Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 6024 Old 10-03-2010, 11:15 PM
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I was just at Best Buy and decided to pick up a pair of the BS21 bookshelves and the C21 center channel just because and for $170 for the set, I could easily find a use for them if I didn't like them.

I havent had time to listen to them yet but the finish and build quality is far better than anything even close to their price. They are also surprisingly heavy given their price. I'll update when I get them setup somewhere.
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post #62 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post

Nope. No better components in the BS-41... You will be happy with the floor standers, they put out a substantial more amount of bass...

If anyone has specific questions about the design feel free to post... I will make sure Andrew answers them...

Thanks,

Chris Walker

Chris, could you please find out if Andrew would recommend using the center channels vertically instead of horizontally? I was/am thinking of getting two and using them am 2.1 bedroom system. Thanks for all your help. I think its pretty awesome you are on this forum answering questions. Kudos.
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post #63 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 05:45 AM
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I am still trying to decide on the bs41 bookshelfs or the FS51 towers. I talked to my wife and she honestly doesn't care, lol. I know that technically the towers take up the same amount of room as a pair of bookshelfs on stands but I worry it will dominate the room it is in. We have little kids also which is why I was somewhat hesitant to get the bookshelfs. I am not crazy about the design of the towers either. For some reason the metal speaker grills look strange to me on the towers but quite normal on the bookshelfs. The looks aren't a deal breaker though as I could see either one in my living room. My plan is to get either one and the matching center and subwoofer.

I actually went back to BB last night (I think I have been there 4 times to audition speakers in this line ) to listen to the subwoofer. I will say that it is way underpriced. It holds it's own against my Energy V8 which is also an 8" subwoofer that cost me over double the price compared to the pioneer. It doesn't go as deep as my outlaw sub but then again that is a 10" subwoofer. It's almost like you should ad a minimum of $100-$200 to the price of each speaker in this line to really see the value you are getting compared to higher priced brands.
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post #64 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 06:30 AM
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i need to see/hear these for myself .. also a big factor is WAF (who i'm not sure will like the look ) ... if things seem really worth it need to see how to exchange my polk m60's for these
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post #65 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Neceo View Post

i need to see/hear these for myself .. also a big factor is WAF (who i'm not sure will like the look ) ... if things seem really worth it need to see how to exchange my polk m60's for these

Well I can tell you that I had the monitor 60's at one time and the Pioneer's sound better in my opinion. The main issue with the Pioneer's is the look (at least for me). I am not crazy about the metal speaker grills but at the same time they would be ideal if you have little kids (prevents the speakers from being damaged). I am still leaning towards the towers because I could pick them up at BB (along with the other speakers) and wouldn't have to worry about getting anything shipped to me.
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post #66 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 07:17 AM
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The floor standers are only 31-1/2" tall? they sure look a lot taller in the pic. I am so want to pick up a pr from bb, since I have some reward $, I can get the L+R and center for ~$200.
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post #67 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by YOTR View Post

Well I can tell you that I had the monitor 60's at one time and the Pioneer's sound better in my opinion. The main issue with the Pioneer's is the look (at least for me). I am not crazy about the metal speaker grills but at the same time they would be ideal if you have little kids (prevents the speakers from being damaged). I am still leaning towards the towers because I could pick them up at BB (along with the other speakers) and wouldn't have to worry about getting anything shipped to me.

cool thanks, will stop at BB to listen ... but yea look is an issue, especially for my wife. She will enjoy that they are smaller but the front end grill look she won't appreciate i'm sure.
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post #68 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardyc View Post

The floor standers are only 31-1/2" tall? they sure look a lot taller in the pic. I am so want to pick up a pr from bb, since I have some reward $, I can get the L+R and center for ~$200.

Yup, they are actually shorter than my Energy RC-30's (which are somewhat short to begin with).

