Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 5701 Old 10-04-2010, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by earthling121 View Post

Could I ping the learned members here for some advice? I am in the process of building my first HT system and after going through many threads in these forums over the last 15 days to say the least I am confused.

To make things simple I have decided on a pioneer 1120K receiver. Also my living room is huge (30'*20') and if I want a true 5.1 system the rears will have to be floor standing. I am struggling between a 3.1 vs 5.1 system. I definitely want the front speakers to be standing, need a good center and also a sub. My budget unfortunately is maybe 700-800 bucks. The pioneers fit in very nicely in this range. I am also evaluating polk monitor 70's and klipsch rf10's.

Could anyone please give me some advice on what a good 3.1 or 5.1 should include? My personal sense is that having integrated speakers in one big box would be more economical than buying the stuff piecemeal.

Thanks in advance

The following setup would be just within your budget:

4 x Pioneer SP-FS51-LR
1 x Pioneer SP-C21
1 x Lava LSP12 w/15% off AVS member code AVS Lava Thread

As you've already admitted, that is a very large room, so realistic expectations are in order. However, a modest system like this should still be quite enjoyable. A 2nd sub or much larger sub could be something to save for in the future.
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post #92 of 5701 Old 10-04-2010, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by vraxoin View Post

The following setup would be just within your budget:

4 x Pioneer SP-FS51-LR (LR)
1 x Pioneer SP-C21 (C LS RS)
1 x Lava LSP12 (SUB) w/15% off AVS member code AVS Lava Thread

As you've already admitted, that is a very large room, so realistic expectations are in order. However, a modest system like this should still be quite enjoyable. A 2nd sub or much larger sub could be something to save for in the future.


Thanks a ton for your response. Could you give me some names of some high quality subs that come to mind? i may have some flexibility in tweaking the budget and/or wait for promotions. Also are the pioneer towers better than klipsch or polk monitors?

Thanks again
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post #93 of 5701 Old 10-04-2010, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by YOTR View Post

I agree with you completely. I almost find myself trying to find what is wrong with these speakers. I normally don't shop at BB much and would normally never consider buying speakers from them (overpriced and very limited when it comes to selection).

This is strange for a $89 per pair speaker. I managed to get the
terminal plate off - It has the look of 2nd order crossover. 2 coils,
2 capacitors (poly cap on the tweeter) and 2 resistors. There is
also a brace in the center - from the front baffle to the back wall.
I do not understand the pricing of this speaker. You can tell that
they were trying to make this a good speaker.

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Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #94 of 5701 Old 10-04-2010, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthling121 View Post

Thanks a ton for your response. Could you give me some names of some high quality subs that come to mind? i may have some flexibility in tweaking the budget and/or wait for promotions. Also are the pioneer towers better than klipsch or polk monitors?

Thanks again

All we can tell you is what we prefer - When ever possible, always
try to audition. If you can't audition - then buy from a place that
has a 30 day return policy. Subs - HSU, SVS and some say Epik.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #95 of 5701 Old 10-04-2010, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earthling121 View Post

Thanks a ton for your response. Could you give me some names of some high quality subs that come to mind? i may have some flexibility in tweaking the budget and/or wait for promotions. Also are the pioneer towers better than klipsch or polk monitors?

Thanks again

Not to derail with sub talk, but a quick, incomplete list, though of substantially greater cost than the Lava, would be:

Epik Legend
Hsu VTF-3.3
SVS PB12-NSD DSP
Elemental A5 - 350 (getting closer to the size you really need for that room)

Check out the sub forum for a lot more advice.
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post #96 of 5701 Old 10-04-2010, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post

This is strange for a $89 per pair speaker. I managed to get the
terminal plate off - It has the look of 2nd order crossover. 2 coils,
2 capacitors (poly cap on the tweeter) and 2 resistors. There is
also a brace in the center - from the front baffle to the back wall.
I do not understand the pricing of this speaker. You can tell that
they were trying to make this a good speaker.

