Shades of Tesla... My Bi-Wiring Experiment - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-25-2010, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Nonsense as stated. AVRs have multiple independent amps.

The nonsense must be building up. See the post before yours.
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Old 07-25-2010, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

You are wrong with your definition. Bi-amping and Bi-wiring are completely different wiring configurations. One is not the subset of the other. Please go do some reading on each.

I run a full active XO setup that I designed (DIY speakers). I will let you figure out what that means and you will realize that I know a little bit about TRUE multi-amp setups

I noticed that you avoided answering my question of whether or not you had bi-wired anything and done what would have been detailed measurements. That could imply that you have never done it and in your case with that sort of hardware, why would you bother?
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Old 07-25-2010, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by chashint View Post

Fundamental electrical theory does apply and the only easy measurement to make is resistance which someone calculated to be .04 ohms delta for 10 ft #14 speaker wires.
The problem is the handwaving, the cherry picking, and the invention of theory while totally disregarding the real world numbers.
This is not an infinite length transmission line where the lumped element components affect the signal, its comparing one ~10 ft speaker wire to two parallel ~10 ft speaker wires which are carrying frequencies with 1/4 wavelengths that are huge.
You cannot ignore the electrical wavelength, it takes significantly large values of LCR to change the waveform.
While the LCR values of the wire may be quantifiable they are so many orders of magnitude lower than the values in the crossover components that its contribution in the real world circuit is insignificant.
You can't just ignore orders of magnitude that are hundreds / thousands / or more, its important to recognize the value changes required to control or alter the frequencies in the circuit.
I think its great if bi-wiring makes anyone enjoy their equipment more, but if you look at the whole picture it is simply impossible for a bi-wire to do anything to the sound quality verses a single wire.

This talk of poorly designed jumpers degrading the signal, low impedence paths absorbing non-existant IMD, and bi-wire somehow magically preventing 20 Hz from modulating 20 kHz is simply fantasy engineering.


Chas,

We can discuss "LCR" properties and your statements about what is and what isn't significant in speaker wires, but let's settle some fundamental differences first.

"The problem is the handwaving, the cherry picking, and the invention of theory",... handwaving and cherry picking, whatever, .. but invention of theory..I only wish! I can see me receiving the Nobel Prize for physics in bi-digital nose picking, and during the award ceremony, chashint in the back row raises his hand in objection.

Anyway, what theory am I making up? If this is my stuff, I want credit for it!

Seriously, none of this is mine. A very wide range of industry designers acknowledge, discuss and utilize these effects, and I'll only list the most prominent. Dunlavy, Wilson, Vandersteen, Marshiotto, Colloms, Nudell, manufactures such as Westlake, Lipinski, B&W, JBL. Are you familiar with these individuals?

How about John Watkinson? Have you ever read any of his books?

Thanks




These effects of bi-wiring exist regardless of my inability to articulate them or your inability to recognize them.

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Old 07-25-2010, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

I noticed that you avoided answering my question of whether or not you had bi-wired anything and done what would have been detailed measurements. That could imply that you have never done it and in your case with that sort of hardware, why would you bother?

Sort of hardware? I have more $$$ in audio equipment sitting in my garage then most do in systems

Bi-wiring is a fools game. Im not a fool. Besides I run one amp channel per driver so please explain how I can remotely bi-wire a setup like that?

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Old 07-25-2010, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Seriously, none of this is mine. A very wide range of industry designers acknowledge, discuss and utilize these effects, and I'll only list the most prominent. Dunlavy, Wilson, Vandersteen, Marshiotto, Colloms, Nudell, manufactures such as Westlake, Lipinski, B&W, JBL. Are you familiar with these individuals?

How about John Watkinson? Have you ever read any of his books?

Thanks

Bad list, you listed those in the audio game for profits. John Watkinson is a waste of time to read. Read Toole, Linkwitz and stuff from the likes of Geddes.

Quote:
These effects of bi-wiring exist regardless of my inability to articulate them or your inability to recognize them.

