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post #6331 of 6345 Old 08-10-2016, 04:01 PM
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Dolby Atmos add-ons ,on sale for a few more fours for $79.00

https://meh.com/?clickid=QHJQswW3hSg...kkz3ERDyWqU0k0
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post #6332 of 6345 Old 09-07-2016, 08:51 PM
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Is it true that for the FS52s and the BS22s, they have excellent vertical tweeter dispersion and therefore, the tweeters don't necessarily have to be aligned with the listener's ear? E.g. what if they were a few inches lower?

Also, I was wondering, and I know the manual says 2ft away from walls, but what would an absolute recommended minimum distance from the wall be for the FS52 vs the BS22? I'm assuming they would be different, since one is a tower and the other a bookshelf.
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post #6333 of 6345 Old 09-07-2016, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strands View Post
Is it true that for the FS52s and the BS22s, they have excellent vertical tweeter dispersion and therefore, the tweeters don't necessarily have to be aligned with the listener's ear? E.g. what if they were a few inches lower?

Also, I was wondering, and I know the manual says 2ft away from walls, but what would an absolute recommended minimum distance from the wall be for the FS52 vs the BS22? I'm assuming they would be different, since one is a tower and the other a bookshelf.
I had the 22's for a year and found the opposite to be true good horizontal bad vertical. Make sure they are lined up with your ears.
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post #6334 of 6345 Old 09-07-2016, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ted Sheckler View Post
I had the 22's for a year and found the opposite to be true good horizontal bad vertical. Make sure they are lined up with your ears.
Thanks. I'll keep this in mind if I do get them.
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post #6335 of 6345 Old 09-07-2016, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Strands View Post
...the tweeters ... aligned with the listener's ear? E.g. what if they were a few inches lower?
You don't mention how far the ear is from the tweeter, but at any reasonable distance the angle it would be "off axis" should be negligible.

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... recommended minimum distance from the wall be for the FS52 vs the BS22? I'm assuming they would be different, since one is a tower and the other a bookshelf.
The form factor is irrelevant. The main problem with speakers being near walls is that the reflected sound waves can be close enough to the direct sound waves to interfere with each other. There are ways to mitigate this problem aside from trying to keep all speakers far from walls (which is often impractical), including one simple and two less simple approaches:
  1. Point the speakers somewhat toward the main listening position, particularly your front left and right speakers. Not only does this give more on-axis direct sound, but avoids the reflection from a wall behind the speaker from being reflected in exactly the same direction as the direct sound.
  2. Disperse the reflected sound. Having a flat wall surface leads to reflected waves travelling in one direction, which is usually undesirable. A sufficiently uneven surface will break up the reflected waves and send then in various directions.
  3. Absorb the reflected sound. Absorbent material in the area of the wall where sound would reflect toward the listener will reduce the reflected sound waves and therefore the amount they can interfere.

There are many approximations and generalisations in this advice, as the pattern of three-dimensional sound waves of widely varying frequency from multiple non-point sources in your space is very complex and specific. In any case you should point (aka. "toe in") your front left and right speakers. Room treatments for dispersion and absorption require more effort in planning, testing, measuring, adjusting, etc. and are discussed extensively in the appropriate forums. As always, let your ear be your guide.
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post #6336 of 6345 Old 09-07-2016, 09:51 PM
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The form factor is irrelevant. The main problem with speakers being near walls is that the reflected sound waves can be close enough to the direct sound waves to interfere with each other.
The reason I had that assumption was from reading this: http://www.hifivision.com/articles-g...ose-guide.html (refer to section titled "Placement & Décor"). But thanks for your tips. I plan to toe them in.

By the way, does anyone have any idea which of the following would make the best setup when paired with a sub in a small room, and that would be used mainly for movies and games?
1. 4 FS52s
2. 4 BS22s
3. 2 FS52s + 2 BS22s

Thanks.

Last edited by Strands; 09-08-2016 at 12:57 AM.
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post #6337 of 6345 Old 09-08-2016, 08:37 AM
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Physics discussion warning! Skip to the end of my first response for the easy answer.

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Originally Posted by Strands View Post
The reason I had that assumption was from reading this: http://www.hifivision.com/articles-g...ose-guide.html (refer to section titled "Placement & Décor").
That advice is perfectly good and is a separate consideration from interference with reflected waves, dealing with conditions for amplifying standing waves - frequencies which the room makes things much louder. These frequencies are usually called "room modes".