I can tell you that it was a real challenge to hit the $89.00 price point. My original plan was to get to $79.00, however Andrew told me that he needed more money to get them to sound they way he needed them to... I just made our Margin extremely lean on most models...

Andrew had to leave early today, however he will begin answering questions here tomorrow... I also asked him to provide me with some measurements for each model. I will post them once I get them tomorrow hopefully...

My next project is to create very nice high quality HDMI 1.4 cables that don't break the bank (Not $10.00 cables), but cables that truly are different and many of them will be active (Super Thin) but are cheaper than the major brands... And try and eliminate all of the BS marketing that goes on with cables.... At Cedia I saw a certain company try and make the case that you need a 35Gbps cable for "Future HDTV Formats" : By future I am assuming they are talking about made up formats....



Chris
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post #97 of 5701 Old 10-04-2010, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post

I can tell you that it was a real challenge to hit the $89.00 price point. My original plan was to get to $79.00, however Andrew told me that he needed more money to get them to sound they way he needed them to... I just made our Margin extremely lean on most models...

Andrew had to leave early today, however he will begin answering questions here tomorrow... I also asked him to provide me with some measurements for each model. I will post them once I get them tomorrow hopefully...

My next project is to create very nice high quality HDMI 1.4 cables that don't break the bank (Not $10.00 cables), but cables that truly are different and many of them will be active (Super Thin) but are cheaper than the major brands... And try and eliminate all of the BS marketing that goes on with cables.... At Cedia I saw a certain company try and make the case that you need a 35Gbps cable for "Future HDTV Formats" : By future I am assuming they are talking about made up formats....



Chris

You need 35Gbps if you want to route not only your own, but also your entire neighborhood's HD data streams through your system. Yes, that must be the future.

As for getting further data and info on the speakers, that sounds very cool. This has been a fun thread to follow so far.
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post #98 of 5701 Old 10-04-2010, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post


I can tell you that it was a real challenge to hit the $89.00 price point. My original plan was to get to $79.00, however Andrew told me that he needed more money to get them to sound they way he needed them to... I just made our Margin extremely lean on most models...

Andrew had to leave early today, however he will begin answering questions here tomorrow... I also asked him to provide me with some measurements for each model. I will post them once I get them tomorrow hopefully...

My next project is to create very nice high quality HDMI 1.4 cables that don't break the bank (Not $10.00 cables), but cables that truly are different and many of them will be active (Super Thin) but are cheaper than the major brands... And try and eliminate all of the BS marketing that goes on with cables.... At Cedia I saw a certain company try and make the case that you need a 35Gbps cable for "Future HDTV Formats" : By future I am assuming they are talking about made up formats....

Chris

Did you happen to see my bipole/dipole question right after your first post here?
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post #99 of 5701 Old 10-04-2010, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by palehorse View Post

Did you happen to see my bipole/dipole question right after your first post here?

Hi Palehorse,

Sorry I did not see your original question.. Right now I do not have anything planned for a dipole or bipole, however if these current speakers are successful I will be able to work on additional styles of speakers. I will talk with Andrew about your idea and see what he can come up that is thin and affordable.

Chris
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post #100 of 5701 Old 10-04-2010, 09:38 PM
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Went to my local BB after work today. Took in my own CD's and the salesguy let me play with speakers as long as I wanted. The BS21s were positioned next to Polk T15s, Polk TSi100 and a Klipsch bookshelf speaker, maybe the Icon VB-15.

My observations:

1. First thing you notice is the build quality. These are well made solid speakers, the curved shape is like my Jamo E660 and E680 towers. Also similar to the Polk RtiA1 or A3 bookshelf speakers. Much better build quality than the Polk T15.

2. The metals grilles are unique. Doesn't look like they come off either. Neither a plus or minus. Distinct styling stands out from the other boxy speakers. At 12 3/4" they were taller than both Polk speakers.

3. Speakers have a low sensitivity of 84db. This was noticeable when switching back from the Polks and Klipsch which are much more sensitive. No way to equalize the volume between different sets. I'm sure the uninformed listener may prefer the other brands just based on initial loudness. The Pioneers are also 6 ohm speakers if that matters. My Jamos are 6 ohm and my Denon receiver doesn't have a problem with them. My HK doesnt either.