You have never to produce audiable measured differences and you have never produced a controlled listening test that proved there is a difference.

You produce those then people will accept opinion on the topic.

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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Old 07-25-2010, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Sort of hardware? I have more $$$ in audio equipment sitting in my garage then most do in systems

Bi-wiring is a fools game. Im not a fool. Besides I run one amp channel per driver so please explain how I can remotely bi-wire a setup like that?

You seem to have optimized whatever hardware you have with one amp channel per driver. So you cannot bi-wire, but then again why should you even attempt to? My bad solution would be for you to buy an AVR and try it - just kidding.
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Old 07-25-2010, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Chas,
We can discuss "LCR" properties and your statements about what is and what isn't significant in speaker wires, but let's settle some fundamental differences first.

Ok, I will take the bait.
You start...
What is the value of L, C, or R (or any combination) it will take to shift the -3dB point or the -6 dB point of the crossover filter response .1, 1, 10, 100 or 1000 Hz (you pick frequency and the direction of the shift and you can pick what ever cross over design you want). Then tell me the length of the bi-wire required to produce the same change relative to a single wire.

Or tell me what the L, C, and R are for a 10-foot speaker wire at 100 Hz and 10 kHz and then do the same for bi-wired configuration (wire gauge of your choice).

Or (using wire gauge and drivers of your choice) tell me the amplitude of the intermod created by woofer CEMF those surfaces in the High section for a single wire and then do the same with bi-wire configuration.

Or quantify what value of magnetic field strength is required for the LF current to modulate the HF and what is the value of the modulated LF ripple in the HF ? At what level is this modulation detectable in the sound ? How much is the the value of the modulated LF ripple in the HF reduced in bi-wire configuration ?

If you can quantify any one of these it will settle all of my fundamental differences with everything you are saying.

Oh, BTW I think bi-digital nose picking is a talent that is as worthy of the prize as some of the recent winners have been so I would support you on this one

Regards,
Charlie

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Old 07-26-2010, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Bad list, you listed those in the audio game for profits. John Watkinson is a waste of time to read. Read Toole, Linkwitz and stuff from the likes of Geddes.



You have never to produce audiable measured differences and you have never produced a controlled listening test that proved there is a difference.

You produce those then people will accept opinion on the topic.


Penn,
I've read Toole, Linkwitz and Geddes.

Tell me, I list industry leaders, whose work is widely acclaimed, and you say bad list. I left out legions of proponents of bi-wiring that don't have the pedigree of these individuals because I knew whatever source I use, it would be shot down "kill the messenger" style. I list only manufactures that are in the monitor business, not hi-fi, mid-fi crap.

So the standard you set for information is they can't be in it for profits. I understand you discounting Bil Low, Cardas and Bruce Brisson*,..even though Brisson's work is lauded his pricing is truly insane. However your lack of acknowledgement of Dunlavy, Wilson, Vandersteen, Marshiotto, Nudell, and their take on bi-wiring makes little sense to me.

*(Here's a guy who most likely knows as much or more about audio cables than most anyone in the world. He puts himself out-there for live scrutiny at shows. His white papers on his site are truly fascinating, and not pseudo-science, he sells DIY stuff that emulates his commercial work, he's recognized by his peers as the man, Monster is still riding on the work he did for them even though he left after just giving them a couple of designs, what gives him a bad name is that he sells $38,000 speaker cables, I say more power to him)


As far as me providing measured audible differences (I have seen a scope trace or some meter readout screen cap or sim, illustrating reduced intermod due to bi-wirng) and producing a controlled listening test so people will accept my opinion, I can't do that. Nor do I want to. What I want to do is convince individuals to try it themselves,...instead of them claiming results are impossible. If one doesn't hear benefits that's fine.

Superposition and the physics of magnetic fields don't just cease because this is an audio speaker cable. They interact and that interaction can produce non-linearities. We can argue circuit analysis til were blue in the face, but when the LF transducer overshoots or rings, does that intermod voltage created just disappear? Can it appear in the HF driver passing through the crossover elements; sure. Can it be better dealt by being damped and absorbed via a lower impedance path directly to the amp terminals, yes.

