How does a ring radiator tweeter work? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Can anyone explain how a ring radiator tweeter is made, and how it works?

Having never seen one in person, I would guess that the center pole piece does not move, but is surrounded by a ring that is driven by a conventional voice coil. What is the ring made of, and how do they get a large enough area moving to make it efficient at producing sound?
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post #2 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 12:33 PM
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Good question.... Tell you what, I've got some Rocket RS850s and a Bigfoot I'll sell you that use Vifa Ring Radiators....I'm thinking about maybe selling them in the next few weeks, you could by them and experiment.

Don't know how they work but they sound fantastic!
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post #3 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 12:37 PM
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from Wiki:

A dome tweeter is constructed by attaching a voice coil to a dome (made of woven fabric, thin metal or other suitable material), which is attached to the magnet or the top plate via a low compliance suspension. These tweeters typically do not have a frame or basket, but a simple front plate attached to the magnet assembly. Dome tweeters are categorized by their voice coil diameter, and range from 19 mm (0.75 in), through 38 mm (1.5 in). The overwhelming majority of dome tweeters presently used in hi-fi speakers are 25 mm (1 in) in diameter.

A variation is the ring radiator in which the 'suspension' of the cone or dome becomes the major radiating element. These tweeters have different directivity characteristics when compared to standard dome tweeters.
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post #4 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


A variation is the ring radiator in which the 'suspension' of the cone or dome becomes the major radiating element. These tweeters have different directivity characteristics when compared to standard dome tweeters.

I know allot about dome tweeters, but how do ring radiator tweeters make the suspension big enough to make sound efficiently? You need area to produce sound in quantity, even at high frequencies. What is the ring made of? Is it paper or cloth or rubber? I do not understand how they produce enough sound to reach the typical 90db at 1 watt efficiency down to below 2,000 hz.
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post #5 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

I know allot about dome tweeters, but how do ring radiator tweeters make the suspension big enough to make sound efficiently?

Pictures help?




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post #6 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Judging from that photo it looks like a double surround system with the voice coil attached where the two surrounds meet. Is that correct?
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post #7 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 03:31 PM
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I found this in less than 1 minute online.

http://www.tymphany.com/files/produc...04_Rev_1_0.pdf

"Dual Ring Radiator diaphragm, wave guide center plug." Both of these technologies are patented.

"ring radiators which generate a symmetric search-light-type narrow beam with greatly reduced sidelobes..."

The nipple in the middle is the phase-plug, it remains stationary. The voicecoil is under the pleat in the center of the ring,"
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post #8 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ifor View Post

"ring radiators which generate a symmetric search-light-type narrow beam with greatly reduced sidelobes..."

I want wide dispersion in a tweeter, not a narrow beam. Looks like the design might be smooth sounding, but it must generate allot of THD due to the bending nature of the surround tweeter. A rigid diamond or beryllium dome tweeter would give you pistonic action which would reproduce a sound wave more exactly than a bendy, rubber or fabric surround.

That said, I would like to actually hear one before making a real judgment. Do ring radiator speakers beam allot? I have heard complaints that the Polk speakers that use low end ring radiator tweeters do beam and have poor imaging qualities. The best speakers I have made have all been minimum diffraction wide angle point source loudspeakers using 1" domes combined with 5.25" cone midranges crossed over at 2,000 to 2,400hz, low enough to avoid beaming around the crossover point.
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post #9 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 04:54 PM
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The more serious ring radiators are the R-2900 series from Scan-Speak. I have three of them across my front in the theater. Sensitivity is 94.5 dB, and unlike the audible resonance in the Vifa, the peak is at a low 500 Hz on the Scan, putting it way out-of-band. The response is ruler-flat to 40 kHz, and very flat to 60 kHz. Off-axis response is uniform, and not as beamy as other ring radiators. There are lower priced Scan-Speak RR tweeters, but with a higher resonant frequency and power handling issues compared to the R-2900. I love my current front speaker, which I've had for seven years. They each use two 7" Scan-Speak Revelator woofers and the R-29 tweeter. We use Vifa in lots of our products, and they're great, but the Scans are a different animal.