As a previous poster stated, cost had to play a part in why BB is not carrying the larger BS41 bookshelf. If a consumer goes into BB and sees a pair of bookshelf's for $199 or towers for the same price (with more woofers, etc.), they will naturally purchase the floorstanders. I am sure it also had to do with the Pioneer bookshelf conflicting profit wise with another speaker brand as stated a few posts back. This way BB has a cheap Pioneer bookshelf ($89) and then the larger towers ($199) to seperate them. The large bookshelf would not have made sense at the same price as the towers. I almost think the best bang for the buck out of the entire line is the center channel. I still can't believe it's $79 bucks and it sounds great!
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post #69 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Neceo View Post

cool thanks, will stop at BB to listen ... but yea look is an issue, especially for my wife. She will enjoy that they are smaller but the front end grill look she won't appreciate i'm sure.

That's been my debate. The front grill looks great on the bookshelf's but strange on the towers. My wife doesn't care but she rarely looks at what I purchase. I will hear about it when they arrive, lol. Still though, it would be easier than messing with stands and blu tac to keep the speakers stable.
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post #70 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 08:28 AM
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Has anyone compared these with Polk m70s and cs2? If so, can you describe the differences?

The woofer size differential abd power ratings concern me a bit, but my sub handles everything below 80, so that might not be a factor...?
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post #71 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 08:34 AM
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The SW-8 looks like a "borrowed" design to me.... but with an entirely different driver.

It looks more than a little similar to the tSC ASW-8... I have one, and the dimensions look to be identical. Not only that, but the amp ratings are also identical, as is the layout of the amp.

The tSC ASW-8 was a clone of the Energy ESW-8 as far as any owners could tell (I owned the ESW-8 briefly and returned it to get the tSC sub for less $$)... lacking only the ribbed surround found on the ESW-8. Otherwise, the amp, driver material, and cabinet appeared to be the same (although different cabinet feet).
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post #72 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

The SW-8 looks like a "borrowed" design to me.

It looks more than a little similar to the tSC ASW-8... I have one, and the dimensions look to be identical. Not only that, but the amp ratings are also identical, as is the layout of the amp.

Interestingly enough... looking through the manual of the SW-8... there is a drawing of the sub that shows the surround of the woofer on the underside of the sub. The surround appears to be ribbed... something that is patented by Energy/Mirage.

The tSC ASW-8 was a clone of the Energy ESW-8 as far as any owners could tell (I owned the ESW-8 briefly and returned it to get the tSC sub for less $$)... lacking only the ribbed surround found on the ESW-8. Otherwise, the amp, driver material, and cabinet appeared to be the same (although different cabinet feet).

So, it seems like Pioneer took an existing budget sub design and put their name on it.


Very well could be. You make very good points and the similarities are definitely there. I have only compared the Pioneer to my Energy V8 that I currently own and I feel that it competes with it without a doubt. I haven't done a side by side comparison but for $140 bucks, I still feel like it's a good deal if you don't want to fork over $300 or more for a good sub (I payed over $300 when I purchased my V8 last year).
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post #73 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 09:33 AM
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Any reason why people aren't using the center speaker in stead of the big bookshelves? You can stand them upright can't you? Same specs but an extra 5.25" driver and 2db more efficient. Added bonus: You save $40 on a pair and you can buy them in singles... so you could buy the odd number - either 5 or 7 to go with your sub and complete your system... no extra speakers or anything.
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post #74 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by YOTR View Post

Very well could be. You make very good points and the similarities are definitely there. I have only compared the Pioneer to my Energy V8 that I currently own and I feel that it competes with it without a doubt. I haven't done a side by side comparison but for $140 bucks, I still feel like it's a good deal if you don't want to fork over $300 or more for a good sub (I payed over $300 when I purchased my V8 last year).

If it can really compete with the ESW-V8, then maybe the Pioneer sub is a different animal than the tSC ASW-8/Energy ESW-8, despite the eerily similar looks. But everything still points to it being a "clone" of the others.

I'd be interested to see what you thought if you compared them side by side...

