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Old 04-14-2015, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
I have a BS-41, but I haven't tried swapping in the Vifa, mainly because I was afraid of damaging the mesh grill. You would need to cut a notch in the routing to let the negative terminal of the tweeter pass through. I'll try and find time today or tomorrow to do the swap and I'll report what I find. I'm sure it won't be perfect without a Xover mod, but it might make an improvement. We'll see.
That's awesome! I don't think the grill will be able to be reused since it sits in a channel molded in the tweeter itself. Do you use the Vifa D27TG-35/06? I'm guessing not since the cost is nowhere close to $11 but that's the only reference I could find.

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Old 04-14-2015, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by crakarjax View Post
That's awesome! I don't think the grill will be able to be reused since it sits in a channel molded in the tweeter itself. Do you use the Vifa D27TG-35/06? I'm guessing not since the cost is nowhere close to $11 but that's the only reference I could find.

Nope--it's this puppy: http://www.parts-express.com/tymphan...eter--264-1040
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Old 04-14-2015, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crakarjax View Post
That's awesome! I don't think the grill will be able to be reused since it sits in a channel molded in the tweeter itself. Do you use the Vifa D27TG-35/06? I'm guessing not since the cost is nowhere close to $11 but that's the only reference I could find.
OK. So I managed to get the grill off without damaging it, only to find that the baffle of the Vifa is too small to screw into the routing. But I did an ad hoc mounting and held everything together by replacing the grill just to get an idea of the before and after. A better candidate for a replacement tweeter might be the venerable Parts Express Dayton Silkie, which has an oversize baffle is cheap and a solid performer. Here's how the stock speaker measures (yes, there are tweeter issues):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3snvy706k...G-005.png?dl=0


And here's how the Vifa measures with no crossover mod.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ti1hpusaui...G-006.png?dl=0



No banana. If you put maybe a 3 ohm resister in series with the wire to the positive tweeter terminal, you might be able to get the treble sort of right, but there would still be peaks that would require a complete crossover mod to iron out.
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Old 04-14-2015, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
OK. So I managed to get the grill off without damaging it, only to find that the baffle of the Vifa is too small to screw into the routing. But I did an ad hoc mounting and held everything together by replacing the grill just to get an idea of the before and after. A better candidate for a replacement tweeter might be the venerable Parts Express Dayton Silkie, which has an oversize baffle is cheap and a solid performer. Here's how the stock speaker measures (yes, there are tweeter issues):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3snvy706k...G-005.png?dl=0


And here's how the Vifa measures with no crossover mod.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ti1hpusaui...G-006.png?dl=0



No banana. If you put maybe a 3 ohm resister in series with the wire to the positive tweeter terminal, you might be able to get the treble sort of right, but there would still be peaks that would require a complete crossover mod to iron out.
That's really cool... I actually have those dayton tweeters in a bookshelf kit that I put together years ago -- maybe I'll swap them in and see how they look. Do you have to calibrate for your mic with a reference speaker or something when recording to make those response curves? I'm wondering if my audyssey calibration mic will suffice...
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Old 04-14-2015, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by crakarjax View Post
That's really cool... I actually have those dayton tweeters in a bookshelf kit that I put together years ago -- maybe I'll swap them in and see how they look. Do you have to calibrate for your mic with a reference speaker or something when recording to make those response curves? I'm wondering if my audyssey calibration mic will suffice...
I use what is probably the best measurement system available--Praxis. It has a calibrated mic and shows you the inherent response of the speaker from about 200 Hz on up. Below that point, the measurements introduce room effects, and things get very bumpy. I cut the measurements off at 200 Hz to avoid confusion. I could never make much out of the Audyssey plots, and in general it's not a good idea to use any Audyssey-induced equalization above 200 Hz. It will just mess with the crossover integration and produce very unpredictable results. Audyssey can help with room bass modes, and I would restrict its use to the bass region.
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Old 04-15-2015, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
I use what is probably the best measurement system available--Praxis. It has a calibrated mic and shows you the inherent response of the speaker from about 200 Hz on up. Below that point, the measurements introduce room effects, and things get very bumpy. I cut the measurements off at 200 Hz to avoid confusion. I could never make much out of the Audyssey plots, and in general it's not a good idea to use any Audyssey-induced equalization above 200 Hz. It will just mess with the crossover integration and produce very unpredictable results. Audyssey can help with room bass modes, and I would restrict its use to the bass region.
Well I can't drop that kind of money on a calibration mic, even if I want to I guess I'll just throw them in and see if they sound ok as mains with some well-listened to music.