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post #10 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 04:57 PM
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The Rocket RS850 uses a Vifa ring Radiator....looks just like the one pictures..it has superb imaging and a very nice sound....Search the Forum for people thoughts on it...there's even a few GTG's where it went against Swan's, Paradigm Studio 100's etc. As far as the Vifa Ringing problem I believe the crossover change to the RS850 from the standard 850 fixed the problem. I think you can buy the same driver at Parts Express.
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post #11 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

I want wide dispersion in a tweeter.

You sure about that? What you want is high directivity and ring radiators are known for this type of behavior. The Vifa XT series rings are an excellent tweeter for the money compared to domes of equal value and distortions of all orders have NO relation to the design basis whatsoever so don't let that be a limiting factor. Some of the newer, better and very highly regarded DIY designs are using the new SBAcoustics SB29 ring radiator which also has high sensitivity, power handling and very low distortion. Here's a link to the full independant measurments of the SB29 with graphs. Scroll down

http://zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/

Scroll through and read the comments section as well as the graphs from one of the most highly respected DIY speaker designers on the web. There's also info on the Vifa XTs as well as the very pricey Scans and SEAS units. Visit the DIY speakers and subs forum for more details on tweeter designs and the low down on what's good and what isn't.
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post #12 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

I want wide dispersion in a tweeter, not a narrow beam. Looks like the design might be smooth sounding, but it must generate allot of THD due to the bending nature of the surround tweeter. A rigid diamond or beryllium dome tweeter would give you pistonic action which would reproduce a sound wave more exactly than a bendy, rubber or fabric surround.

That said, I would like to actually hear one before making a real judgment. Do ring radiator speakers beam allot? I have heard complaints that the Polk speakers that use low end ring radiator tweeters do beam and have poor imaging qualities. The best speakers I have made have all been minimum diffraction wide angle point source loudspeakers using 1" domes combined with 5.25" cone midranges crossed over at 2,000 to 2,400hz, low enough to avoid beaming around the crossover point.


Ring radiators beam no more/no less then other dome designs. Some of the best tweeters used in speaker designs are ring radiators. Its more about the XO design then any dome choice. Using Polk designs as a reference for ring radiators isnt a good idea either since polk are simply low cost builds that never have high quality drivers in them.


If you actually want wide dispersion you need to stop worrying/learning about domes and start reading about ribbons or waveguide designs because those designs will offer the best on and off axis response throughout the tweeter bandwidth.

Mayhem, I want my SB29 with that waveguide build back!!!

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post #13 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow. This page has almost too much information.
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post #14 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

The more serious ring radiators are the R-2900 series from Scan-Speak. I have three of them across my front in the theater. Sensitivity is 94.5 dB, and unlike the audible resonance in the Vifa, the peak is at a low 500 Hz on the Scan, putting it way out-of-band.

What is the lowest crossover point this tweeter can be used with a 12db slope?
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post #15 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 06:05 PM
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More important than wide treble dispersion is UNIFORM treble off-axis. The 30-degree plot can't have peaks in it that are different (other than in amplitude) from 0-degree or 60-degree off-axis measurements. Some speakers that sound and measure great on-axis sound like hammered crap in a room where off-axis reflections also reach your ears.

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post #16 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

What is the lowest crossover point this tweeter can be used with a 12db slope?

That depends on how much you are willing to compromise power handling. It also depends on whether you're using a straight 12 dB slope, or one that an octave down changes to a steeper slope to enhance power handling. I'd have to speculate on how low you could go, so I won't.

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post #17 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

http://zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/

That's an interesting exercise, and I've bookmarked it to look closer later. He does state that the most expensive tweeter at $398 (the one I use) is not a good value. Actually, if you're like most audiophiles, you'll spend 4x as much to get something that sounds 25% better, and that's the case with this Scan-Speak driver. There are people who can't afford a Porsche GT2 (I'm one of them ) who would call it a bad value because there are cars at half the price that perform about as well. So, I guess if you can't tell the difference, there isn't one.

