Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 198 - AVS Forum
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post #5911 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Fair enough, there are high-end speakers that genuinely try to be full-range. Though at the super high-end of audiophilia, the low-frequencies often get separated back out into their own modules, and for good reason, optimal speaker location for the mids and highs is unlikely to also be optimal location for the lower frequencies to be produced.
Absolutely true.
But we werent talking about full range speakers but rather speakers that reach the "feel" range. It isn't just bass that can produce that. Ever been next to a speaker that was playing so loud that it made your skin crawl? Thats what I'm talking about.
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post #5912 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by 89grand View Post
I'll have to find them again. I believe even Dennis Murphy found this to be true. I'm not saying they do some frequencies better, I'm saying they have better tonal balance.

The very best of the 22's measure a little better than the 52's. But the 22's are all over the place, while the 52's (and center) are more consistent. So it's impossible to make any blanket statement. I'm not sure why the quality control on the tweeters used in the 52's and center is tighter than for the 22's--they look like the same tweet to me. Perhaps they are sourced from different factories, and the precision of the magnetic fluid application varies accordingly. Just guessing.
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post #5913 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Dark Matter View Post
Thanks; I will see if I can find some evaluations of this setup online.
The designer Andrew Jones stated - that you can place the center channel vertical for left and right speakers.
The center channels have about 10 hz less bass response. The BS22 has the better bass.

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post #5914 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
The designer Andrew Jones stated - that you can place the center channel vertical for left and right speakers.
The center channels have about 10 hz less bass response. The BS22 has the better bass.
That's good to know; thanks for the info.
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post #5915 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Absolutely true.
But we werent talking about full range speakers but rather speakers that reach the "feel" range. It isn't just bass that can produce that. Ever been next to a speaker that was playing so loud that it made your skin crawl? Thats what I'm talking about.
Let's be honest, this "feel" term isn't terribly helpful because it's so nondescript. I don't think the OP was using it as a synonym for "epically loud," remember he wasn't sure he needed a real sub because he didn't want to disturb the neighbors.

And even if that is what he meant, the Pioneers should be capable of going to hearing damaging levels with enough amp power, the only constraint there is their somewhat lower sensitivity which will require somewhat more power.
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post #5916 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
The very best of the 22's measure a little better than the 52's. But the 22's are all over the place, while the 52's (and center) are more consistent. So it's impossible to make any blanket statement. I'm not sure why the quality control on the tweeters used in the 52's and center is tighter than for the 22's--they look like the same tweet to me. Perhaps they are sourced from different factories, and the precision of the magnetic fluid application varies accordingly. Just guessing.

Have you tested the first series center, the C-21? I have the 5.0 first series and that center is impressive to me, but that is just me listening to it with movies and music. I would be curious how the C-21 stacks up against the C-22 and BS-22, since the C-21 has 2 larger drivers and handles more power.
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post #5917 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post

And even if that is what he meant, the Pioneers should be capable of going to hearing damaging levels with enough amp power, the only constraint there is their somewhat lower sensitivity which will require somewhat more power.
Somewhat lower sensitivity? I would argue very low sensitivity. The speakers are very musical and I love their sound, but I had to move them upstairs out of my theater room to make room for some more efficient speakers. I will be keeping them though.
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post #5918 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
The very best of the 22's measure a little better than the 52's. But the 22's are all over the place, while the 52's (and center) are more consistent. So it's impossible to make any blanket statement. I'm not sure why the quality control on the tweeters used in the 52's and center is tighter than for the 22's--they look like the same tweet to me. Perhaps they are sourced from different factories, and the precision of the magnetic fluid application varies accordingly. Just guessing.
The 22's all over the place? What exactly do you mean by that? I've read in countless threads, and from expert reviews that these bookshelf speakers are often comparable to $400-$500 speakers. I own the FS52's and have debated whether or not I should replace them with the 22's to save some money, save space, and just because I've read these things rock. But maybe the towers are the better speaker?
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post #5919 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 12:22 PM
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I prefer the 22s. If it wasn't for the towers looking better than stands, I'd have the 22s as fronts too
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post #5920 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
The center channels have about 10 hz less bass response. The BS22 has the better bass.
Strange considering the C22 has 2 mid/woofers and the BS22 only has 1.
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post #5921 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 01:27 PM
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I placed my order for a pair of the Affordable Accuracy modded BS22's a few weeks ago, and Dennis is supposed to ship them today.


Looking forward to receiving them as a bedroom pair of speakers. I don't have the non-modded BS22.

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post #5922 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
The 22's all over the place? What exactly do you mean by that? I've read in countless threads, and from expert reviews that these bookshelf speakers are often comparable to $400-$500 speakers. I own the FS52's and have debated whether or not I should replace them with the 22's to save some money, save space, and just because I've read these things rock. But maybe the towers are the better speaker?
You own the towers, can you really resell used towers for enough to save money by switching to the bookshelf speakers?

