Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 199 - AVS Forum
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post #5941 of 6037 Old 08-14-2014, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
But look at how the dropoff is so much steeper on the C22 vs. the C21 after the -3db point. (green lines on the graphs)
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures
http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures
The second link is for the SP-BS41-LR , the larger 1st gen bookshelf speaker.
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post #5942 of 6037 Old 08-14-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BuddTX View Post
The second link is for the SP-BS41-LR , the larger 1st gen bookshelf speaker.

Yea, along with the C21 center, which is the green line on the graph like I posted earlier
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post #5943 of 6037 Old 08-14-2014, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Nikwasi View Post
I took a couple of photos but they're non-descript and make the space look larger than it is. My camera isn't the best for indoor shots. Sorry.

The room is 11x15 and the main seat is a settee sofa. My front line is pretty typical: L/R mains at either side of an AV stand that holds my TV, AVR, etc. with the sub in a corner behind the FL speaker. The fronts are elevated 6 inches to get them to ear level. My FS52 rears are situated about 2.5 feet behind the sofa near, but not too close, to the corners. That puts them approx. 3 feet to the left and right of the sofa. The rears are elevated by about 10" on makeshift platforms but I would like to try them a few inches higher.

I've only had this setup for two months, so it's still a work in progress. I hope this helps in some way but I'm afraid it doesn't.
What are you using to elevate the 52 fronts six inches?
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post #5944 of 6037 Old 08-14-2014, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Warner2Bruce View Post
What are you using to elevate the 52 fronts six inches?
Dunno how he done his, but I just made a 6'' box and filled it with sand and formica'd it
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post #5945 of 6037 Old 08-14-2014, 05:04 PM
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What are you using to elevate the 52 fronts six inches?
I use these. They're made of concrete but made to look like flagstones, sort of. They happen to match my carpet well so they don't look bad. The depth of these blocks is roughly 3" so I stack 2 under each speaker. I like the fact that they are weighty (25 lbs. each) to provide a stable base, and inexpensive.
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post #5946 of 6037 Old 08-14-2014, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wdeydwondrer View Post
Dunno how he done his, but I just made a 6'' box and filled it with sand and formica'd it
Good idea! I would try that but I don't even have the DIY skills to build a decent box.

Today at Lowe's I picked up two 15" black iron plant stands that I plan to use as improvised risers for my rear surround FS52s. But first I need to find something to place between stand and speaker base to add stability ... stout plywood or butcher block, perhaps. If that doesn't work, I'll just set plants on them, heheh. They were clearance priced @ $6.99 so WTH.
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post #5947 of 6037 Old 08-14-2014, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
Yea, along with the C21 center, which is the green line on the graph like I posted earlier
Mgrotel,


Respectfully, I thought you were comparing the C22 vs the C21, the 1 gen and 2nd gen Center Channel speakers, and not the BS41.


BTY, I have 4 of C21 speakers (bought them on sale for 49.99 each!), and they make some awesome Left and Right speakers.


(Not all 4 at the same time, one for left and one for right, but I do not see why you couldn't use two for the left and two for the right!)
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post #5948 of 6037 Old 08-14-2014, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddTX View Post
Mgrotel,


Respectfully, I thought you were comparing the C22 vs the C21, the 1 gen and 2nd gen Center Channel speakers, and not the BS41.
I absolutely, 100% was comparing the C21 vs the C22, both centers. In the BS-41 link, the green line on the graph is the C21 curve and the narrative under the graph discusses the C21 speaker. Did you read the link and look at the graph and narrative?
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post #5949 of 6037 Old 08-14-2014, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
I absolutely, 100% was comparing the C21 vs the C22, both centers. In the BS-41 link, the green line on the graph is the C21 curve and the narrative under the graph discusses the C21 speaker. Did you read the link and look at the graph and narrative?
Thanks for sharing the links. I have a pair of BS41s gathering dust in a closet. Think I'll drag one out and test it as a center speaker, because why not? I already know the 41s can hold their own as mains.
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post #5950 of 6037 Old 08-14-2014, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post
I absolutely, 100% was comparing the C21 vs the C22, both centers. In the BS-41 link, the green line on the graph is the C21 curve and the narrative under the graph discusses the C21 speaker. Did you read the link and look at the graph and narrative?