4. Sound is more neutral and balanced on the Pioneers. The Polks and Klipsch are bright! I still don't like the horn tweeters on Klipsch. When switching back and forth on music both the other brands annoyed me with their highs!

5. The BS21 didn't blow me away but for $89 I liked them better than the competitors. I wished I could have tested them against the Energy CB-5 in the Magnolia Audio room. Electronics Expo puts them on sale for under $100/pr on occasion. Pretty solid bass for a 4" driver on the BS21. Probably due to the large enclosure.

6. The Pioneers only have a 1 year warranty while the others have a 5 year warranty. I guess you have to make some concessions in order to build a $89/pr of speakers.

7. The FS51 towers sound really good. My only complaint is their height. At 31" they're kinda short so I had to squat down to get the tweeter at ear level. Still when switching back and forth between the FS51 and Klipsch and Polk towers, I liked the Pioneer better. I guess I just dont like a really bright speaker. The FS51 comes with an attached base plate so they're very sturdy. Should have no worries about kids knocking them over.

8. I think the real steal of the bunch is the C21 center. That's a big speaker and comes with dual 5.25" drivers for $79. The sound is nice and clear too. I managed to have the FS51, C21 and BS21 all powered on all the same time in All Channel Stereo using the Yamaha receiver connected to the speaker selector switchbox. I turned it up pretty loud and a few people came over to listen to War's Greatest Hits. I didn't have a subwoofer switched on but there was plenty of bass from the small towers.

9. The BB demo CD was a CD-R which must have been burned from low bitrate MP3's. the sound quality was way worse than my CD's and really takes away from the capabilties of the speakers. Bring your own music if you want to get the best from the speakers!

0. If you like an overly bright detailed speaker, the Pioneers may not be for you. Give them an honest listen before deciding. I like them.

Afro GT
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post #101 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post


Hi Palehorse,

Sorry I did not see your original question.. Right now I do not have anything planned for a dipole or bipole, however if these current speakers are successful I will be able to work on additional styles of speakers. I will talk with Andrew about your idea and see what he can come up that is thin and affordable.

Chris

That's great, thank you! I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys can come up with!
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post #102 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Went to my local BB after work today. Took in my own CD's and the salesguy let me play with speakers as long as I wanted. The BS21s were positioned next to Polk T15s, Polk TSi100 and a Klipsch bookshelf speaker, maybe the Icon VB-15.

My observations:

1. First thing you notice is the build quality. These are well made solid speakers, the curved shape is like my Jamo E660 and E680 towers. Also similar to the Polk RtiA1 or A3 bookshelf speakers. Much better build quality than the Polk T15.

2. The metals grilles are unique. Doesn't look like they come off either. Neither a plus or minus. Distinct styling stands out from the other boxy speakers. At 12 3/4" they were taller than both Polk speakers.

3. Speakers have a low sensitivity of 84db. This was noticeable when switching back from the Polks and Klipsch which are much more sensitive. No way to equalize the volume between different sets. I'm sure the uninformed listener may prefer the other brands just based on initial loudness. The Pioneers are also 6 ohm speakers if that matters. My Jamos are 6 ohm and my Denon receiver doesn't have a problem with them. My HK doesnt either.

4. Sound is more neutral and balanced on the Pioneers. The Polks and Klipsch are bright! I still don't like the horn tweeters on Klipsch. When switching back and forth on music both the other brands annoyed me with their highs!

5. The BS21 didn't blow me away but for $89 I liked them better than the competitors. I wished I could have tested them against the Energy CB-5 in the Magnolia Audio room. Electronics Expo puts them on sale for under $100/pr on occasion. Pretty solid bass for a 4" driver on the BS21. Probably due to the large enclosure.

6. The Pioneers only have a 1 year warranty while the others have a 5 year warranty. I guess you have to make some concessions in order to build a $89/pr of speakers.