I'm not sure my receiver (TX-SR876) allows Audyssey equalization only below 200Hz but I'll look into it and give a listen if it does -- thanks for the tip! It's disappointing to hear though, as it shouldn't be too difficult to create a measured equalization that compensates for the frequency response of each speaker (although I'm not sure what crossover integration means), as long as you have enough frequency bins.
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Old 04-15-2015, 11:35 AM
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Only the newest versions of Audyssey do a good job with subwoofer frequencies.
You can (and should ) get a calibrated mic for <$100. Then you can get good measurements and know what needs to be improved:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...rew-setup.html

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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Old 04-16-2015, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Only the newest versions of Audyssey do a good job with subwoofer frequencies.
You can (and should ) get a calibrated mic for <$100. Then you can get good measurements and know what needs to be improved:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...rew-setup.html
Very cool, bookmarked that.

Turns out American Express is awesome; I purchased my BS41 set with my Amex in 2013 and just received a refund for the purchase price from Amex because they warranty all electronics purchases (and more) for 1 year after the mfg warranty runs out! Maybe I'll put that money toward a calibrated mic...

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Old 04-17-2015, 07:28 AM
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^crakarjax,

Be sure to download Jerry Austin's step by step guide on using REW with USB mic. It is a treasure trove of useful information for newbies who want to carry out an in room frequency sweep of their speakers and find ways to address sound quality issues.

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Old 04-22-2015, 06:20 PM
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Are Pioneer SP-FS52-LR's still getting good reviews these days? Looking to pair it with the following:

Denon AVR-E300 receiver
Pioneer SP-C22 center speaker
very old subwoofer

room size - 19ft by 23 ft (bonus room so carpet and regular drywall walls)
tv shows and movies only

Basically, the c22 center speaker is my only source of sound and while it's great for vocals, I need something more for for the rest of the sound.

Budget is around $200 for a pair so hoping the FS52's go on sale soon if they are still good.

Thanks
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Old 04-22-2015, 07:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bryn987 View Post
Are Pioneer SP-FS52-LR's still getting good reviews these days? Looking to pair it with the following:

Denon AVR-E300 receiver
Pioneer SP-C22 center speaker
very old subwoofer

room size - 19ft by 23 ft (bonus room so carpet and regular drywall walls)
tv shows and movies only

Basically, the c22 center speaker is my only source of sound and while it's great for vocals, I need something more for for the rest of the sound.

Budget is around $200 for a pair so hoping the FS52's go on sale soon if they are still good.

Thanks
Particularly since you already have the c22 I don't think you can beat the 52s for the price assuming you wait for a sale.
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Old 04-30-2015, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
OK. So I managed to get the grill off without damaging it, only to find that the baffle of the Vifa is too small to screw into the routing. But I did an ad hoc mounting and held everything together by replacing the grill just to get an idea of the before and after. A better candidate for a replacement tweeter might be the venerable Parts Express Dayton Silkie, which has an oversize baffle is cheap and a solid performer. Here's how the stock speaker measures (yes, there are tweeter issues):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3snvy706k...G-005.png?dl=0


And here's how the Vifa measures with no crossover mod.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ti1hpusaui...G-006.png?dl=0



No banana. If you put maybe a 3 ohm resister in series with the wire to the positive tweeter terminal, you might be able to get the treble sort of right, but there would still be peaks that would require a complete crossover mod to iron out.
Without knowing any of the other characteristic of the tweeter, for a random drop in replacement it looks to measure ok. I've seen much more expensive speakers have similar rising rates out of the tweeter.
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Old 05-02-2015, 12:06 AM
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Say mates, around what price range would you say someone had to enter in order to "upgrade" from these bookshelves?