I understand now, I just read the title of the article, and like you observed, I did not read the detail in the graph.


Sorry, I was just trying to be helpful, did not want you to make a decision on wrong data, but you were looking at the RIGHT data!


(Good thing I said "respectfully!)
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post #5951 of 6037 Old 08-14-2014, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BuddTX View Post
I understand now, I just read the title of the article, and like you observed, I did not read the detail in the graph.


Sorry, I was just trying to be helpful, did not want you to make a decision on wrong data, but you were looking at the RIGHT data!


(Good thing I said "respectfully!)
Glad we are on the same page
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post #5952 of 6037 Old 08-15-2014, 07:08 AM
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I ordered the floor standers, bookshelves, and center to replace some old Kefs. Wow, what a difference. Loving them so far after one day.
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Perhaps I misremembered.

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post #5953 of 6037 Old 08-15-2014, 08:44 PM
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Picked up a pair of the bookshelf speakers during the recent sale. Just set them up, sound pretty good, but wow, are those woofers tiny! They almost look like a joke, wonder why AJ went with such small ones? They produce solid content well past 60hz as best I can tell, which seems like some sort of acoustic miracle...
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post #5954 of 6037 Old 08-15-2014, 10:24 PM
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Have any of you tried one of these free standing TV mounts? I ordered one today, and I hope it will enable me to place my C22 center on the top shelf my AV stand underneath the TV. Doing so would place my center one foot closer to ear level, move my TV up to a more comfortable viewing level (I think) and free up some space on my very crowded stand. The company (AVX) offers a 45-day return policy in case it doesn't work out.
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post #5955 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Picked up a pair of the bookshelf speakers during the recent sale. Just set them up, sound pretty good, but wow, are those woofers tiny! They almost look like a joke, wonder why AJ went with such small ones? They produce solid content well past 60hz as best I can tell, which seems like some sort of acoustic miracle...
Because they are selling them for $60.
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post #5956 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by coli View Post
Because they are selling them for $60.
Fair enough, I wonder what the marginal cost of more normal-size woofers would be, the cabinet could certainly accommodate them. But the mid/lower frequency performance seems solid, presumably as a function of cabinet volume and the port.
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post #5957 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by niccolo View Post
Fair enough, I wonder what the marginal cost of more normal-size woofers would be, the cabinet could certainly accommodate them. But the mid/lower frequency performance seems solid, presumably as a function of cabinet volume and the port.
The stock woofer, which probably costs Pioneer maybe $4, outperforms just about any other 4" driver I've tried. It's all a matter of doing the math, I guess. I don't know whether Andrew was responsible for the box tuning and/or driver selection, but the bass extension and impact is just silly good. When I played Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man, which starts with a crash from the bass drums, at the Capital Audio Fest, the crowd reaction was a mixture of laughter, jaw dropping jaws, and trips up to the speakers to make sure I didn't have the bug guys playing.

If they had increased the woofer size to 5.5", the cabinet size would also have gone up, and there goes the budget.
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post #5958 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
The stock woofer, which probably costs Pioneer maybe $4, outperforms just about any other 4" driver I've tried. It's all a matter of doing the math, I guess. I don't know whether Andrew was responsible for the box tuning and/or driver selection, but the bass extension and impact is just silly good. When I played Copeland's Fanfare for the Common Man, which starts with a crash from the bass drums, at the Capital Audio Fest, the crowd reaction was a mixture of laughter, jaw dropping jaws, and trips up to the speakers to make sure I didn't have the bug guys playing.

If they had increased the woofer size to 5.5", the cabinet size would also have gone up, and there goes the budget.
Agreed that the lower-end performance is pretty damn impressive for such a little woofer. And that designing them clearly involved juggling a host of variables. I'm still surprised that the chosen compromise didn't involve a larger woofer, and perhaps the same size cabinet, but unlike you, I have little technical expertise to bring to the table.

