TCA Pro 10 Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

Good post and I agree with it. Yes the Pro-10's are far from perfect, but as others have said they are the only speaker that I know of at this price point that has the big three.

Directivity
High sensitivity
High power handling


My only question was the sound quality and so far the reviews are positive. I think more reviews will help the matter and some good measurements would seal the deal for many.

What about all those PA speakers I've quoted earlier? lol There's a TON of similar designs out there. They're just labeled PA speakers and not HT speakers...

I'm guessing that what Penn finds quite annoying is people hyping the Pro10s with ridiculous comments such as "it has no distortion!", "It should be compared to this iconic 7000$ speaker because it's just that good!", "the (5$) horn it uses has no HOM!!!", etc... If there was less inaccurate things posted then he'd have to post much less...

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Yes the Pro-10's are far from perfect,

So what's imperfect about them? I read the thread and haven't really seen much comments adressing that... I'm a huge proponent of speakers aren't great because of the things they do well, but more in the absence of things they don't do so great... The other side of the coin is also very important.
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post #182 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

lol, can't get that "for the price" thing out of your comments, can you? Would they sound different for another price?

What I truly think you're trying to say is, "they probably(I haven't heard them) rock but there are other designs that, from a technical standpoint, have the POTENTIAL to sound better." And in that case, thanks for your constructive comments to the thread.

That is a good clarification of my post

I will buy them to hear them and measure them if that makes the mob a little happier?

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post #183 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

My gripe with buying them is that I now have 4ohm speakers that are a few dB more sensitive and I still run into upper bass spl loss at reference levels. I figure I would need at least 400w at 8ohms which would mean switching to yamaha pro amps and a pre-pro with balanced outputs.

Wow, how big is your room and what amp are you using now?

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CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
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post #184 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post

Yea, Yea...I think pointing out the science on this thread is fine...pages of it's flaws and the negatives about the design over and over "the horse is dead already" are not...especially from people who've never heard this particular speaker.

How many posts suggest "Its better then any speaker I have heard"?

How many posts talk about the science behind the design?

I think you would agree there isnt much balance. As for who has heard any speaker. How many waveguides have you heard as a basis for your very confident conclusions?

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post #185 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 10:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

What about all those PA speakers I've quoted earlier? lol There's a TON of similar designs out there. They're just labeled PA speakers and not HT speakers...

I'm guessing that what Penn finds quite annoying is people hyping the Pro10s with ridiculous comments such as "it has no distortion!", "It should be compared to this iconic 7000$ speaker because it's just that good!", "the (5$) horn it uses has no HOM!!!", etc... If there was less inaccurate things posted then he'd have to post much less...

So what's imperfect about them? I read the thread and haven't really seen much comments adressing that... I'm a huge proponent of speakers aren't great because of the things they do well, but more in the absence of things they don't do so great... The other side of the coin is also very important.

Let us know when you listen to these PA speakers and directly compare them with a set of PRO-10s. Until then, it's irrelevant to the purpose of this thread, and you're just blabbering.

If you want to discuss cheap PA speakers used for HT, revive an old thread or open a new thread- it's that easy.
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post #186 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 10:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

How many posts suggest "Its better then any speaker I have heard"?

How many waveguides have you heard as a basis for your very confident conclusions?

One would think the conclusion "it's better than any speaker I have heard" would not need to rely on hearing any waveguides at all- only hearing speakers they have... ever heard.

It's not that bold of a claim. You buy a set, compare them to what you own and have owned, then come to a conclusion. If you prefer your previous speakers you box them up and send the PRO-10s back to TCA.

At $350 a pop the burden of proof is on other, more expensive designs to prove that they are worth the increased costs. Since this may not be readily apparant to most, you have to dig up the science behind the design and post measurements to back the claims.

All the PRO-10 has to do for the purchaser is this: "I cost less and I sound as good or better. Satisfied?"
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post #187 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by LilGator View Post


One would think the conclusion "it's better than any speaker I have heard" would not need to rely on hearing any waveguides at all- only hearing speakers they have... ever heard.

It's not that bold of a claim. You buy a set, compare them to what you own and have owned, then come to a conclusion. If you prefer your previous speakers you box them up and send the PRO-10s back to TCA.

Yep. I listed what I own today and my comparison. Two of those are horn speakers so it's not like it's completely foreign to me. I got the pro10s on a lark since I was beta testing the 18.2... That's what I really was interested in. I liked my speakers that were there. I had no expectations going in, I was honestly just curious to hear whatCraig had created. And I'm thrilled with them. If I wasn't they would be in a box headed back to TCA. That's me, in my room, completely subjective. That's all I can say. They are staying in place. I'm happy to talk about them, and I am not a paid spokesman. And I would hope that this thread can be brought back on track.

Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...
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post #188 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Wow, how big is your room and what amp are you using now?

Room is small, amp is onkyo 805 (say 200-220w at 4ohms)

I like reference volume. I don't listen very often but I like to have the ability maybe 1-2 times a week.
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post #189 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

That is a good clarification of my post

I also read palms and tarot cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I will buy them to hear them and measure them if that makes the mob a little happier?

What mob?, we only have the torches to light our way.....

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post #190 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilGator View Post

One would think the conclusion "it's better than any speaker I have heard" would not need to rely on hearing any waveguides at all- only hearing speakers they have... ever heard.

It's not that bold of a claim. You buy a set, compare them to what you own and have owned, then come to a conclusion. If you prefer your previous speakers you box them up and send the PRO-10s back to TCA.

At $350 a pop the burden of proof is on other, more expensive designs to prove that they are worth the increased costs. Since this may not be readily apparant to most, you have to dig up the science behind the design and post measurements to back the claims.

All the PRO-10 has to do for the purchaser is this: "I cost less and I sound as good or better. Satisfied?"

There isnt any question about buying and being happy. Im not questioning any purchase either. I think they are very well priced and hopefully many get to enjoy them.

Its was only some of the more exagerrated comments that started happening from posts jumping the gun and starting comparisons to designs that are well out of their price range. It needed a reality check.

I 100% agree with your last statement.

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post #191 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by madpoet View Post

Yep. I listed what I own today and my comparison. Two of those are horn speakers so it's not like it's completely foreign to me. I got the pro10s on a lark since I was beta testing the 18.2... That's what I really was interested in. I liked my speakers that were there. I had no expectations going in, I was honestly just curious to hear whatCraig had created. And I'm thrilled with them. If I wasn't they would be in a box headed back to TCA. That's me, in my room, completely subjective. That's all I can say. They are staying in place. I'm happy to talk about them, and I am not a paid spokesman. And I would hope that this thread can be brought back on track.

so how do they blend with the 18.2? What horns did you have?

btw, I have not seen posts from you in a long time or equipment for sale (I think I have bought some audio stuff from you). Welcome back to AVS.

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post #192 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

so how do they blend with the 18.2? What horns did you have?

btw, I have not seen posts from you in a long time or equipment for sale (I think I have bought some audio stuff from you). Welcome back to AVS.

The problem is most good horn stuff is either DIY or expensive
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post #193 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 12:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by madpoet View Post

Yep. I listed what I own today and my comparison. Two of those are horn speakers so it's not like it's completely foreign to me. I got the pro10s on a lark since I was beta testing the 18.2... That's what I really was interested in. I liked my speakers that were there. I had no expectations going in, I was honestly just curious to hear whatCraig had created. And I'm thrilled with them. If I wasn't they would be in a box headed back to TCA. That's me, in my room, completely subjective. That's all I can say. They are staying in place. I'm happy to talk about them, and I am not a paid spokesman. And I would hope that this thread can be brought back on track.

Subjective???? This is called AVSCIENCE for petes sake. Why wheres all your measurements and graphs and pie charts to prove that the Pro-10's are any good. Subjective wont do for some on this forum dont you know. They require all sorts of proof thats why its called SCIENCE!!!!
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post #194 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Room is small, amp is onkyo 805 (say 200-220w at 4ohms)

I like reference volume. I don't listen very often but I like to have the ability maybe 1-2 times a week.

Most importantly, I think you need to make sure it is not a room acoustic issue that is causing your upper bass loss before dumping any money into amps or speakers. Assuming it's not a room issue, if your MLP is 9ft or less you should have adequate power, although you could come up short at reference level even at 200w. I'm a believer in big power for dynamic peaks since you really can't have too much headroom IMHO.

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post #195 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 02:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

My gripe with buying them is that I now have 4ohm speakers that are a few dB more sensitive and I still run into upper bass spl loss at reference levels. I figure I would need at least 400w at 8ohms which would mean switching to yamaha pro amps and a pre-pro with balanced outputs.

You do not have to have balanced outputs. I use a Behringer XP2000 with RCA inputs for my JTR T8 mains and a Nady XA1100 with XLR to RCA cable for my center. No problems pushing my JTR's.
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post #196 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 02:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandarf View Post

What about all those PA speakers I've quoted earlier? lol There's a TON of similar designs out there. They're just labeled PA speakers and not HT speakers...