I have the Mirage Prestige S8 (same as Energy ESW-V8), which I was lucky enough to get for $250... and it's a MUCH better sub than the ASW-8/ESW-8.... no comparison IMO.
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post #75 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by msmCutter View Post

Any reason why people aren't using the center speaker in stead of the big bookshelves? You can stand them upright can't you? Same specs but an extra 5.25" driver and 2db more efficient. Added bonus: You save $40 on a pair and you can buy them in singles... so you could buy the odd number - either 5 or 7 to go with your sub and complete your system... no extra speakers or anything.

From pretty much everything I've read... almost ANY MTM (excluding those with waveguide or controlled disperion tweeters) will perform better, with respect to off axis response, when oriented vertically...

So unless this speaker has a poor vertical off axis response when laying horizontally... I would think it should be just fine when oriented vertically...

Anyone else have thoughts on this?...
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post #76 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 09:48 AM
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It it can really compete with the ESW-V8, then maybe the Pioneer sub is a different animal despite the eerily similar looks.

I have the Mirage Prestige S8 (same as Energy ESW-V8), which I was lucky enough to get for $250... and it's a MUCH better sub than the tSC ASW-8/Energy ESW-8.... no comparison IMO.

I would like to do a side by side on the sub but from what I heard, it was very impressive. There is obviously still a chance that the Energy would own it but I haven't been able to compare them. I was tempted to pick up the sub for the WAF factor. At the same time though, I have a brand new Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Compact that I can use if I decide to get the pioneer's.

I was looking at RC mini's, PSB alpha B1's, etc. but feel like the Pioneer bookshelfs/towers have to be considered now. The BS21's (smaller bookshelf) easily competed against the more expensive Alpha B1's when I listened to them at BB. I also considered just buying another pair of RC-30's for the other room but honestly the pioneer towers were impressive especially for the price.

Decisions, decisions .

I normally shy away from lower cost speakers (or thought I needed to spend more to get quality) but these speakers have me very interested. It doesn't seem like Pioneer cut corners when it came to sound which is what is really important.
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post #77 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by YOTR View Post

I would like to do a side by side on the sub but from what I heard, it was very impressive. There is obviously still a chance that the Energy would own it but I haven't been able to compare them. I was tempted to pick up the sub for the WAF factor. At the same time though, I have a brand new Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Compact that I can use if I decide to get the pioneer's.

I was looking at RC mini's, PSB alpha B1's, etc. but feel like the Pioneer bookshelfs/towers have to be considered now. The BS21's (smaller bookshelf) easily competed against the more expensive Alpha B1's when I listened to them at BB. I also considered just buying another pair of RC-30's for the other room but honestly the pioneer towers were impressive especially for the price.

Decisions, decisions .

I normally shy away from lower cost speakers (or thought I needed to spend more to get quality) but these speakers have me very interested. It doesn't seem like Pioneer cut corners when it came to sound which is what is really important.

With all the talk about this Pioneer line... I'm going to audition them soon as well. I don't expect them to be the best I've heard... but, given the early feedback, they appear to be much better than their price suggests, and worth checking out as an inexpensive option.

And I know what you mean about low cost speakers... It's hard to imagine they can be good at that price... but maybe it just goes to show how overpriced so much of today's audio really is. While almost every magazine review would lead us to believe that so many of the speakers out there are "a real bargain for the price," or really "perform beyond their price class," it's starting to make me think that they are actually performing as they should for that cost... and the more expensive stuff they are outperforming is really just way overpriced. In other words... I don't really believe anymore that much of the audio we buy is really the amazing bargain so many claim it to be.
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post #78 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 10:09 AM
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And I know what you mean about low cost speakers... It's hard to imagine they can be good at that price... but maybe it just goes to show how overpriced so much of today's audio really is. While almost every magazine review would lead us to believe that so many of the speakers out there are "a real bargain for the price," or really "perform beyond their price class," it's starting to make me think that they are actually performing as they should for that cost... and the more expensive stuff they are outperforming is really just way overpriced. In other words... I don't really believe anymore that much of the audio we buy is really the amazing bargain so many claim it to be.