Why would a bookshelf on a stand save space over a tower?

The differences between the towers and the bookshelf speakers are almost by definition going to be modest.

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post #5923 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Strange considering the C22 has 2 mid/woofers and the BS22 only has 1.
Different port tuning...

The BS22 has lower bass extension... but the C22 is capable of more output above the port tuning b/c of the 2 woofers...
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post #5924 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post
Strange considering the C22 has 2 mid/woofers and the BS22 only has 1.
Not so strange--two woofers won't give you more bass extension per se. Just more power handling. And in order to preserve the same box tuning when you switch from one woofer to two, you have to double the volume of the cabinet. The center channel cabinet isn't twice as big as the 22's. Specifically, the center cabinet tunes to 80 Hz. The 22 cabinet tunes to 70 Hz.
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post #5925 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
Have you tested the first series center, the C-21? I have the 5.0 first series and that center is impressive to me, but that is just me listening to it with movies and music. I would be curious how the C-21 stacks up against the C-22 and BS-22, since the C-21 has 2 larger drivers and handles more power.
I haven't worked with any of the speakers from the first series.
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post #5926 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
The 22's all over the place? What exactly do you mean by that? I've read in countless threads, and from expert reviews that these bookshelf speakers are often comparable to $400-$500 speakers. I own the FS52's and have debated whether or not I should replace them with the 22's to save some money, save space, and just because I've read these things rock. But maybe the towers are the better speaker?
The 22's are real bargains. But they're not comparable to $400 - $500 speakers, at least not any that are worth that price. The response variations in the 22's occur around 5 kHz. Some measure with a peak in that region, others with a smooth but shelved down response, and others with a fairly severe dip. the latter does not occur very frequently. All of the tweeters have a peak at 15 khz, but not anything that will bother most adult ears.
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post #5927 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
I haven't worked with any of the speakers from the first series.
Where are you located? I would offer up mine if you would be interested in doing some testing. Let me know. I am in Utah.
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post #5928 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nikwasi View Post
t

Yes, I have FS52s front and rear and that configuration works very well for me. I do hate speaker stands and wall mounts won't work in my HT space. Using four towers solved my placement issues and they sound great in 5.1 surround. The key is to add a strong, articulate subwoofer. It really makes all the difference.
What are you using for your seating? Do you have pics of your setup with the 52's in the fronts and the rears? I'd love to see them. I thought about trying that but my main seating area is a sectional that is about 30+ inches high. I figured I couldn't place them in a way that wouldn't be a waste so I never tried. But, if I see something from someone else that might work I might rethink that.

As it is, I picked up two 52's (from Walmart for $90 total on a pricing mistake), the CS22 (for $67), and two pairs of 22's ($110 on Amazon).

I took my original 22's back to Walmart and reordered with this sale because it was quite a difference in price. I would have liked to reordered the center channel but was past the return period from Tiger Direct. Still, $267 for a 7.1 setup (if I keep all) or $208 for a 5.1 setup isn't too bad...
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post #5929 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 06:10 PM
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How frequently are these on sale at Amazon? Hesitated too long and they were gone this morning. Interested in towers, bookshelves and center channel.
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post #5930 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
Where are you located? I would offer up mine if you would be interested in doing some testing. Let me know. I am in Utah.