I'm guessing that what Penn finds quite annoying is people hyping the Pro10s with ridiculous comments such as "it has no distortion!", "It should be compared to this iconic 7000$ speaker because it's just that good!", "the (5$) horn it uses has no HOM!!!", etc... If there was less inaccurate things posted then he'd have to post much less...


So what's imperfect about them? I read the thread and haven't really seen much comments adressing that... I'm a huge proponent of speakers aren't great because of the things they do well, but more in the absence of things they don't do so great... The other side of the coin is also very important.

Have you heard any of the cheap PA speakers in the cheap plastic boxes. I have heard several and they do not have the sound quality. The more expensive PA speakers from QSC and JBL Pro work well for HT duty, but they are more expensive than the Pro-10's.
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post #197 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 02:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

That is a good clarification of my post

I will buy them to hear them and measure them if that makes the mob a little happier?

Looking forward to some measurements. Will these be outside measurements so that there are no room influences?
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post #198 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post

You do not have to have balanced outputs. I use a Behringer XP2000 with RCA inputs for my JTR T8 mains and a Nady XA1100 with XLR to RCA cable for my center. No problems pushing my JTR's.

My ep2500 picked up TOO much hum/noise when I tried that.
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post #199 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by penngray View Post

How many waveguides have you heard as a basis for your very confident conclusions?


Well I've heard several from JBL Pro, Cerwin Vega, Peavy KLipsch THX ultra 2s and in my room I've had JBL 8340a and Klipsch RF82 and RC62...Ever been to the movies? Guess what they're almost alway HORNS (Waveguides)!

Almost Every horn I've heard I've found at least a little harsh ......no I haven't heard Geddes. (I also liked the Klipsch THX ultra 2..KL650 but too$$)

But seriously forget the horn debate....this is about speakers...it's going not only up against horns when I l isten but against everything I've ever heard...I want the detail of horns without the harshness..I want to listen for hours without fatigue and be impressed. I would pick these "hands down " over anything I've ever heard from Paradigm, B&W, Deftech, Klipsch RF, Rockets, probably even the KL650s. I have Paradigms and Rockets in house...Don't confuse me for a Newbie..however there's nothing wrong with being a newbie
I may not be an expert when it comes to DIY loudspeakers and horns (although I've built many subs and do have some knowledge of loudspeaker designs), I prefer to let my ears do the judging (speakers are made to listen to...right?) shouldn't they be the judge?

I'm very surprised I like these this much...but seriously....shouldn't this thread be about "HOW THEY SOUND" and not about who knows the most about Horns and why other horns and waveguide speakers that cost $1K will sound better? They should sound better..but personally I would bet many would find the difference isn't nearly enough to validate the higher cost.

I've lost a fair amount of money shipping back speakers to return them....I have no problems paying to return any speaker........it's by far one of the best speaker I've ever had in my movie room.
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post #200 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 03:44 PM
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Had a long chat with the bosshole himself and there is an outside chance my setup might end up in his hands and I might end up with a TCA setup... We will see.
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post #201 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Had a long chat with the bosshole himself and there is an outside chance my setup might end up in his hands and I might end up with a TCA setup... We will see.

Cool! I'm sure many are curious to find out how these two will compare...sooner or later it'll happen! I'm thinking "indoors" it'll be close...at least to reference.
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post #202 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 03:58 PM
 
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My ep2500 picked up TOO much hum/noise when I tried that.

It can take a little bit of work to get rid of ground loop hum. My rack is a set of adjustable shelves in a mechanical alcove off of my garage. The rack is right in front of one of my furnaces. The HVAC went out and it turned out to be the coil above this furnace. I had to pull all of my equipment, four pro amps, AVR (processor), HT amp, two MIC2200's, DVD player and QAM/ATM tuner and several other assorted things. When I put all of the equipment back in place I had a hum in all five of my speakers. I worked on cable placement and finally got rid of the hum. It took longer to get rid of the hum than it did to replace the equipment and connect up. Getting rid of ground hum can be frustrating, but it can be done.
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post #203 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 04:07 PM
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so how do they blend with the 18.2? What horns did you have?

btw, I have not seen posts from you in a long time or equipment for sale (I think I have bought some audio stuff from you). Welcome back to AVS.

