Shades of Tesla... My Bi-Wiring Experiment - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 370 Old 07-10-2010, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

Here is a link to a bi-wire/bi-amp discussion where bi-wire is dealt with:
http://www.audioforums.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=14401
Some claim benefit and some don't to the bi-wire implementation. And you are certainly not wrong. See the extensive papers on psychoacoutics by Floyd Toole on the Infinity website as it pertains to what can be heard and what can be measured.

That thread is worse than this one.

The Toole papers are interesting though and even though you infer they support the case for bi-wiring I found no mention of speaker wire in the papers posted at the Infinity website at all.

In fact if you read each paper as a complete document and do not take any of the statements out of context, Toole is very much a believer in measured data.
When he says the measured data has to be interpreted he is not saying the data is lacking. Nowhere in the papers does Toole infer that the measured data does not capture everything, in fact the inference is just the opposite, the measured data detects everything regardless of the significance to what humans hear and it must be interpreted so that the design engineers will not waste time and money trying to fix the flaws that people do not (or can not) hear.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #92 of 370 Old 07-11-2010, 03:24 PM
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The point is, FOH, that none of what you're saying makes practical differences in what we perceive. Potential external interactions within wires pumping hundreds of watts of signal are a non-issue. Fix the room, the recording, the .5% THD producing $20k speakers, the listener and then fix the insignificant things like .05% THD from amplifiers. Once that's done, maybe playing with magnetic modulation whateveration from some unidentifiable external source will have a perceivable affect.
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post #93 of 370 Old 07-11-2010, 03:55 PM
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The difference is in the OP's Head there is no truly measurable difference, he probably just turned the stereo a notch louder the second time without conciously knowing it.

One shall stand... One Shall Fall... - Optimus Prime
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post #94 of 370 Old 07-11-2010, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

The point is, FOH, that none of what you're saying makes practical differences in what we perceive. Potential external interactions within wires pumping hundreds of watts of signal are a non-issue. Fix the room, the recording, the .5% THD producing $20k speakers, the listener and then fix the insignificant things like .05% THD from amplifiers. Once that's done, maybe playing with magnetic modulation whateveration from some unidentifiable external source will have a perceivable affect.

Or do something cheap as in some extra speaker wire to bi-wire which won't cost much versus trying to fix the room's acoustics or your other suggestions. There is a general rule in audio about the closeness of whatever you are trying out relative to the closeness to the actual signal (for example, the least expensive tweak of a home theater system is to change out the speaker wire to a smaller gauge and thicker wire). If you cannot hear any difference, than it will not have cost you much to try it out. And you can always go the more expensive route to bi-amp with its associated increased costs and then use the extra speaker wire or whatever else comes to mind. You still may need to deal with your room acoustics. If possible, tweaking should be inexpensive. This is the challenge and the fun of putting together your own Home Theater System versus hiring a professional and then being afraid to change anything, for those so inclined. Too many users just do thought experiments in their heads with the input from measurements and/or other user's input, rather than just doing something that won't cost a lot of money. It is always possible that what you find will defy the conventional wisdom that has been spouted time and time again. You will then have found a counter example to the conventional wisdom and that is enough to make it invalid as a general, ironclad, all purpose statement. If one is not willing to flout conventional wisdom every now and then, then one cannot test conventional wisdom and preferably do it in an inexpensive way.
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post #95 of 370 Old 07-11-2010, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by chashint View Post

That thread is worse than this one.

The Toole papers are interesting though and even though you infer they support the case for bi-wiring I found no mention of speaker wire in the papers posted at the Infinity website at all.

In fact if you read each paper as a complete document and do not take any of the statements out of context, Toole is very much a believer in measured data.
When he says the measured data has to be interpreted he is not saying the data is lacking. Nowhere in the papers does Toole infer that the measured data does not capture everything, in fact the inference is just the opposite, the measured data detects everything regardless of the significance to what humans hear and it must be interpreted so that the design engineers will not waste time and money trying to fix the flaws that people do not (or can not) hear.

The first statement is your opinion and as you note opinions are free.

The second statement is true, but I was just backing up FOH's statement quoted in my first post onto this thread and not trying to infer anything about bi-wire.