Well, there's Utah, and then there's Washington, D.C. Different concepts. Way different zip codes. Too bad--I would like to see what the first ones were like. Thanks for the offer.
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Well, there's Utah, and then there's Washington, D.C. Different concepts. Way different zip codes. Too bad--I would like to see what the first ones were like. Thanks for the offer.
Well, it just so happens I will be in DC (Arlington to be exact) next week Monday through Friday. I also have status with Delta so I get 2 free checked bags. I could probably manage the center C-21 in one bag and then a BS-21 in with my clothes, as long as they don't make my bags too heavy. How long would you need the speakers for? Are you still interested in testing them?
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post #5932 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 08:43 PM
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Well, it just so happens I will be in DC (Arlington to be exact) next week Monday through Friday. I also have status with Delta so I get 2 free checked bags. I could probably manage the center C-21 in one bag and then a BS-21 in with my clothes, as long as they don't make my bags too heavy. How long would you need the speakers for? Are you still interested in testing them?
Hmmm. I think lugging two of those puppies through airports would be a bit much for you. One might be feasible, so it just comes down to which makes the most sense, the monitor or the center. I better do some research. I'll get back to you. Thanks very much for even thinking of doing this. I'm about 15-20 minutes from Arlington, and I would only need an hour or so to do all of the measurements.
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post #5933 of 6094 Old 08-13-2014, 09:34 PM
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Hmmm. I think lugging two of those puppies through airports would be a bit much for you. One might be feasible, so it just comes down to which makes the most sense, the monitor or the center. I better do some research. I'll get back to you. Thanks very much for even thinking of doing this. I'm about 15-20 minutes from Arlington, and I would only need an hour or so to do all of the measurements.
I just checked and the monitor weighs only 8 lbs and the center weighs 16 lbs. I can easily get both of these to DC if you want me to. I have lots of bubble wrap and I could put clothes around them too. If you insist on only one, I recommend the center, since it has dual 5.25" woofers and is rated at 130W which is quite a bit better than the C-22, on paper anyway. Let me know what you think bud. I really enjoy these speakers for music. In fact, I just bought a used JVC avr and powered sub both for 40$ to use with the pioneers since they got replaced with Klipsch in my theater room.
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post #5934 of 6094 Old 08-14-2014, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Warner2Bruce View Post
What are you using for your seating? Do you have pics of your setup with the 52's in the fronts and the rears? I'd love to see them. I thought about trying that but my main seating area is a sectional that is about 30+ inches high. I figured I couldn't place them in a way that wouldn't be a waste so I never tried. But, if I see something from someone else that might work I might rethink that.
I took a couple of photos but they're non-descript and make the space look larger than it is. My camera isn't the best for indoor shots. Sorry.

The room is 11x15 and the main seat is a settee sofa. My front line is pretty typical: L/R mains at either side of an AV stand that holds my TV, AVR, etc. with the sub in a corner behind the FL speaker. The fronts are elevated 6 inches to get them to ear level. My FS52 rears are situated about 2.5 feet behind the sofa near, but not too close, to the corners. That puts them approx. 3 feet to the left and right of the sofa. The rears are elevated by about 10" on makeshift platforms but I would like to try them a few inches higher.

I've only had this setup for two months, so it's still a work in progress. I hope this helps in some way but I'm afraid it doesn't.
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post #5935 of 6094 Old 08-14-2014, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
I just checked and the monitor weighs only 8 lbs and the center weighs 16 lbs. I can easily get both of these to DC if you want me to. I have lots of bubble wrap and I could put clothes around them too. If you insist on only one, I recommend the center, since it has dual 5.25" woofers and is rated at 130W which is quite a bit better than the C-22, on paper anyway. Let me know what you think bud. I really enjoy these speakers for music. In fact, I just bought a used JVC avr and powered sub both for 40$ to use with the pioneers since they got replaced with Klipsch in my theater room.

I guess the center is more interest, since it might be capable of deeper bass response than the BS 22 monitor, and could serve as both a L,R, and C.
The issue is whether there are enough new ones out there to make a revised version worthwhile, and what the usual street cost is for the stock unit.
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post #5936 of 6094 Old 08-14-2014, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
I guess the center is more interest, since it might be capable of deeper bass response than the BS 22 monitor, and could serve as both a L,R, and C.
The issue is whether there are enough new ones out there to make a revised version worthwhile, and what the usual street cost is for the stock unit.
This is what HT Labs says about the series (1) C-21 center channel, measured -3 db at 81 hz

The SP-C21’s listening-window response measures +1.35/–3.88 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. An average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +0.98/–4.18 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3-dB point is at 81 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 62 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 6.31 ohms at 8.1 kHz and a phase angle of –39.38 degrees at 3.4 kHz.

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post #5937 of 6094 Old 08-14-2014, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
This is what HT Labs says about the series (1) C-21 center channel, measured -3 db at 81 hz

The SP-C21’s listening-window response measures +1.35/–3.88 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. An average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +0.98/–4.18 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3-dB point is at 81 Hz, and the –6-dB point is at 62 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 6.31 ohms at 8.1 kHz and a phase angle of –39.38 degrees at 3.4 kHz.

Thanks. Looks like the bass response is pretty limited. And both New Egg and Amazon are quoting a full price of $199, with very limited availability. I think I better just focus on the the newer 22 series.
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post #5938 of 6094 Old 08-14-2014, 12:21 PM
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But look at how the dropoff is so much steeper on the C22 vs. the C21 after the -3db point. (green lines on the graphs)
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures
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post #5939 of 6094 Old 08-14-2014, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
But look at how the dropoff is so much steeper on the C22 vs. the C21 after the -3db point. (green lines on the graphs)
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures
But for me the relevant comparison is between the BS22 and the C21. I was trying to find something that had deeper bass than the 22 for music. I don't much care about the bass response of the center channel when used as a center--there will be a sub in play anyhow. I was hoping the C21 would go deeper than the BS 22 and could be used as an MTM L & R for music. But its Fs is higher than the BS 22's.
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