curtains, area rugs and typical LR furniture -- sounds surprisingly good "out of the box," can't wait to do some acoustic work in there...)

I have them placed about 13" from the rear wall (Paradigm recommends at least 8"), and 28" from the side walls, slight toe-in (the imaging is great), and while I did set them up bi-amped from my P1000, I also tested with single wires as well.

Anyone else with Studio 60 v.4 and similar experience? Or using them successfully in a pure 2-channel setup?

Thanks in advance... and for all the great info I've picked up during my lurking years.
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post #2 of 9 Old 06-12-2010, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Just a little bump... anyone?
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post #3 of 9 Old 06-12-2010, 11:04 AM
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Bass response with a given speaker is very room dependent.

How large is your room? How are the spekaers positioned, do you have roome treatments, etc?
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post #4 of 9 Old 06-12-2010, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by math-geek View Post

Bass response with a given speaker is very room dependent.

How large is your room? How are the spekaers positioned, do you have roome treatments, etc?

Unfortunately I don't have a dedicated listening room (oh, someday!) so it's just my living room. Approximately 12'w x 17' 6"l x 9'h, speakers along the 12' wall (currently I have them 10.5" from the rear, 24" from the side walls, slight toe-in).

The listening position (i.e the couch, nothing fancy) is slightly further than halfway across the room.

Plaster walls (the house is 130 years old), hardwood floor w/ an area rug in the middle, no dedicated treatments yet (I'll get to that soon, after I learn more about what I might need). Just the couch, some bookcases along the back wall (CD and DVD storage), a few small tables.
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post #5 of 9 Old 06-12-2010, 02:28 PM
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You may want to check how your preamp 'behaves' during Stereo Direct mode.

I have a Yamaha V1800 avr which has a Pure Direct mode for 2-channel listening.

What I found is that if I used the configuration that I saved where Bass=sub and Fronts=small, and if I went to Pure Direct, then the Fronts were still 'small' with no full bass and, therefore, of course, the bass sounded weak and anemic.

I since have a secondary configuration saved where I have Sub=none, Fronts=Large. Then if I listen to music in Pure Direct, I go to this saved configuration and the bass thru my front speakers has full bass.

Just something to check.....
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post #6 of 9 Old 06-19-2010, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Tracy View Post

You may want to check how your preamp 'behaves' during Stereo Direct mode.

I have a Yamaha V1800 avr which has a Pure Direct mode for 2-channel listening.

What I found is that if I used the configuration that I saved where Bass=sub and Fronts=small, and if I went to Pure Direct, then the Fronts were still 'small' with no full bass and, therefore, of course, the bass sounded weak and anemic.

I since have a secondary configuration saved where I have Sub=none, Fronts=Large. Then if I listen to music in Pure Direct, I go to this saved configuration and the bass thru my front speakers has full bass.

Just something to check.....

Good idea, so I went through and made sure that I had everything set to 2-channel only when listening to stereo sources. I disabled the sub completely, and set the front L-R speakers to large. Even though that should've taken care of everything, I also set the crossover to 40Hz (the lowest available setting) before disabling the sub, just in case.

Then I A-B'd between regular mode and Stereo Direct, both sounded identical: not a complete absence of bass, but far less than I would expect from these speakers. They still sound incredible with the sub in the mix, with excellent clarity and soundstage, very pleasing mids and not a hint of harshness in the highs. I guess I'm just surprised at their pure 2-channel sound; if I didn't already own a sub I'd be pretty disappointed.
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post #7 of 9 Old 06-19-2010, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrewDrinkRepeat View Post

Good idea, so I went through and made sure that I had everything set to 2-channel only when listening to stereo sources. I disabled the sub completely, and set the front L-R speakers to large. Even though that should've taken care of everything, I also set the crossover to 40Hz (the lowest available setting) before disabling the sub, just in case.

Then I A-B'd between regular mode and Stereo Direct, both sounded identical: not a complete absence of bass, but far less than I would expect from these speakers. They still sound incredible with the sub in the mix, with excellent clarity and soundstage, very pleasing mids and not a hint of harshness in the highs. I guess I'm just surprised at their pure 2-channel sound; if I didn't already own a sub I'd be pretty disappointed.

Another thing to check it to make sure both speakers are wired in phase to your amp - don't have the speaker wires reversed compared to the other.

If they are wired correctly, and you want to see if you can get more bass, then move your speakers closer to the wall or corners. You'll get more bass re-inforcement, but possibly at the sacrifice of bass accuracy (more bass, but 'tubbier').

Of course, your setup may just need a sub for the bass you want.
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post #8 of 9 Old 07-11-2010, 03:19 AM
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yeah that is more or less in line with my experience (room is open plan, hard to describe but has two 7m dimensions in there). the 60s were my first decent piece of gear - adding a REL 505 sub got them to where i expected them to have started

hard to tell how much was to do with my room (which is far from ideal for any number of reasons) and how much was to do with my speakers.

that said, signature 8's have fixed all problems quite adequately ...with the embarrassing exception of first reflection points - I have a DIY acoustic panel project planned...
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post #9 of 9 Old 07-11-2010, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrewDrinkRepeat View Post

However, I'm a bit surprised and underwhelmed by the bass -- or lack thereof -- when I set my preamp (Arcam AVP700) to Stereo Direct mode, bypassing bass management and the subwoofer. They certainly don't sound as light as the Titans did without the sub, but despite what I've read in the various reviews they don't sound full-range to me. I was expecting these speakers to go a lot deeper than they do without the support of the subwoofer.

My guess would be that you're running the sub a little bit hot so the bass is more accentuated with the sub on. When you turn it off, the flat response of the 60's sound like a lack of bass. I bet if you leave the sub off for a couple of days I bet you'll get used to it and the bass will "come back" as you get used to the new sound.

Or there could just be lots of sub-45Hz information in the music you're listening to and the sub is picking that up...which is why we all have subs in the first place.

I don't think there's anything wrong with your setup or your gear.
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