Prob right about that
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post #79 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 11:13 AM
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With all the talk about this Pioneer line... I'm going to audition them soon as well. I don't expect them to be the best I've heard... but, given the early feedback, they appear to be much better than their price suggests, and worth checking out as an inexpensive option.

And I know what you mean about low cost speakers... It's hard to imagine they can be good at that price... but maybe it just goes to show how overpriced so much of today's audio really is. While almost every magazine review would lead us to believe that so many of the speakers out there are "a real bargain for the price," or really "perform beyond their price class," it's starting to make me think that they are actually performing as they should for that cost... and the more expensive stuff they are outperforming is really just way overpriced. In other words... I don't really believe anymore that much of the audio we buy is really the amazing bargain so many claim it to be.


I agree with you completely. I almost find myself trying to find what is wrong with these speakers. I normally don't shop at BB much and would normally never consider buying speakers from them (overpriced and very limited when it comes to selection). However, Andrew Jones and Pioneer seem to have turned a corner offering a budget speaker that performs as well as ones costing quite a bit more. For example in my opinion, the smaller bookshelf ($89 a pair retail) held it's own against the PSB Alpha that I had awhile back. I remembered that speaker very well as it is still one of the my favorite budget models (the Alpha retails for $279). I am not saying that the Pioneer destroyed it but the fact that it reminded of this model and held it's own is saying something (especially with the price difference). I got the same feeling comparing the pioneer towers to my energy RC-30's. The 30's were better but honestly I didn't feel like they floored the pioneer's. When you throw in the price difference, the pioneer's are a bargain.
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post #80 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 11:25 AM
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I agree with you completely. I almost find myself trying to find what is wrong with these speakers.

Do proper controlled listening tests and Get them measured. Yolu will know the truth, your excitement is effecting your conclusions.

99% of the time you are getting what you paid for, it just takes some people longer to realize that

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #81 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 11:32 AM
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Do proper controlled listening tests and Get them measured. Yolu will know the truth, your excitement is effecting your conclusions.

99% of the time you are getting what you paid for, it just takes some people longer to realize that

Good point. I am not an audiophile though so if I don't hear much of a difference, I am fine with that (plus my wallet doesn't feel the pain ).
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post #82 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 11:33 AM
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Oh, don't get me wrong. Its great to have < $100 speakers remotely sounding good period!!

It is not "open-minded" to reject knowledge - Bob Lee
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post #83 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 11:52 AM
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Oh, don't get me wrong. Its great to have < $100 speakers remotely sounding good period!!

Very true .
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post #84 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 01:46 PM
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I've had some time to listen to the BS21 ($89) and the C21 ($79) combo that I picked up yesterday for fun. I personally like the look of the speakers and the finish and build quality is miles better than similarly priced speakers.

On to the sound. I have them setup in my spare bedroom/game room to a Yamaha 663 receiver along with a small HSU STF-2 subwoofer. They are actually quite good for HT purposes in a smaller setting with decent mids, inoffensive highs (usually a killer in this category), and the bass without the sub is passable if a bit one-note in nature. For music, they are OK and definitely passable for background music and non-serious listening. The fundamentals are all there but it's the nuances that are missing but at this price point, I can hardly fault the speakers.

Considering you could get a 5.0 system for under $500, I'd say Pioneer has a winner on their hands if they can get enough exposure.
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post #85 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 02:07 PM
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I've had some time to listen to the BS21 ($89) and the C21 ($79) combo that I picked up yesterday for fun. I personally like the look of the speakers and the finish and build quality is miles better than similarly priced speakers.

On to the sound. I have them setup in my spare bedroom/game room to a Yamaha 663 receiver along with a small HSU STF-2 subwoofer. They are actually quite good for HT purposes in a smaller setting with decent mids, inoffensive highs (usually a killer in this category), and the bass without the sub is passable if a bit one-note in nature. For music, they are OK and definitely passable for background music and non-serious listening. The fundamentals are all there but it's the nuances that are missing but at this price point, I can hardly fault the speakers.