The third statement is not quite true. As pointed out by Toole, somewhere, it depends who measures it and how. As to design engineers for speakers, there are notable examples by Toole about high end speakers intentionally distorting sound and giving the speaker more apparent pizzass. So many Toole papers that I can't remember where he wrote this. If you are interested and you seem to be, then buy Floyd Toole's book Sound Reproduction, copyright 2008, that has been discussed on the AVS Forum. Plenty of accolades about this book on AVS and Amazon. Mine is on order and will come in next week.
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post #96 of 370 Old 07-11-2010, 09:32 PM
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Nope, the third statement is accurate.
Read the whole paper or at least each paragraph and understand what it says.
You cannot pull a sentence out and use it however you want to.

You are the one who suggested the papers on the Infinity website, there is no question that Toole believes in measurement and subjective listening to understand what in the measured data is important.

http://infinitysystems.com/home/tech...rt_science.pdf

Toole does say some speakers are / were intentionally designed to add distortion.
Don't take it out of context, that design was intentional and since Toole specifically said it was high end speakers... apparently people liked it and were willing to pay for it.

For you to back up FOH is the same thing as saying an electrical circuit is magic, its not.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #97 of 370 Old 07-11-2010, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by chashint View Post

Nope, the third statement is accurate.
Read the whole paper or at least each paragraph and understand what it says.
You cannot pull a sentence out and use it however you want to.

You are the one who suggested the papers on the Infinity website, there is no question that Toole believes in measurement and subjective listening to understand what in the measured data is important.

http://infinitysystems.com/home/tech...rt_science.pdf

Toole does say some speakers are / were intentionally designed to add distortion.
Don't take it out of context, that design was intentional and since Toole specifically said it was high end speakers... apparently people liked it and were willing to pay for it.

For you to back up FOH is the same thing as saying an electrical circuit is magic, its not.

OK, thanks for your courteous writing. I will just bi-wire because it is possible while you will not.

I am sure that you will agree that there is no perfect audio reproduction system and consequently, the users are always dealing with coloration as compared to what was actually recorded. Of course, one cannot know just how it was recorded and what it actually sounded like during that recording session and then make a valid judgment as to the accuracy of the reproduced sound, unless one made the recording. Hence, most users choose what appeals to them and that may not be accurate. A similar line of reasoning will come when it comes to the video element of the home theater system. Is what you are seeing on screen what the director intended? There is no way to know that, in terms of color, texture, etc. So that home theater systems are highly subjective and with many variables that can be controlled by the user. No doubt you have seen enough films at the theater and the same film on blu-ray disc and most of the time the blu-ray is a lot sharper and sounds a lot better than it did at the theater. Blu-ray, in a sense, is coloration, but frequently a pleasant one that one can get to like.
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post #98 of 370 Old 07-12-2010, 02:08 PM
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Bi-wiring because its possible and is what you want to do is one of the only valid reasons for doing it.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #99 of 370 Old 07-12-2010, 02:25 PM
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Good. Then I'm doing it for all the right reasons... Because I can.
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post #100 of 370 Old 07-12-2010, 08:03 PM
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Good. Then I'm doing it for all the right reasons... Because I can.

And it won't cost you much.
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post #101 of 370 Old 07-12-2010, 08:18 PM
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Yes, the world will always have its assortment of junior Don Quixote types. You may try and gently set them off on a more fruitful course but they'll often drift off to do what they will do anyway, following the flights their own fancies.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #102 of 370 Old 07-12-2010, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post


I am sure that you will agree that there is no perfect audio reproduction system and consequently, the users are always dealing with coloration as compared to what was actually recorded. Of course, one cannot know just how it was recorded and what it actually sounded like during that recording session and then make a valid judgment as to the accuracy of the reproduced sound, unless one made the recording. Hence, most users choose what appeals to them and that may not be accurate............


I'm not sure how any of this (and your subsequent video analogy) applies to what is being discussed. Nobody is questioning whether bi-wiring is more or less accurate. Simply put, it's six of one, half dozen of another.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #103 of 370 Old 07-12-2010, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Yes, the world will always have its assortment of junior Don Quixote types. You may try and gently set them off on a more fruitful course but they'll often drift off to do what they will do anyway, following the flights their own fancies.

And can you come up with a less expensive hardware upgrade?
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post #104 of 370 Old 07-12-2010, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

I'm not sure how any of this (and your subsequent video analogy) applies to what is being discussed. Nobody is questioning whether bi-wiring is more or less accurate. Simply put, it's six of one, half dozen of another.