Can these effects be system dependant; absolutely. Can the distortions be masked effectively with content; yes. Can different source material highlight these distortions, most likely as can some possibly be immune due to spectral weight.

I don't know much about subjective bias other than it exists. In this situation, there is such a strong bias against the possibility of a positive result, wouldn't that mean that such a result would carry more weight than normal? Kinda like the New York Times doing a negative expose on the Democratic party,...or Rush Limbaugh doing a puff piece on Rahm Emanuel.

I've taken part in so called controlled listening tests with others, not on bi-wiring, but on speaker differences (huge). I also suspect and have read that "test taking mode" may produce problems. Right hemisphere/left hemisphere, analytical vs enjoyment stuff, that just circles us back around in endless debate. I'm more akin to relaxation and dropping one's defenses and listening for enjoyment.

That's hard to do when we (you, me and most here) possess technical knowledge about the entire chain; everything from mains voltage from the wall and protection from environmental influences, to microphone and recording techniques, AD/DA design improvements(Sony, 1982; Perfect Sound Forever), different formats and storage media, pre-amplification, IC miniaturization, discreet components and enlargement of equipment, signal manipulation and DSP, power amplification and classes, loudspeaker advancement and trends (the sub/sat "advancement", still firmly rooted is such a two edged sword, room interaction of LF optimization placement is a good thing, however many people went from powerful multiways, to 4" 2 ways w/ a sub) sorry, I digress.

My point is we can be so analytical, and putting the enthusiast knowledge aside and enjoying the recorded event, as you know isn't easy...but very rewarding. Controlled listening tests are prolly the most valid, but it's not kicking back and enjoying the virtues of your new piece.


No, I don't want people to accept my opinion or yours, I want them to listen for themselves.

Thanks

btw, smack dab in your wheel house,...I stumbled across a collection of those ol' Rodrigues cartoons http://www.angelfire.com/in3/hifijohn/rod.html

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Old 07-26-2010, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by chashint View Post

Ok, I will take the bait.
You start...
What is the value of L, C, or R (or any combination) it will take to shift the -3dB point or the -6 dB point of the crossover filter response .1, 1, 10, 100 or 1000 Hz (you pick frequency and the direction of the shift and you can pick what ever cross over design you want). Then tell me the length of the bi-wire required to produce the same change relative to a single wire.

Or tell me what the L, C, and R are for a 10-foot speaker wire at 100 Hz and 10 kHz and then do the same for bi-wired configuration (wire gauge of your choice).

Or (using wire gauge and drivers of your choice) tell me the amplitude of the intermod created by woofer CEMF those surfaces in the High section for a single wire and then do the same with bi-wire configuration.

Or quantify what value of magnetic field strength is required for the LF current to modulate the HF and what is the value of the modulated LF ripple in the HF ? At what level is this modulation detectable in the sound ? How much is the the value of the modulated LF ripple in the HF reduced in bi-wire configuration ?

If you can quantify any one of these it will settle all of my fundamental differences with everything you are saying.

Oh, BTW I think bi-digital nose picking is a talent that is as worthy of the prize as some of the recent winners have been so I would support you on this one

I do appreciate the levity and it's more enjoyable as we go forward.

Well I wont say I'd be glad to discuss that suff, but I will. I'm not that well versed in x over design. But what you left out of your quote was what I'd prefer to get out way first;

What, out of all your objections to what I've put forth, what one is foremost in your mind when you make claims that I'm making theory up. Just pick one. Intermod? Magnetic modulation?

Thanks

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Old 07-26-2010, 11:20 AM
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FOH, your assertion that intermod and magnetic modulation are audible is objectionable. Your insistence on verbosity is also objectionable.
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Old 07-26-2010, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

FOH, your assertion that intermod and magnetic modulation are audible is objectionable. Your insistence on verbosity is also objectionable.

Brevity is the sole of wit.

Obviously audibility is what counts, however my primary objection is the stance of many posters that state that 1.) intermod or 2.) mag field interaction, are impossible.