Thanks penn, it has been a while. Here's what I've used in room directly comparing to the Pro10s:

Rocket 450s
Rocket 250MKIIs
XStatiks
Dahlquist DQ-12s
Klipsch Fortes
Inifinity Beta 50s
Klipsch RF-7s

No $5000 speakers, but some decent stuff. The two Klipsch are both horns obviously. The 18.2 is nice because it's effortless. I never hear it do anything but reproduce sound. I've got a nasty null in my room from 20hz down so I can't measure flat to 10 like some people can But with my EQ1 I have it flat to 20 now. It's bested my favorite sub, which is my DIY dual Rythmik 12" Sandbox sub. Unfortunately that sub is so freaking heavy it will never, ever leave my basement

Someday maybe I'll actually WATCH my projector...
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post #204 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Room is small, amp is onkyo 805 (say 200-220w at 4ohms)

I like reference volume. I don't listen very often but I like to have the ability maybe 1-2 times a week.

Are you sure that AVR can deliver 200 watts into 4 ohms? Why do you say that? It can not double down and it's 8 ohm rating is overrated. The good news you don't need that much power to play loud.
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post #205 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 06:19 PM
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Are you sure that AVR can deliver 200 watts into 4 ohms? Why do you say that? It can not double down and it's 8 ohm rating is overrated. The good news you don't need that much power to play loud.

I was tested that high x7 and that is why the 805 is a star vs the 806 and 807
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post #206 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 06:34 PM
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Madpoet- can you (or someone else reading this thread with the speakers) post any FR measurements of the Pro-10s? I was hoping with the excitement over these speakers that someone would have done it by now (if not hopefully penngray can & will do it soon, as he implied he might...thanks in advance

I'm extremely interested in seeing measurements, because I think new (ie different) speakers will almost always sound different to someone accustomed to their old speakers. IMHO the differences that are heard may be interpreted as better because they stand out (stronger reproduction of frequencies that were "missing" or more subdued in the older speakers), especially at first. I wonder how often that after continued listening (& acclimation) to the new setup, if listening to the old speaks would then allow the listener to hear the things 'missing' in the new speakers (those frequecies that were more emphasized by the older speakers). I know many people have said that things that originally seemed strong about certain speakers eventually became too distracting.

I think that's why it's important to some people to see a flat frequency response- because they trust measurements more than they do their own ears (at least in my case)...especially until acclimation occurs to the different sound. I like the idea of having a neutral speaker that has consistent levels of frequency reproduction across the intended range. (And that doesn't prevent me from EQing the final sound if I'm desiring a warmer sound for some low-level music listening that day, and then resetting to flat for an action movie later.)
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post #207 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Are you sure that AVR can deliver 200 watts into 4 ohms? Why do you say that? It can not double down and it's 8 ohm rating is overrated. The good news you don't need that much power to play loud.

This is just 2-channel, but the 805 delivered 270 watts/channel into 4 ohms in this bench test:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-5.html

-Max
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post #208 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 06:39 PM
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This is just 2-channel, but the 805 delivered 270 watts/channel into 4 ohms in this bench test:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-5.html

-Max

Im considering getting an acurus a200x3 if I switch to the pro-10's... just to give them a bit more juice and to try mccac (also sell the 805 and per pioneer)
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post #209 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 07:15 PM
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Maybe it's time to come out of lurking with a very long post looking for input. Hopefully that's OK in this thread as this is the commercial speaker I'm most intrigued by. Personally, I'm very interested in these because of our unusual living room arrangement and what I'm understanding about directivity. The small size of our living room combined with craptastic fireplace, door, & window placement designed before TVs has resulted in only one arrangement acceptable to the wife (I'll try to attach pics...and I really shouldn't blame her as I agree that my arrangement trying to get better sound wasn't really liveable). Basically, the sofa sits diagonally in one corner of our 16'x12' room, and our 'entertainment console' is in the opposite, directly facing the sofa, with large bookshelf mains each side of the plasma. I'm thinking--correct me experts if I'm wrong--that more directional waveguide speakers might sound significantly better in our room than more traditional speakers because of fewer early reflections when placed in this unusual diagonal arrangement (particularly in a room with fairly reflective surfaces and no acceptable way of hanging acoustical treatments that I can think of). I should note early on that I've never really liked 'PA sound' so if people think that any potential benefit of greater directivity in sound in our room would be made moot by sound that might be too harsh in a small reflective room please let me know. I do think it's possible that PA systems sound harsh to a lot of people simply because of the uncomfortable levels at which they are often performing, but it could also be something inherent with compression drivers- I just don't have enough experience with them. Our speakers play 2.1 music 95% of the time, often streaming last.fm at low levels in the background all day when I work from home (where a higher-sensitivity speaker might make an audible difference in dynamics at low volume? ...or really just a lower volume setting on the amp for the same output? Obviously I'm not an expert here...) But occasionally the wife and I like to open a bottle of wine, turn off the lights, and spend an evening cranking CDs (tracks like Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" or Holst's "Jupiter" from the Planets suite get played loud), and that's where I'd expect better speakers to really have a chance to shine. We sit about 12' from the speakers with a 100w/channel 5.1 receiver, so I don't think that higher-sensitivity speakers are absolutely required, but I am also intrigued by anecdotes like someone posted earlier that with these speakers you could hear the pages being turned in the sheet music. I'm thinking the only reason that could occur would be if the older speakers didn't reproduce that frequency range as well, or the newer speakers emphasized it, or the newer speakers are simply being listened to at higher levels (enabled more comfortably, perhaps, because they distort less?) Not sure I even want speakers that I'm going to be tempted to further damage my already weakened hearing with ...or that emphasize distracting noises not meant to be readily apparent in the recording. But I am always intrigued by comments about speakers 'revealing' recognizable sounds that others didn't.