My point is that any system is always dealing with colorations, whether you want to admit that or not. Accuracy is important - if not just go with whatever you like, even if it turns out to be highly distorted. It's your choice.
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post #105 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quite a can of worms I opened.

I've been on the phone to Polk nearly every day since this thread began, buying a subwoofer and asking various questions... They seem to employ people who are truly passionate about audio.

Of course the subject of bi-wiring has come up several times, and it's worth noting that opinion is split down the middle, even at Polk. Some believe in it, others do not.

Perhaps it take a noob like myself to point out the obvious... I've done some fairly heavy reading, and the fact is that no proof exists that absolutely supports or debunks bi-wiring. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Any reasonable person is certainly entitled to lean towards one side of the fence or another in such a scenario, but only an idiot covers his ears and rants before conclusive proof has been established.

For my part, I believe I heard a difference. I'm inclined to think it helps in some situations. However, I'll keep an open mind... And I'll certainly accept it if proof is ever irrefutably established that disproves the effectiveness of bi-wiring.

I've always thought staying slightly off-center from neutral is a wise course of action when weighing in on unresolved issues. An opinion is a fine thing to have, but deeply ingrained hotly-held beliefs will eventually make an ass out of one... At least fifty percent of the time.
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post #106 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by maguire View Post

Quite a can of worms I opened.

I've been on the phone to Polk nearly every day since this thread began, buying a subwoofer and asking various questions... They seem to employ people who are truly passionate about audio.

Of course the subject of bi-wiring has come up several times, and it's worth noting that opinion is split down the middle, even at Polk. Some believe in it, others do not.

Perhaps it take a noob like myself to point out the obvious... I've done some fairly heavy reading, and the fact is that no proof exists that absolutely supports or debunks bi-wiring. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Any reasonable person is certainly entitled to lean towards one side of the fence or another in such a scenario, but only an idiot covers his ears and rants before conclusive proof has been established.

For my part, I believe I heard a difference. I'm inclined to think it helps in some situations. However, I'll keep an open mind... And I'll certainly accept it if proof is ever irrefutably established that disproves the effectiveness of bi-wiring.

I've always thought staying slightly off-center from neutral is a wise course of action when weighing in on unresolved issues. An opinion is a fine thing to have, but deeply ingrained hotly-held beliefs will eventually make an ass out of one... At least fifty percent of the time.

I have a friend who is almost as critical of audio as I am and about 2 months ago he bought a pair of Polk Rti12s as front R&L speakers and then hooked them up via a Denon 7.1 AVR. Because the 12s are full range speakers, they require a lot of wattage (3 woofers per speaker) and he wasn't at all satisfied with what came out of the 12s. He called Polk and tech support said to bi-wire them and give up the rear most speaker positions that he wasn't using anyway. He did that and now he is a happy camper.
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post #107 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

I have a friend who is almost as critical of audio as I am and about 2 months ago he bought a pair of Polk Rti12s as front R&L speakers and then hooked them up via a Denon 7.1 AVR. Because the 12s are full range speakers, they require a lot of wattage (3 woofers per speaker) and he wasn't at all satisfied with what came out of the 12s. He called Polk and tech support said to bi-wire them and give up the rear most speaker positions that he wasn't using anyway. He did that and now he is a happy camper.

Is that biwiring or biamping where he redirected the unused channels on the Denon to the 'woofers'? IIRC, the woofers on the RTi12's really function more like a quasi subwoofer that derives its power not from an internal amp, but from the receiver. So, if you're running them full range, it's not going to be too difficult to exhaust the available power in a receiver, don't you think?

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post #108 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Is that biwiring or biamping where he redirected the unused channels on the Denon to the 'woofers'? IIRC, the woofers on the RTi12's really function more like a quasi subwoofer that derives its power not from an internal amp, but from the receiver. So, if you're running them full range, it's not going to be too difficult to exhaust the available power in a receiver, don't you think?

I actually have not seen the arrangement. I would suspect that it is bi-wire because his particular 7.1 Denon AVR does not allow for bi-amp, at least that is my guess and it was just a matter of connecting wires. If you are really curious, call up Polk and ask them. Just as a side note, he is running a 5.1 home theater system with a self powered 12" Polk subwoofer via LFE. The 12s are set as large speakers which isn't too surprising given the surface areas of six 7" woofers versus the 12" subwoofer.
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post #109 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by maguire View Post

Quite a can of worms I opened.