I can't prove audibility, each individual must do that.

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Old 07-26-2010, 12:23 PM
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Chas,

"What is the value of L, C, or R (or any combination) it will take to shift the -3dB point or the -6 dB point of the crossover filter response .1, 1, 10, 100 or 1000 Hz (you pick frequency and the direction of the shift and you can pick what ever cross over design you want). Then tell me the length of the bi-wire required to produce the same change relative to a single wire."

I don't know

"Or tell me what the L, C, and R are for a 10-foot speaker wire at 100 Hz and 10 kHz and then do the same for bi-wired configuration (wire gauge of your choice)."

Those LCR values stay essentially the same. When current flows in the new network, I would think the reactive values change due to frequencies handled by each branch being differant

"Or (using wire gauge and drivers of your choice) tell me the amplitude of the intermod created by woofer CEMF those surfaces in the High section for a single wire and then do the same with bi-wire configuration."

I don't know but here's a graphic of limited value; http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html it's one of the only graphic representations comparing before and after bi-wire,..as stated limited value.

"Or quantify what value of magnetic field strength is required for the LF current to modulate the HF and what is the value of the modulated LF ripple in the HF ? At what level is this modulation detectable in the sound ? How much is the the value of the modulated LF ripple in the HF reduced in bi-wire configuration ?"

Regardless of the magnitude of the magnetic fields, they interact. What level is detectable, I don't know. Like many others, in some circumstances it's audible, in others it's not.

Thanks

btw, My wife and I had the opportunity to enjoy a digital projection of Inception at one of our local IMAX theaters, sweet. Lacking in sub 40hz weight, even being boundry loaded as we were, but over-all,...quite a treat

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Old 07-26-2010, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

FOH, your assertion that intermod and magnetic modulation are audible is objectionable. Your insistence on verbosity is also objectionable.

You know, jmichaelf has a good point. Let's wrap this up.

Thanks

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Old 07-26-2010, 01:11 PM
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Old 07-26-2010, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

even though Brisson's work is lauded his pricing is truly insane. However your lack of acknowledgement of Dunlavy, Wilson, Vandersteen, Marshiotto, Nudell, and their take on bi-wiring makes little sense to me.

Note I underlined Dunlavy, a truly fine Engineer. As you seem to assert here he was a proponent of bi-wiring, which given his general published stance on cables I find improbable, provide a citation and reference to back up this would be appreciated.

As for Brisson, lauded by whom? As shown recently in other cable threads here (also referencing patent info) all has is done is add zobels which will do stuff all.
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Old 07-26-2010, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Penn,

No, I don't want people to accept my opinion or yours, I want them to listen for themselves.

That is the bottom line.
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Old 07-26-2010, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Note I underlined Dunlavy, a truly fine Engineer. As you seem to assert here he was a proponent of bi-wiring, which given his general published stance on cables I find improbable, provide a citation and reference to back up this would be appreciated.

As for Brisson, lauded by whom? As shown recently in other cable threads here (also referencing patent info) all has is done is add zobels which will do stuff all.

Maybe I'm wrong but Dunlavy states in that published stance nothing about bi-wiring. However he does state "Having said all this, are there really any significant audible differences between most cables that can be consistently identified by experienced listeners? The answer is simple: very seldom!"

Adding as to the reason he's in the business of cables "significant measurable differences do exist"


His bi-wiring stance seems to be situational... "Cordesman on Dunlavy;The Aletha has a biwire, biamp capability, although I should note that John Dunlavy is among the many speaker designers who believe that biamping is a good recipe for screwing up the sound of a speaker by adding two colorations where only one is necessary and that most forms of biwiring simply randomly alter the designer's crossover design and create more problems than solutions." adding "This view is controversial, however, and respected designers like Richard Vandersteen feel that biwiring has serious benefits. I find the outcome is very amplifier and cable dependent and suggest you experiment for yourself."