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post #18 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 08:14 PM
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I don't see your beef Paul. Not only can he tell the difference, but he says there is a difference. He admits there is a small incremental benefit, but the site is geared towards bang for the buck, so it's not surprising that the tweeter is not recommended. In fact, there are many suggestions of how vastly cheaper drivers come surprisingly close to the higher end drivers. This does not affect his credibility IMO.

You are essentially asking Consumer Reports to endorse a GT2! Not gonna happen and in fact, it's probably the wrong recommendation for 99% of the population. If you want one of those things (or top of the line San Speak driver), you don't need a recommendation.

BTW, I like my Seas Millennium tweeters!
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post #19 of 27 Old 06-30-2010, 09:44 PM - Thread Starter
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https://www.madisound.com/store/prod...oducts_id=8540

I like the looks, specs, and price of this tweeter.

SB-Acoustics SB29RDC-C000-4 Ring Dome tweeter
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post #20 of 27 Old 07-04-2010, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Scarpelli View Post

That's an interesting exercise, and I've bookmarked it to look closer later. He does state that the most expensive tweeter at $398 (the one I use) is not a good value. Actually, if you're like most audiophiles, you'll spend 4x as much to get something that sounds 25% better, and that's the case with this Scan-Speak driver. There are people who can't afford a Porsche GT2 (I'm one of them ) who would call it a bad value because there are cars at half the price that perform about as well. So, I guess if you can't tell the difference, there isn't one.




Zaph's site is great, he isnt doing measurements any more since he started designing his own drivers and speakers (selling them on madisound). Paul, if you ever want to have great driver discussions then HTguide.com/forum is where Zaph and many other experts hang out.

"Good Value" is extremely subjective. Heck, I just priced some $500 RAAL ribbons and almost bought them two weeks ago but backed out since I have too many projects and some other things going on now. Zaph's site is gear towards DIYers looking for the lowest cost performance. In the end the top tweeters have the best measurements and do have a great sound so if there is a no cost option there isnt any reasons not to pick them. How much better do they sound over the $69 SB29??? It depends on the build and XO. There isnt earth shattering differences IMO but when it comes to the last 2% we all have a different subjective conclusion of how different it is.

I still would pick $300 Neopro5i ribbons over all these tweeters!!!! I still want those RAALs though

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post #21 of 27 Old 07-04-2010, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

https://www.madisound.com/store/prod...oducts_id=8540

I like the looks, specs, and price of this tweeter.

SB-Acoustics SB29RDC-C000-4 Ring Dome tweeter

Its a good tweeter, although the Dayton RS28F is getting lots of attention the DIY world because if its price tag and its response down below 2KHz.

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post #22 of 27 Old 07-04-2010, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inky blacks View Post

Wow. This page has almost too much information.

Not for DIYers building speakers

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post #23 of 27 Old 07-05-2010, 02:58 PM
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Any way you look at it, 400$ for a single tweeter is pretty damn expensive and it's pretty hard to call it a good value...

An average tweeter goes for what, 15-30$? Expensive is what then, 50$? 100$? Even the SEAS Millennium and AirCirc tweeters are all close to 200$... The ScanSpeak doubles that at 400$ a pop... If you compare the figures of the three mentioned, the differences aren't huge by any stretch of imagination, so it gets harder and harder to recommend something costing 8-13 times the price of a regular tweeter as "having good value"... As mentioned, most Zaph designs will cost you something like 250-500$, so that said, spending 800$ for tweeters alone really does seem on the expensive side... http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/compare.html
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post #24 of 27 Old 07-07-2010, 05:39 PM
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Quote:


so that said, spending 800$ for tweeters alone really does seem on the expensive side

What about Comparing it to spending $8K on comercial speakers.