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Old 05-02-2015, 08:37 AM
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The FS51 pair has been on sale recently for $100... Really considering buying a pair just for the tweeters and then having fun with the spare parts. I could save a few bucks by grabbing the Dayton tweeters for $40, but taking things apart is so much more fun!

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Old 05-02-2015, 10:24 AM
 
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Say mates, around what price range would you say someone had to enter in order to "upgrade" from these bookshelves?
Impossible to say. Sound is subjective. Sales happen. Lots of used speakers for sale.
Start a new thread and post what you don't like about the Pioneers and what your budget is. You will get all kinds of suggestions.
Ultimately only you can decide what will be an upgrade.
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Old 05-02-2015, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Kingcarcas View Post
Say mates, around what price range would you say someone had to enter in order to "upgrade" from these bookshelves?
For me, it only cost $100 a pair to get that clear upgrade sound. So overall money is not a guarantee.

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Old 05-17-2015, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post
OK. So I managed to get the grill off without damaging it, only to find that the baffle of the Vifa is too small to screw into the routing. But I did an ad hoc mounting and held everything together by replacing the grill just to get an idea of the before and after. A better candidate for a replacement tweeter might be the venerable Parts Express Dayton Silkie, which has an oversize baffle is cheap and a solid performer. Here's how the stock speaker measures (yes, there are tweeter issues):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o3snvy706k...G-005.png?dl=0


And here's how the Vifa measures with no crossover mod.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ti1hpusaui...G-006.png?dl=0



No banana. If you put maybe a 3 ohm resister in series with the wire to the positive tweeter terminal, you might be able to get the treble sort of right, but there would still be peaks that would require a complete crossover mod to iron out.
I don't know how the addition of resistance would affect the tweeter ouput (flat reduction in amplitude? linear?) but it *looks* like the treble response would be improved with a resistor vs stock just based on that dip at 10k.

I dropped in a Vifa that you tested, although I've only received one of the two that I ordered. Here are some pics of the process, and if I had a calibrated mic I'd play with adding a resistor but for now the one I installed sounds pretty balanced as a surround.

I took the baffle off first in order to use the stock BS41 baffle.


I had to enlarge the screw openings on the front to allow the Vifa screws to recess in the baffle, and also had to shave down the rear posts so the speaker would sit flush.


The screws were too long so I nipped them down.


Then after assembling the old baffle to the Vifa driver, it installed just as stock in the enclosure, grille and all.

Last edited by crakarjax; 05-17-2015 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 05-17-2015, 05:40 PM
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You're more skilled and patient than I was. Nice camera, btw. Really clean pics.
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Old 05-17-2015, 08:11 PM
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Thanks, that's the nexus 6 camera -- I hardly use my DSLR anymore. Amazing what they've fit in such a small package.
I'm wondering how the difference in baffle curvature effects the frequency response of the driver? Is there literature on this or is it more art than science?
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Old 05-18-2015, 01:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by crakarjax View Post
Thanks, that's the nexus 6 camera -- I hardly use my DSLR anymore. Amazing what they've fit in such a small package.
I'm wondering how the difference in baffle curvature effects the frequency response of the driver? Is there literature on this or is it more art than science?
Nice job with the speakers.
I thought Nexus 6 was the model of Replicant that gave Decker fits in Blade Runner.
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Old 05-18-2015, 03:21 PM
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Nice job with the speakers.
I thought Nexus 6 was the model of Replicant that gave Decker fits in Blade Runner.
And it runs the Android operating system... go figure!
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