"Even DUNLAVY loudspeakers, (usually huge tower mega buck units favored by some at the top of the Mastering trade) a notorious audio cable curmudgion, who thinks that anything beyond 12 gauge lamp wire of reasonable copper purity is silly for speaker cabling, tells you in equally strong words to the effect "My speaker products are signifigantly more optimized Bi-wired, even if you have only one amp".

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Old 07-27-2010, 02:11 AM
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Where did you get the quotes from?
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Old 07-27-2010, 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

As for Brisson, lauded by whom? As shown recently in other cable threads here (also referencing patent info) all has is done is add zobels which will do stuff all.

That is an gross over simplification of what he does. The zobels are merely part of the picture.

Lauded by whom? There are many audio manufacturers and recording studios that recommend and use his cables.

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Old 07-27-2010, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

So the standard you set for information is they can't be in it for profits. I understand you discounting Bil Low, Cardas and Bruce Brisson*,..even though Brisson's work is lauded his pricing is truly insane. However your lack of acknowledgement of Dunlavy, Wilson, Vandersteen, Marshiotto, Nudell, and their take on bi-wiring makes little sense to me.

*(Here's a guy who most likely knows as much or more about audio cables than most anyone in the world. He puts himself out-there for live scrutiny at shows. His white papers on his site are truly fascinating, and not pseudo-science, he sells DIY stuff that emulates his commercial work, he's recognized by his peers as the man, Monster is still riding on the work he did for them even though he left after just giving them a couple of designs, what gives him a bad name is that he sells $38,000 speaker cables, I say more power to him)

Good call, I love me some MIT's, even more when I tried the bi wires. Their IC's are even better. I didn't get great results with bi wired Audioquest, YMMV.

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No, I don't want people to accept my opinion or yours, I want them to listen for themselves.

That is not encouraged in here.

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Old 07-27-2010, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

A very wide range of industry designers acknowledge, discuss and utilize these effects, and I'll only list the most prominent. Dunlavy, Wilson, Vandersteen, Marshiotto, Colloms, Nudell, manufactures such as Westlake, Lipinski, B&W, JBL. Are you familiar with these individuals?

How about John Watkinson? Have you ever read any of his books?

Thanks

The bi wire detractors are about as likely to research the opinions of those you listed about as quickly as those you listed will bother to come in here and explain it to them.

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These effects of bi-wiring exist regardless of my inability to articulate them or your inability to recognize them.

The effects are akin to the differences between CD players, DAC's, amplifiers, etc, etc... Subtle but real.

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Old 07-27-2010, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

That is an gross over simplification of what he does. The zobels are merely part of the picture.

Bollocks. I addressed the zobel issue esp wrt the patents in another thread and so far, you nor anyone else has shown a scrap of engineering validity for what he purportedly does with cables.
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

Bollocks. I addressed the zobel issue esp wrt the patents in another thread and so far, you nor anyone else has shown a scrap of engineering validity for what he purportedly does with cables.


This doesn't address your claim that the networks are merely zobels. I have shown pictures proving otherwise. Once again...

http://www.mitcables.com/

Have you bothered to call MIT for an explanation of their networks? That might help keep you from misrepresenting them in here.

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Old 07-27-2010, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post

This doesn't address your claim that the networks are merely zobels. I have shown pictures proving otherwise. Once again...

http://www.mitcables.com/

Let's make it easy for everyone. Here's the picture:


Now, if they aren't zobels as per the patent (you did finally get around to reading the patent(s), right?), then kindly explain or sketch out what that is. I see resistors and capacitors surface mounted. You see what?

Quote:
Have you bothered to call MIT for an explanation of their networks? That might help keep you from misrepresenting them in here.

Why, they're pole of articulation! All that is is MIT's way of confounding the consumer rather than saying they're zobels. Now off to call Certs up to see if they'll tell me that Retsyn is a mixture of copper gluconate and cottonseed oil. Mmmmmmmm.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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Old 07-27-2010, 06:04 AM
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What is that thing supposed to do ?

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Old 07-27-2010, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

No, I don't want people to accept my opinion or yours, I want them to listen for themselves.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

That is the bottom line.