I've been on the phone to Polk nearly every day since this thread began, buying a subwoofer and asking various questions... They seem to employ people who are truly passionate about audio.

Of course the subject of bi-wiring has come up several times, and it's worth noting that opinion is split down the middle, even at Polk. Some believe in it, others do not.

Perhaps it take a noob like myself to point out the obvious... I've done some fairly heavy reading, and the fact is that no proof exists that absolutely supports or debunks bi-wiring. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Any reasonable person is certainly entitled to lean towards one side of the fence or another in such a scenario, but only an idiot covers his ears and rants before conclusive proof has been established.

For my part, I believe I heard a difference. I'm inclined to think it helps in some situations. However, I'll keep an open mind... And I'll certainly accept it if proof is ever irrefutably established that disproves the effectiveness of bi-wiring.

I've always thought staying slightly off-center from neutral is a wise course of action when weighing in on unresolved issues. An opinion is a fine thing to have, but deeply ingrained hotly-held beliefs will eventually make an ass out of one... At least fifty percent of the time.

Audio is pretty much an innocuous endeavor, in that believing something without evidence does no real damate (other then maybe to the wallet or time). I say enjoy. Sadly, people take that same approach with other, more important subjects, like health care, for example, where the consequences are much more significant.

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For my part, ... I'm inclined to think it helps in some situations. However, I'll keep an open mind... And I'll certainly accept it if proof is ever irrefutably established that disproves the effectiveness of antineoplastons.

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post #110 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

I actually have not seen the arrangement. I would suspect that it is bi-wire because his particular 7.1 Denon AVR does not allow for bi-amp, at least that is my guess and it was just a matter of connecting wires. If you are really curious, call up Polk and ask them. Just as a side note, he is running a 5.1 home theater system with a self powered 12" Polk subwoofer via LFE. The 12s are set as large speakers which isn't too surprising given the surface areas of six 7" woofers versus the 12" subwoofer.

Well, what Denon AVR does he have?

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post #111 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by maguire View Post

Quite a can of worms I opened.

I've been on the phone to Polk nearly every day since this thread began, buying a subwoofer and asking various questions... They seem to employ people who are truly passionate about audio.

Of course the subject of bi-wiring has come up several times, and it's worth noting that opinion is split down the middle, even at Polk. Some believe in it, others do not.

Perhaps it take a noob like myself to point out the obvious... I've done some fairly heavy reading, and the fact is that no proof exists that absolutely supports or debunks bi-wiring. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

Any reasonable person is certainly entitled to lean towards one side of the fence or another in such a scenario, but only an idiot covers his ears and rants before conclusive proof has been established.

For my part, I believe I heard a difference. I'm inclined to think it helps in some situations. However, I'll keep an open mind... And I'll certainly accept it if proof is ever irrefutably established that disproves the effectiveness of bi-wiring.

I've always thought staying slightly off-center from neutral is a wise course of action when weighing in on unresolved issues. An opinion is a fine thing to have, but deeply ingrained hotly-held beliefs will eventually make an ass out of one... At least fifty percent of the time.

If your listening test was uncontrolled then you might as well ignore what you think you heard since Placebo effects are very strong in audio!!!

Part of the listening test is to realize what is being changed and also get the discussion definitions right because bi-wiring sometimes is really bi-amping. People get it wrong all the time. BI-wiring is always with ONE amp channel still powering all drivers. Bi-amping is when individual drivers get their own amp channel.

Bi-amping can have real differences. Bi-wiring can not. Those are proven statements.

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post #112 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 02:57 PM
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I've stated many times, the physics is the one strong thing bi-wiring has in it's corner. And it the physics that you take exception to. Whether one's system can resolve it, source material and even if one is listening for it is for a discussion after we get thru the physics.

Huh??? That would be incorrect!!

There isnt any real physics that supports bi-wiring improvements. Just audiophile pseudo physics which is not meaningful and has zero acedamic proof behind it.

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post #113 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Well, what Denon AVR does he have?

Denon AVR889
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post #114 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 05:46 PM
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There isnt any real physics that supports bi-wiring improvements. Just audiophile pseudo physics which is not meaningful and has zero acedamic proof behind it.

