Shades of Tesla... My Bi-Wiring Experiment - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 370 Old 08-13-2010, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

My contention is that in the jim lesurf work you linked too, the result was a very small benefit may be possible. I concur,...very small.

The small possible benefit ( about the same magnitude as a amplifiers thermal noise level) is due to reduction of heating I/R losses (larger wires) and nothing else. Magnetic modulation of very small HF signal by very large LF signal is proven to be wrong.

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post #362 of 370 Old 08-14-2010, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

If it takes 3,000 words per post to subtly endorse an idea, I'd love to see what happens when you passionately endorse something.

No sh*t, he's got my endorsement for longest post ever.
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post #363 of 370 Old 08-14-2010, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mntmst View Post

The small possible benefit ( about the same magnitude as a amplifiers thermal noise level) is due to reduction of heating I/R losses (larger wires) and nothing else. Magnetic modulation of very small HF signal by very large LF signal is proven to be wrong.

Magnetic interaction and resultant modulation of all types occur, including x/over crosstalk, proximity and skin effects, mutual induction,..etc.

Obviously your understanding of this exceeds mine. When you state that "Magnetic modulation of very small HF signal by very large LF signal is proven to be wrong", can you link to these findings? Is this multiple works that concur, or a single source?

What about the reduction of IM caused by generator effect and ringing and overshoot?

Some aspect here is attributable to the results I consistently hear. It's subtle, but not as intermittent as I once thought. I agree that some psycho-acoustic phenomenon may be at play, however I've attempted to account for these points.

Also, as stated before, when the room is minimized and listening in the near field, proper source material is used, and capable boxes playing at live levels are employed, I've found consistent results.


YMMV
Thanks

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post #364 of 370 Old 08-14-2010, 11:42 AM
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I'll be glad to answer questions or add further information for clarification, but the collective wisdom of the contributors to this thread would be better served elsewhere.

We're really splitting hairs here. It's entirely possible that even if what I consistently hear is the result of minimizing some detrimental interaction, or an expectation bias placebo type effect, it's real.

I've spent the last few hours experimenting. I've been listening to music and white noise changes from bi-wiring, in as controlled situation as I could. Side by side 2 ways, toed in axially, comparing the spectral changes with one bi-wired and one single. Very consistent slight spectral tilt upwards with a touch brighter presentation. Two boxes on top of one another, same result. I know two sources in two places in a room can have changes as great as this or even greater due to comb filtering FR etc... Certainly not a stringent test but whatever.

Put it all back together, back to my ITU 5.1 config and reset levels etc... I'm done, back to movies and music. I'm spent, like the first time I ever pushed a new car sales rep as far as my argumentative talents would go. Like they want, you're worn out and spent and then you cave on dealer prep.


Chill...
Going to my CDs and my recordings, I need to sit and just enjoy some music, kinda like a re-calibrating..... John Coltrane was first, listening at low levels. Nice, fresh ground Kenyon coffee, playing with the dog. Ok, enough. Time to listen at live levels. I recently suggested to Warp my fave LF demo material that actually is musically satisfying; Black Uhuru's cover of Slipping Into Darkness. Stunning production values and killer bass guitar. Not John Entwistle type speed, just very low, low stuff, that has this "spongy" compression effect that makes it lilt along and very nice. It's as if Steely Dan were to hire a Reggae singer and cover the War classic. It's outstanding LF demo material and I never see it referred to in Bass threads.

Point being, right now, I'd rather discuss something else. Now tomorrow whatever, but right now, I'm air bass thumpin'. Anyone familiar w/ that release? It's badd-ass. Listen here; http://www.amazon.com/gp/recsradio/r...k=003&disc=001
Any bass players here? Is that a 5 string? Is it some type of Sub Harmonic Synthesis,...at any rate, it's low, and powerful.


Have a great day, a great weekend, take in your local Fair.