Considering you could get a 5.0 system for under $500, I'd say Pioneer has a winner on their hands if they can get enough exposure.

Just curious... what other speakers do you own or have you listened to extensively?

Just trying to get a gauge for how these would stack up against those other speakers.
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post #86 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 04:50 PM
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Just curious... what other speakers do you own or have you listened to extensively?

Just trying to get a gauge for how these would stack up against those other speakers.

In my main room, I have Triad Silver Monitors x3 for the front and a JL Audio F112. My bedroom has Quad 21L2's and L Center. My desktop has ERA D4's with a Decco.

In the past I've had Aerial LR3's, Monitor Audio RS6's, Triad Silver LCR's, B&W CM1's, KEF IQ7's, and Paradigm Studio 60 v.3's.
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The fundamentals are all there but it's the nuances that are missing but at this price point, I can hardly fault the speakers.

They lack good resolution - and I knew they would, before I hooked
them up. However, I knew there was something there. This is a good
starter system for a restricted budget. I can't figure out why they
chose that sub, to put with their system.

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Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #88 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by YOTR View Post

For example in my opinion, the smaller bookshelf ($89 a pair retail) held it's own against the PSB Alpha that I had awhile back. I remembered that speaker very well as it is still one of the my favorite budget models (the Alpha retails for $279). I am not saying that the Pioneer destroyed it but the fact that it reminded of this model and held it's own is saying something (especially with the price difference).

I agree with you. The differences are not major - however, there was
enough for me to prefer the Pioneer.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #89 of 6024 Old 10-04-2010, 05:37 PM
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They lack good resolution - and I knew they would, before I hooked
them up. However, I knew there was something there. This is a good
starter system for a restricted budget. I can't figure out why they
chose that sub, to put with there system.

Could I ping the learned members here for some advice? I am in the process of building my first HT system and after going through many threads in these forums over the last 15 days to say the least I am confused.

To make things simple I have decided on a pioneer 1120K receiver. Also my living room is huge (30'*20') and if I want a true 5.1 system the rears will have to be floor standing. I am struggling between a 3.1 vs 5.1 system. I definitely want the front speakers to be standing, need a good center and also a sub. My budget unfortunately is maybe 700-800 bucks. The pioneers fit in very nicely in this range. I am also evaluating polk monitor 70's and klipsch rf10's.

Could anyone please give me some advice on what a good 3.1 or 5.1 should include? My personal sense is that having integrated speakers in one big box would be more economical than buying the stuff piecemeal.

Thanks in advance
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Originally Posted by earthling121 View Post

Could I ping the learned members here for some advice? I am in the process of building my first HT system and after going through many threads in these forums over the last 15 days to say the least I am confused.

To make things simple I have decided on a pioneer 1120K receiver. Also my living room is huge (30'*20') and if I want a true 5.1 system the rears will have to be floor standing. I am struggling between a 3.1 vs 5.1 system. I definitely want the front speakers to be standing, need a good center and also a sub. My budget unfortunately is maybe 700-800 bucks. The pioneers fit in very nicely in this range. I am also evaluating polk monitor 70's and klipsch rf10's.

Could anyone please give me some advice on what a good 3.1 or 5.1 should include? My personal sense is that having integrated speakers in one big box would be more economical than buying the stuff piecemeal.

Thanks in advance

For 3.1 and in your room, I would go with the Pioneer towers and the
Pioneer center. This would make it under $300. Check with The sub
people - HSU (hsuresearch) or SVS (svsound) for the sub. This may
cost you $500 - you have a big room. You can then save up - if your
budget is taken, for your surrounds. The small Pioneer shelf speakers
will not work in your room. Tower speakers will work for surrounds, if
you do not block their sound. You can get the larger shelf speakers
at Pioneer online.

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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PAR-200, Pioneer VSX-30
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