Yes, and it was that kind of thinking that thought that the earth was flat. There is the high probability that academic proof is entirely lacking because it is not worth the time to investigate such trivia. I find it amusing that so many swear up and down that it makes no difference and aren't willing to experiment themselves as in $3 worth of speaker wire, if that. This does assume that you have high end speakers to bi-wire.
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post #115 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 06:00 PM
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Yes, and it was that kind of thinking that thought that the earth was flat. There is the high probability that academic proof is entirely lacking because it is not worth the time to investigate such trivia. I find it amusing that so many swear up and down that it makes no difference and aren't willing to experiment themselves as in $3 worth of speaker wire, if that. This does assume that you have high end speakers to bi-wire.



My speakers are custom designs similar to Salk HT3s, lower in quality but the design is similar. Im planning to upgrade to RAALs.

I spend more then more per year in testing then most own in equipment. I have speaker wire worth $2K in my room for testing right now.

You want to put money of against me, my testing or my opinion be my guest. You definitely posted the wrong comment in thinking I do not test. I PUT MY MONEY ON THE LINE EVERYWHERE!!!

Please post the data that back ups the differences of course you posting "high end speakers are needed" simply shows how you drink the audiophile koolaid and how much audio education and audio science you lack. Im not interested in debate with minor leaguers so I suspect not to be impressed at all. The high end comment is simple a strawman's arguement and a foolish one at that. Learn about Crossover design then you will understand what Im talking about.

Btw, think about it, Audiophiles drinking mythical koolaid are the flat earth crowd. The rest of us are learning and teaching new ideas daily!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #116 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Bi-amping can have real differences. Bi-wiring can not. Those are proven statements.

With respect, they are not.

I'm sure you can show extensive research that supports this claim, but others can show extensive research that contradicts it. I may be a relative noob, but the fact that this is a subject which continues to be debated by equally respected proponents and detractors is glaringly obvious.
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post #117 of 370 Old 07-13-2010, 09:09 PM
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Btw, think about it, Audiophiles drinking mythical koolaid are the flat earth crowd. The rest of us are learning and teaching new ideas daily!

I don't usually quote myself, however, are you implying that my experience below was purely a placebo effect

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Not to derail this thread, but I just wanted add my 2 cents.

I tried bi-wiring and found it to be a parlor trick...ridiculous. High-end cables...no better than lamp cord. High power amplifier headroom...rubbish. Tining strands of wires...tedious, but useless. I could not discern any difference in the sound of my Sony HTIB system with any of those pseudoscientific "remedies". There seemed nothing I could do to improve the lack of soundstage and muddy detail.

Then, I found these - http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html. Placing these behind the tweeters of my speakers and surrounding the Sony HTIB receiver in a hexagonal pattern resembling, but not imitating, a pentagram resulted in a soundstage the size of Madison Square Garden in my single-wide trailer. The placement of instruments was so precise in the soundstage I could hear the smile on the bass players face, and the slight - but unmistakable - passing of a silent, but deadly, flatulence from the rear of the guitar player.

I don't believe this could all be in my head as I take my medications religiously. When I remove the Blackbody's from the system I lose all the positive attributes. I was curious if anyone has had a chance to rigorously test these devices.

PS - My chronic back pain no longer bothers me........

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post #118 of 370 Old 07-14-2010, 03:39 AM
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Btw, think about it, Audiophiles drinking mythical koolaid are the flat earth crowd. The rest of us are learning and teaching new ideas daily!

Good for you, you have saved $3.
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post #119 of 370 Old 07-14-2010, 04:06 AM
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My speakers are custom designs similar to Salk HT3s, lower in quality but the design is similar. Im planning to upgrade to RAALs.

I spend more then more per year in testing then most own in equipment. I have speaker wire worth $2K in my room for testing right now.

You want to put money of against me, my testing or my opinion be my guest. You definitely posted the wrong comment in thinking I do not test. I PUT MY MONEY ON THE LINE EVERYWHERE!!!

With all of this expensive equipment, why would you even think of bi-wiring because you can bi-amp or better (e.g.,tri-amp?)? There is no reason for you to even bother to bi-wire. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and you have yours. I find your sanctimoniousness to be quite humorous.
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post #120 of 370 Old 07-14-2010, 04:16 AM
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I don't usually quote myself, however, are you implying that my experience below was purely a placebo effect

Looking at your link, one of these things cost $959 which is more than the vast majority of HTIB's. At that price, it had better have made a difference and your experience is your experience - no question about that or your experience with bi-wiring.
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