In short, having the source of your sound - the speaker driver - at the edge of the space makes it easier to create standing waves. You can also amplify room modes by having the driver half way between walls, a third of the way, a quarter, etc. The best placement of the driver is usually a different prime fraction of the distance between surfaces, e.g. 3/7 along the width, 2/5 along the length and 2/7 between the floor and ceiling. Good luck making that work for multiple drivers.

This is a rare example of a simple calculation you can do based on the relationship between the speed of sound, the distance(s) between walls and the frequency. Standing waves can occur at half, whole, double, triple, etc. wavelengths with the significance usually decreasing with each multiple. Conditions for quarter wavelengths are more complicated (involving openings).

For example my long and narrow home theater is 4 m wide. The speed of sound is about 343 m/s. 343 m/s divided by 4 m is about 86 /s, i.e. 86 Hz. This means that I can have standing waves around 43 Hz, 86 Hz, 172 Hz, etc. You can do similar calculations for length and height.

What you find is that for almost all listening spaces, these frequencies are bass which are very near of beyond the lowest end of most speakers and are within the range of subwoofers, hence the complications with and advantages of proper subwoofer location.

Your receiver's auto-tuning or your manual calibration will often substantially take care of room modes above the subwoofer crossover (e.g. 80 Hz for THX), but correction for sub-bass frequencies is usually a tricky manual task (discussed in detail in other forums).

In conclusion, don't worry about your speakers being somewhat close to the wall, but do position any subwoofer carefully.

Quote:
By the way, does anyone have any idea which of the following would make the best setup when paired with a sub in a small room, and that would be used mainly for movies and games?
1. 4 FS52s
2. 4 BS22s
3. 2 FS52s + 2 BS22s
Remember that it's 4 (or 2) BS52s + 4 (or 2) speaker stands when considering cost and that a floorstanding speaker is effectively a bookshelf speaker with an excellent stand and better sound. Therefore you should use floorstanding speakers wherever possible and affordable.

BTW, I note and approve of the lack of center speaker. While my bedroom theater includes the enormous SP-C21, my home and office theaters both have a phantom center. This works really well and is most convenient when the speakers and space are properly calibrated.
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post #6338 of 6345 Old 09-08-2016, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AJCxZ0 View Post
Remember that it's 4 (or 2) BS52s + 4 (or 2) speaker stands when considering cost and that a floorstanding speaker is effectively a bookshelf speaker with an excellent stand and better sound. Therefore you should use floorstanding speakers wherever possible and affordable.

BTW, I note and approve of the lack of center speaker. While my bedroom theater includes the enormous SP-C21, my home and office theaters both have a phantom center. This works really well and is most convenient when the speakers and space are properly calibrated.
Thanks for the note. Would (the back of) a couch get in the way of the relatively short FS52s if I were to place them about 110° each?
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post #6339 of 6345 Old 09-08-2016, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Strands View Post
Thanks for the note.
Welcome.

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Would (the back of) a couch get in the way of the relatively short FS52s if I were to place them about 110° each?
I doubt it will make much difference unless your couch has a high back and is unusually absorbent and/or reflective. You should aim [pun intended] to have at least a clear path from the tweeters to the listeners' ears. Generally, if you can see the active drivers from your listening position then you should be getting all the useful direct sound.



Since spending others' money is easy, get another two SP-FS52s and make it a 7*.1 setup. That way you can have the surround speakers to the sides (which you can of course have with a 5.1 setup) and rear surrounds behind. Just be sure to leave enough money for at least a decent subwoofer or two... or three or four or...

*[Counting the phantom center so as not to confuse with a typical 6.1 configuration]
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post #6340 of 6345 Old 09-08-2016, 07:31 PM
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Okay, a few more questions before I take the plunge into an all-tower setup. I've read on some forums that if the rear port of a speaker is too close to the wall, plugging the port (with socks?) is recommended. Is this something that is recommended for my situation too? I'm afraid of getting overly bassy or boomy sounds in my setup.

Also, based on (http://realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm), I currently have my couch (listening position) about 4'3" from the back wall and 6' from the front. And I should mention that the floor is non-carpeted and therefore reflective [Edit: Ok, I think I'll get a shag to deal with this] . Any problems with using the FS52s for this setup? Like would they be too near to the listening position and would they be too boomy?