Three years ago I spent $300 in ribbon tweeters, $250 on woofers for a design. I have never matched that perfomance of those designs with lower cost domes.

"value" is really just a subjective term and its all relative $400 to some people is literally like $40 to others.

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post #25 of 27 Old 07-08-2010, 04:40 AM
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What about Comparing it to spending $8K on comercial speakers.

8k$ for 'comercial speakers', (whatever these are, pro speakers maybe?) isn't that expensive, serious speakers will easily cost you a magnitude more. Same goes for high end speakers, 8000$ isn't that expensive, some speakers cost 10x more... I know a guy who makes a billion dollars per year easily, he buys custom cars he gets hand built, he says nothing beats them for the value and at 100 million per car, he gets at least 2 or 3 built per year, just great value. In his backyard race track, he says that an Enzo lap time is around 1m49, where his custom cars do 1m48 and even 1m47, they are that fast, so this huge improvement you get easily warrants the price difference, they really have exceptional value. [/sarcasm]

I guess your definition of the word value varies with the individual.

41$ Dayton RS180, 5/5 value rating:
Quote:


This Parts Express woofer has an anodized aluminum cone and black phase plug. It gives this woofer stealth fighter looks, but it does have the performance to back it up. Respectable harmonic distortion for this price range, and a very clean sounding low end. The response curve is very smooth, but the breakup has twin peaks that may be harder to manage in the crossover depending on how high you cross over. The low price, build quality and level of performance put this driver near the top of the value chart. Tested October 2005.

325$ SS, 2.5/5 value rating:
Quote:


Comments: This is the new 18cm flagship Illuminator from Scan-Speak. It is a large excursion underhung neodymium motor design with low distortion and excellent build quality. There is a small hiccup in the response curve at 1200 Hz and a mild breakup between 3 and 4kHz. The frame design is particularly free flowing and begs to be installed in a dipole. Overall it's an excellent performer but unfortunately not quite up to the class leading (and cheaper) Revelator 18W8531G. Tested December 2008.

Scan-Speak 18W8531G 225$, 3.5 value rating:
Quote:


Comments: Exceptionally well engineered driver in all areas. Uses Scan Speak's proprietary slit cone construction to control breakup nodes. Strong and well ventilated frame. Very low harmonic distortion and smooth, extended frequency response. Lots of copper in the motor is reflected in the impedance curve and overall performance. Not a whole lot to complain about here except for the high price. Needs a slightly larger enclosure than one could hope for. Expensive, but much higher on the value scale than any other +$200 woofer. Tested June 2006.


Discussed SS 7100 tweeter:
Quote:


Scan-Speak 7000 ($398) - This driver is essentially the high end version of the XT25. Performance is indeed a small step up in all areas. Build quality is top notch with a thick metal flange that will never warp. Unfortunately, the price is ridiculous and value is low. Tested March 2008.

In context, looking at the figures, I don't quite see exactly why the SS should be said to be of high value either, as I said, it really didn't seem to warrant the 2x price over the 200$ tweeters, it doesn't look any better to me on those measurements (am I wrong?), and it costs twice as much...
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post #26 of 27 Old 11-28-2011, 03:50 PM
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Apparantly Kea Audio produces tweeters with a very stiff dome material and there is no surround, it is rather all one piece, the dome and the surround. They are saying somthing about bending waves and claim a very broad and even dispersion.
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post #27 of 27 Old 11-28-2011, 07:58 PM
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Well, I was shocked when I listened to a set of really high-end Polks that had the ring tweeters. They were VERY clear, without being shrill. Very defined. I really enjoyed music with them...I cannot recall the style/number, but maybe the RSi...and the newest version of the high-end Polk has an "M" at the end of it...so maybe RSiM.

Anyway, if you have an interest in ring tweeters, please listen to Polk's high-ends. I did not buy them probably only because I was looking for a built-in sub/tower style...AND the Polks were something like 4ohm or maybe 6 ohm speakers...and dd not match up with what I was trying to do.
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