Thanks

------------------------------------
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post #365 of 370 Old 08-14-2010, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Magnetic interaction and resultant modulation of all types occur, including x/over crosstalk, proximity and skin effects, mutual induction,..etc.

Obviously your understanding of this exceeds mine. When you state that "Magnetic modulation of very small HF signal by very large LF signal is proven to be wrong", can you link to these findings? Is this multiple works that concur, or a single source?

What about the reduction of IM caused by generator effect and ringing and overshoot?

Some aspect here is attributable to the results I consistently hear. It's subtle, but not as intermittent as I once thought. I agree that some psycho-acoustic phenomenon may be at play, however I've attempted to account for these points.

Also, as stated before, when the room is minimized and listening in the near field, proper source material is used, and capable boxes playing at live levels are employed, I've found consistent results.


YMMV
Thanks

For there to be IMD there has to be a non-linear function. For two wires separated by (non ferromagnetic) air or common insulators the magnetic field limit before saturation is so high that the conductors will vaporize at a tiny fraction of that point. The current theory for magnetic field limits is about 10^42 Gauss. The magnetic field of a black-hole is about 10^17G.

http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/

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post #366 of 370 Old 08-15-2010, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mntmst View Post

For there to be IMD there has to be a non-linear function. For two wires separated by (non ferromagnetic) air or common insulators the magnetic field limit before saturation is so high that the conductors will vaporize at a tiny fraction of that point. The current theory for magnetic field limits is about 10^42 Gauss. The magnetic field of a black-hole is about 10^17G.

http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/

Magnetic Intermod
Are you stating that the field of a LF conductor, or crossover component can't modulate a non-linear result into an adjacent HF current carrying component?

Physical Intermod
The LF driver in any conventional, multi-way, dynamic speaker, is anything but linear. The generator effect causes potential inter-modulation problem with it's resultant counter EMF, when the woofer continues motion at any point after input voltage ceases.

Searching Bi-wiring intermod;
http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html
http://www.audioholics.com/education...parison-page-2

Senior Speaker Designer for Linn on Bi-wiring and Back emf;
http://www.legendspeakers.com.au/biwiring.html

Thanks

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post #367 of 370 Old 08-15-2010, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Magnetic Intermod
Are you stating that the field of a LF conductor, or crossover component can't modulate a non-linear result into an adjacent HF current carrying component?

Physical Intermod
The LF driver in any conventional, multi-way, dynamic speaker, is anything but linear. The generator effect causes potential inter-modulation problem with it's resultant counter EMF, when the woofer continues motion at any point after input voltage ceases.

Searching Bi-wiring intermod;
http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html
http://www.audioholics.com/education...parison-page-2

Senior Speaker Designer for Linn on Bi-wiring and Back emf;
http://www.legendspeakers.com.au/biwiring.html

Thanks

Don't change the subject. We are talking about bi-wire so any comments I make are about the actual wiring from an amp to a speaker. The transducer/crossover statements are just a smokescreen to cover BS.

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post #368 of 370 Old 08-15-2010, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mntmst View Post

Don't change the subject. We are talking about bi-wire so any comments I make are about the actual wiring from an amp to a speaker. The transducer/crossover statements are just a smokescreen to cover BS.

Easy...
I do not employ tactics such as that. Period
You failing to recognize that I am discussing bi-wiring, in every aspects of my statements in the post in question, illicits a response like that from you.

Re-read my statements if you like. Prior to my statements I asked for clarification due to the levels of Gauss you're throwing around....and you're claiming I'm changing the subject

Your post is very illustrative of expectation bias I guess.....

If you like, could you point out the BS in question?

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post #369 of 370 Old 08-20-2010, 05:16 PM
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A passive cross-over component, like let's say an inductor is a very different animal than a two conductor speaker cable.

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post #370 of 370 Old 08-21-2010, 02:04 AM
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Amusing discussion.

I Corithians 8:2

Semi-illiteracy should be a class A felony
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