Thanks.

Last edited by Strands; 09-09-2016 at 10:44 AM.
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post #6341 of 6345 Old 09-08-2016, 07:49 PM
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Okay, one more question before I take the plunge into an all-tower setup.
Don't want to throw a monkeywrench into your plans, but instead of 4 (or 6) towers, why not take that money, which would be $500+ (unless you found a good deal somewhere), and just buy 2-3 nice ELACs up front, and basically anything at all for the backs (Daytons, or whatever else you can find cheap)? I may be in the minority, but spending the same on the fronts and backs seems like a waste of money to me.
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post #6342 of 6345 Old 09-09-2016, 11:55 AM
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Since I'm responsible for the all-floorstander advice...

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Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
... instead of 4 (or 6) towers, why not take that money, which would be $500+ (unless you found a good deal somewhere), and just buy 2-3 nice ELACs up front, and basically anything at all for the backs (Daytons, or whatever else you can find cheap)?
That's a good point for at least two reasons: deals and mixing brands.

No-one has explicitly mentioned that these speakers can and should be bought on sale, as the discounts tend to be substantial. As I recall it has been a while since a good deal was last mentioned here, which is not to say such deals have not been available. In any case, patience, finding deals and buying used remain good economic advice.

I should also mention that in my original advice I pointed out the cost comparison must include the cost of stands for bookshelf speakers. For the bargain price of these speakers, even cheap Sanus stands are a significant cost and add no value. A quick look on Amazon suggests a Sanus stand will cost at least half but mostly closer to the full $100 difference between the SP-BS22-LR and SP-FS52-LR.

As for Mr. Jones' Pioneer Elite or ELAC speakers with their concentric drivers, those would be at a higher budget level.

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I may be in the minority, but spending the same on the fronts and backs seems like a waste of money to me.
You are in the majority given the prevalence of floorstander fronts and bookshelf surrounds. There are good arguments against mixing and matching brands or different speaker families - voice matching, aesthetics, etc., but in this case of such low cost high value speakers there is little to be saved by doing so.

We're already saving him money by not mentioning the SP-T22A-LR.
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post #6343 of 6345 Old 09-09-2016, 12:31 PM
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You are in the majority given the prevalence of floorstander fronts and bookshelf surrounds. There are good arguments against mixing and matching brands or different speaker families - voice matching, aesthetics, etc., but in this case of such low cost high value speakers there is little to be saved by doing so.

We're already saving him money by not mentioning the SP-T22A-LR.

Well, it depends a lot on what price he can get the towers at ... on occasion they have been super cheap, but if going with standard prices, it will still be a bit pricey for him.

And yep, stands will add to the overall price, and if he wants fancy stands, maybe towers would make sense. But I was thinking more like the $42 Sanus stands (pair) off of Crutchfield.

A pair of those stands + a pair of BS22s (if found on a semi-sale) will be around the cost of a single FS52. And if he is okay with mixing brands, those stands + set of Daytons (or cheaper speakers) would be even less.

I'm not saying that is the best way for him to go, as it's all subjective, just that if it was me, I'd spend more on the fronts than backs. But I have no problem mixing brands.


As for ELACs... I haven't listened to them, but it could be a valid option for him even at his current budget.

A pair of Sanus BF31 $42 stands + ELAC Debut B6 = $325ish. The $175ish leftover could still get him a pair of stands + BS22s, or if he wanted to spluge a little ELAC B4/B5s for the surrounds (if he doesn't want to mix). Or maybe he could even get Daytons/cheapos for the backs, and maybe afford an ELAC center.

Now are the ELACs better than the FS52s? I haven't heard them, so can't say. Just throwing it out there as an option.

Last edited by Doe Doe; 09-09-2016 at 12:34 PM.
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post #6344 of 6345 Old 09-13-2016, 07:37 AM
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Thanks all, for your advice and suggestions.

I decided to order 4 FS52s and a C22. Can't wait for them to arrive, woot woot!
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post #6345 of 6345 Old 09-13-2016, 08:01 AM
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I decided to order 4 FS52s and a C22
Please report back here once you've had a chance to set up, calibrate and listen to some of your best demo material.

Start saving for that quality subwoofer.
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