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Originally Posted by tesseract67 View Post


That is not encouraged in here.




Here is the thin about the "want them to listen" comment and the "pat on the back" comments afterwards.

If you are posting in an AV science forum stating that product X, Theory X improves SQ then you have step beyond listening and enjoying because you are then posting enjoyment as facts online (stop posting and just enjoy) because you need to validate with real data and real science. Opinion without those is 100% meaningless since generaly people are prone to huge exagerrations in audio conclusions. They are also prone to being completely wrong if they never have data behind any conclusions. They are average listeners, listening to changes in completely uncontrolled situations. There are more holes in their opinions then swiss cheese.

Listening and enjoying has ZERO to do with posting on an AV science forum. If people just want to listen and enjoy they can do that and never post an illogical opinion on any forum.

People are on an AV science forum in general to educate themselves on audio and to improve their setups , without science and data people are just wasting their time with mindless and foolish so called improvements.

So many people argue bi-wiring for years on end but they never learn that room treatments are more important or learn what speaker designs offer their room a better response. We have one guy on this thread that still does not understand the difference between bi-wiring and bi-amping, he goes on to post more showing he has no idea what an active design means. Its amazing that he thinks he has any audio knowledge at all but he is still posting

Do the right things first then we can go down the rabbit hole and explore the fantasy side of the audio world.

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Old 07-27-2010, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by fookoo_2010 View Post

You seem to have optimized whatever hardware you have with one amp channel per driver. So you cannot bi-wire, but then again why should you even attempt to? My bad solution would be for you to buy an AVR and try it - just kidding.

That post really made zero sense.

AVR or Pre/Pros are still required so you really are confused with you post "Buy an AVR".

Maybe I can try and clear your confusions. An active crossover design is really the ultimate "bi-amped" design. well really the ultimate "tri-amped" design since I have 3 drivers per speaker to control.

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Old 07-27-2010, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

Here is the thin about the "want them to listen" comment and the "pat on the back" comments afterwards.

If you are posting in an AV science forum stating that product X, Theory X improves SQ then you have step beyond listening and enjoying because you are then posting enjoyment as facts online (stop posting and just enjoy) because you need to validate with real data and real science. Opinion without those is 100% meaningless since generaly people are prone to huge exagerrations in audio conclusions. They are also prone to being completely wrong if they never have data behind any conclusions. They are average listeners, listening to changes in completely uncontrolled situations. There are more holes in their opinions then swiss cheese.

Listening and enjoying has ZERO to do with posting on an AV science forum. If people just want to listen and enjoy they can do that and never post an illogical opinion on any forum.

People are on an AV science forum in general to educate themselves on audio and to improve their setups , without science and data people are just wasting their time with mindless and foolish so called improvements.

So many people argue bi-wiring for years on end but they never learn that room treatments are more important or learn what speaker designs offer their room a better response. We have one guy on this thread that still does not understand the difference between bi-wiring and bi-amping, he goes on to post more showing he has no idea what an active design means. Its amazing that he thinks he has any audio knowledge at all but he is still posting

Do the right things first then we can go down the rabbit hole and explore the fantasy side of the audio world.


Penn,
I understand your point.

Two points of clarification;
I've attempted many times to make clear that placement and room treatments are off the chart more important than bi-wiring.
I don't care if x measures better than y, if y sounds better in my rig,... y it is.

Thanks

------------------------------------
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------------------------------------
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Penn,
I understand your point.

Two points of clarification;
I've attempted many times to make clear that placement and room treatments are off the chart more important than bi-wiring.
I don't care if x measures better than y, if y sounds better in my rig,... y it is.

Thanks

Thanks and good points. I also will pick Y if it sounds better then X even though X is more accurate.

If we both agree that room/placement/speakers themselves have such a huge impact then why are there more cable debates then room treatment debates? Hmmm......

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post


......why are their more cable debates then room treatment debates? Hmmm......

Well, fwiw,...imho what possibly may be the real reason is...................blah blah blah blah.......

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