It shouldn't be too hard to improve on our old Sony 3-ways. No, I have never been impressed by the sound. I've been dealing with it for far too long simply because I bought what I could afford 11 years ago to get a complete 5.1 HT started (they did at least sound better than comparably-priced HT systems they were selling at Best Buy & Circuit City, & there was nothing even close in price at local stereo shops). The plan was that front speakers would be the first thing I'd upgrade (followed by sub), but work just consumes me and I've never had the time to really get out and listen (I'm just now finally beginning to prioritize things in life beyond my enjoyable but time-consuming work). I've been intently researching in my free time for almost 3 weeks now high-value speakers that would sound better enough to even the wife's ears to justify replacing speakers that she notes are "working perfectly fine." I've been essentially paralyzed by the sheer volume of widely-varying recommendations for speakers in the roughly $1000 or less range (for the front 3). Lately I've been particularly intrigued by 2 ideas: Pro10s or making the time to build 3 Econowaves in the Parts Express cabinet. I'd really love to know how they would compare. I'm pretty sure I could build E-waves for roughly $600 for the front 3--or even an active, highly-tweakable set with a dcx2496 for $800--vs $1000 for these. But if these sounded as good--or even really close--I would go for them...mainly because a Pro10 on its side would actually fit under the TV in the console, and my wife would probably freak the F out if I had an E-wave sitting out in front (not a good thing after taking the time to build 3 big, probably hard-to-sell speakers). And of course if anyone really thinks the less-expensive PA speakers mentioned in this thread would also sound really good for music then I would look into those, but as I said I don't think I've ever heard sound from a PA system in a club that I've really enjoyed (again maybe just because of the uncomfortable level). I should probably note that I'm willing to (and probably will) EQ any speaker I get (I have a 7-band passive), but I'd prefer a high-value speaker worth investing in that has a relatively neutral/flat response to start with.

My wife thinks I should go for the much different and smaller Usher S520, and they do get good reviews for roughly the same price as E-waves would cost to build. Obviously the design goals are totally different, but if people who've heard the Pro10 think the Usher's would sound even CLOSE to as good--for MUSIC--then that's what I might do. Please remember with suggestions that anything I get will have to sound significantly better than the current speakers--preferably even to the wife's less finicky ears--or they'll probably go back. There are even some super-budget options right now that I'm somewhat intrigued by at their potentially super-value price point: the Infinity P362 or P162 (probably P162 due to size) or Polk RTi4's. These are available from authorized dealers right now 3 shipped for less than one Pro10. I could have matching rears and even an Emotiva amp for the same price or less than 3 Pro10s. If people who've heard these different speakers think that's a better value (sound close to as good as the others), then I'd of course be happy to spend less (the wife even more so Please keep in mind the potentially compromising room arrangement when making recommendations as to what you'd do in our situation.

Unfortunately none of these speakers I've been intrigued in after reading are sold locally. I would love to audition them in our room--and I wouldn't even be opposed to return shipping costs if they weren't outrageous (probably significant for 3 Pro10s)--but obviously I can't even do that with E-waves (UNLESS someone reading this and local to southern AZ is willing to let me gently borrow a pair they've built...that would truly be awesome). So I'd really love input on this from people who've heard some of the speakers I'm considering- and even better some FR measurements. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would thank the poster tremendously for those. I'm looking forward to all of your input and thanks in advance.
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post #210 of 1916 Old 08-03-2010, 07:15 PM
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I had a nice converstaion with Craig today. Very informative. Impressed me. So much so, I have 3 Pro10s comming - 2 verticals and 1 horizontal.
Now, the agonizing wait.
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