7. The FS51 towers sound really good. My only complaint is their height. At 31" they're kinda short so I had to squat down to get the tweeter at ear level. Still when switching back and forth between the FS51 and Klipsch and Polk towers, I liked the Pioneer better. I guess I just dont like a really bright speaker. The FS51 comes with an attached base plate so they're very sturdy. Should have no worries about kids knocking them over.

8. I think the real steal of the bunch is the C21 center. That's a big speaker and comes with dual 5.25" drivers for $79. The sound is nice and clear too. I managed to have the FS51, C21 and BS21 all powered on all the same time in All Channel Stereo using the Yamaha receiver connected to the speaker selector switchbox. I turned it up pretty loud and a few people came over to listen to War's Greatest Hits. I didn't have a subwoofer switched on but there was plenty of bass from the small towers.

9. The BB demo CD was a CD-R which must have been burned from low bitrate MP3's. the sound quality was way worse than my CD's and really takes away from the capabilties of the speakers. Bring your own music if you want to get the best from the speakers!

0. If you like an overly bright detailed speaker, the Pioneers may not be for you. Give them an honest listen before deciding. I like them.



The height issue of the towers is something I also noticed. My ear listening level is almost 38 inches (36 inches if I am slouching on the couch). Of course, my RC-30's are only about 2 inches taller than this (so not ear level either) and they sound fine. I guess with most towers, they are rarely the exact height. Of course if I went with the bookshelfs and stands, I could get the exact ear level I need. The towers sound really good though especially for the price.

I agree the center is a steal at that price. I keep wondering what they comprised as it looks like they could have easily charged $150 for it.
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post #103 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 07:11 AM
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Jamo E680 fronts are 40.5" tall and my E660 surrounds are 35" tall. Much better heights than the Pioneer tower.

Even the extra 2" from your RC-30s would probably help.

I wonder if Pioneer will come up with a taller tower with maybe 4 5.25 drivers? Although at $199/pr the current speaker is hard to beat.

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post #104 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 07:17 AM
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Shorter is better than taller. You can always put them on a stand and the guys with AT screens will put them on a stage and can hide anything they want to knock them up an inch or two.
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post #105 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

Jamo E680 fronts are 40.5" tall and my E660 surrounds are 35" tall. Much better heights than the Pioneer tower.

Even the extra 2" from your RC-30s would probably help.

I wonder if Pioneer will come up with a taller tower with maybe 4 5.25 drivers? Although at $199/pr the current speaker is hard to beat.

Good point. At the price though as you stated, they are really hard to beat. I thought they sounded better than the polk and klipsch towers that were next to them and they were double the price (actually more than double for the klipsch ones). Again I am not really an audiophile but what I heard sounded really good.

I haven't done an A and B comparison with my RC-30's but I was impressed enough with the pioneer towers to honestly say that my RC-30's are not leaps and bounds better. The RC-30's definitely sound better (based on about 45 minutes of listening to the pioneer's in store) but Pioneer has hit on something. The build quality is good, they have some weight to them (my RC-30's don't feel much heavier than them), and it looks like Pioneer really tried with this line. I can't imagine not recommending them to anyone on a budget or for someone that wants good sound.
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post #106 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 08:48 AM
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The build quality is good, they have some weight to them (my RC-30's don't feel much heavier than them)

Weird because the specs say the Pioneer is 22.3 lbs and the RC-30 is 41lbs. does the height of the rc-30 include the platform and spike kit?

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post #107 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 08:51 AM
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Weird because the specs say the Pioneer is 22.3 lbs and the RC-30 is 41lbs. does the height of the rc-30 include the platform and spike kit?

I am not sure. Honestly I am shocked the RC-30's weigh that much. Is that per speaker? That seems heavy to me or maybe I am stronger than I think and 41 lbs isn't that bad, lol.
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post #108 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 09:40 AM
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yes, that has to be each as they are not sold in pairs. Maybe that's the shipping weight?

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post #109 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 12:50 PM
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Had some spare time today and stopped in Best Buy to check out the Pioneer speakers.