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post #5959 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 04:03 PM
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They could've easily fit a 5.25" woofer in the same cabinet and just increased the size of the port. Im sure they had their reasons not to.
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post #5960 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 04:05 PM
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Too bad Pioneer didn't continue and improve on the 4 series with a BS42. I have a pair of the BS41s and they sound damn good, though mine are tragically under utilized.
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post #5961 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 04:11 PM
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They could've easily fit a 5.25" woofer in the same cabinet and just increased the size of the port. Im sure they had their reasons not to.
Agreed. And given how unconventional their choice is, I'd love to know more about those reasons.
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post #5962 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 04:42 PM
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A good engineer thinks outside the box and does the best he can with what hes got. Something AJ is known for. Im sure he could explain but I doubt I'd understand.
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post #5963 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 05:00 PM
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They could've easily fit a 5.25" woofer in the same cabinet and just increased the size of the port. Im sure they had their reasons not to.
On the Youtube videos, Andrew Jones explains (if memory serves) that he designed the smaller, 2nd gen woofer, because of space considerations, and criticisms from some 1st gen AJ speakers.

AJ said he took the opportunity to re-design a smaller woofer that actually gave a better low frequency response than his 1st gen woofers.
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post #5964 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 05:35 PM
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They could've easily fit a 5.25" woofer in the same cabinet and just increased the size of the port. Im sure they had their reasons not to.


You would need larger cabinet volume to get a useful increase in bass reach. Futzing with the port would probably just help avoid too much mid bass boom. The 22's are limited by the tweeter, not the woofer.
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post #5965 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 06:06 PM
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The 22's are limited by the tweeter, not the woofer.
How so?
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post #5966 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 06:10 PM
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People complained, not me at all, but some did about how big the first series center is. I didn't mind at all but I guess it wouldn't fit in some center channel spaces on tv stands and whatnot. With the budget crowd already in mind for these speakers, they are inherently on a budget for entertainment centers as well.

I wonder if a guy could find a 5.25" sized woofer of the second series to swap into the first series cabinet. Center and bs-21.
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post #5967 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 06:13 PM
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You would need larger cabinet volume to get a useful increase in bass reach. Futzing with the port would probably just help avoid too much mid bass boom. The 22's are limited by the tweeter, not the woofer.
Interesting, given that so many other bookshelf speakers seem to have similar cabinet volume and yet employ larger drivers. But those other speakers don't necessarily extend lower, so I guess that's your point.

And agreed, based on my little listening so far, the tweeter does seem to be the primary limitation. Does make me appreciate the tweeters on my Focals! (As it should, given the price points, and the Focal tweeters are a little controversial anyway, a decent number of folks find them too bright.)

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post #5968 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 10:36 PM
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There's also the fact that these were designed as part of a home theater set, so a subwoofer is all but given. Pretty much makes them not need to handle things below the ~80hz range. There's already plenty of options that can go lower, but the rules kick in basically and they either get far larger or far more expensive.

As far as the tweeters, I have a set of bs22 from last year and a set now from this sale made in June14,,, the tweeters sound completely different. The earlier ones are FAR "brighter" or more pronounced in the upper range. The new ones are seriously laid back, which is alright for their use since they're on the computer desk now. Just something I found rather interesting since they're supposed to be the same.
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post #5969 of 6037 Old 08-16-2014, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
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There's also the fact that these were designed as part of a home theater set, so a subwoofer is all but given. Pretty much makes them not need to handle things below the ~80hz range. There's already plenty of options that can go lower, but the rules kick in basically and they either get far larger or far more expensive.

As far as the tweeters, I have a set of bs22 from last year and a set now from this sale made in June14,,, the tweeters sound completely different. The earlier ones are FAR "brighter" or more pronounced in the upper range. The new ones are seriously laid back, which is alright for their use since they're on the computer desk now. Just something I found rather interesting since they're supposed to be the same.
That's totally consistent with Dennis Murphy's observations on the variability of these tweeters.
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post #5970 of 6037 Old 08-17-2014, 04:44 AM
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On sale again @ HH Gregg.

Perhaps I misremembered.

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