They only had the FS51 and SW-8 in store, according to the employee (despite the website saying the others were in store as well). On top of that, the speaker selector was damaged by a recent power surge during a storm, so I couldn't even hear the FS51.

I did look over the SW8, and have to admit... I might have been too quick to judge it as an Energy ESW-8/tSC ASW-8 clone. While the box looks identical to that of the ASW-8 (dimensions are the same as well).... the Pioneer sub definitely uses an entirely different driver - seems to be a paper based driver instead of the polypropylene cone. Also, despite the image in the Pioneer manual... there is no ribbed surround.
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post #110 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 04:20 PM
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I agree the center is a steal at that price. I keep wondering what they comprised as it looks like they could have easily charged $150 for it.

Raise the price of the center $30 - then lower the price of the large
bookshelf speaker. If I had extra money to play with, I would buy 2
centers and turn them vertical - just to expierment with how they
would sound. I don't think these speakers were made for the purpose
of audiophile mentality to begin with. The marketing is aimed at the
mass market. I need to figure out what to do with the little bookshelf
speakers - I know that somebody will enjoy them.

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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #111 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 04:43 PM
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would you all that have heard these say they would be a better sounds than a used acoustimass 16 6.1 i can get from a friend for about the same price?
im thinking 2 towers 2 bookshelves and 1 center, ive already got a decent sub
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post #112 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 04:44 PM
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would you all that have heard these say they would be a better sounds than a used acoustimass 16 6.1 i can get from a friend for about the same price?
im thinking 2 towers 2 bookshelves and 1 center, ive already got a decent sub

I prefer these over the Bose product.

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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #113 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 04:49 PM
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excellent ill have to go give them a listen, anything will beat the mixed up mess i have hooked up to my denon avr 2807 now im sure.
is there a mounting option on the book shelves or have to go with stands?
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post #114 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 04:52 PM
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excellent ill have to go give them a listen, anything will beat the mixed up mess i have hooked up to my denon avr 2807 now im sure.
is there a mounting option on the book shelves or have to go with stands?

No mounting options on the bookshelves - You will need to use
stands or use a wall mount shelf.

__________________________________________
Who and Where - is the Way, the Truth and the Life?

Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #115 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 04:54 PM
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cool thanks for the help
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post #116 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by NYOKIE View Post

would you all that have heard these say they would be a better sounds than a used acoustimass 16 6.1 i can get from a friend for about the same price?
im thinking 2 towers 2 bookshelves and 1 center, ive already got a decent sub

Definitely buy the Pioneers. I have yet to hear a good satellite system that was better than a good bookshelf or tower speaker setup. And the Bose AM16 would barely qualify as good in my book. Subsat systems are limited by the size of the speakers so there is generally a hole in the midbass range because the little sats do a poor job of producing those frequencies.

Remember you're looking at much larger speakers than the little Bose satellite. Expect a fuller sound, better bass and dynamics.

But you should go to Best Buy and listen for yourself. I think you'll be impressed.

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post #117 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 09:12 PM
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Can anyone comment on how these speakers would match up with Pioneer VSX 1120 amp. This is the combo I am thinking of buying.

Anyone's thoughts or opinions would be apprecited.
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post #118 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sylar911 View Post

Can anyone comment on how these speakers would match up with Pioneer VSX 1120 amp. This is the combo I am thinking of buying.

Anyone's thoughts or opinions would be apprecited.

There should be no problems. I would think that Pioneer had
their receivers in mind when making these speakers.

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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
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post #119 of 5701 Old 10-05-2010, 10:14 PM
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hmmm...looking at the towers. the low sensitivity and low power handling doesn't really appeal to the head banger in me but the price is very nice.
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post #120 of 5701 Old 10-06-2010, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewTT View Post

hmmm...looking at the towers. the low sensitivity and low power handling doesn't really appeal to the head banger in me but the price is very nice.

Their stuff is not made for real head banging.

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Speakers > MB Quart VS05, Boston VS260, Snell K7
Subwoofer > Mordaunt Short Aviano 7
Receiver > Tascam PA-R200, Pioneer VSX-30
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