Pioneer's Speaker Genius Hits Low Price Point - Page 73 - AVS Forum
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post #2161 of 6024 Old 02-21-2012, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

So maybe Andrew Jones didn't actually design the sub: Check out these frequency response plots for the Energy Take setup and the Pioneers. Same reviewer, 2 1/2 years apart. The sub frequency plots are very similar:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/e...-labs-measures
http://www.hometheater.com/content/p...-labs-measures

I wonder if the max SPL is the same???

We'll have to put JimWilson of the budget subwoofer thread onto this

I don't know that I qualify as an expert on anything, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway...

From what I can tell they aren't the same. I see too many differences in frequency response, measured output and extension, physical dimensions, even port size. They certainly do look close, but I doubt they're the same.

I have come to realize that some budget subwoofers tend to share commodity parts. My assumption is there are a few (mostly Chinese) companies mass producing generic assemblies that can be purchased for very little, when bought in quantity. I've even run across identical subs that have nothing more than a name plate be different between them, so there appears to be manufacturers making a finished product and allowing you to brand them yourself.

Since both of these sub are produced by fairly large companies, and sold for essentially peanuts, there's little profit to be made by doing a "clean sheet" design (they would never recoup their costs). If that's the case then buying generic parts and merely assembling them is the most profitable route, which may be what's occurring here.

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post #2162 of 6024 Old 02-21-2012, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post

And here's a pic of my predicament.

Would moving the TV down and placing the center above it just clutter this all up horribly? I'm thinking maybe I should stick to stereo / phantom-center here just for looks as this is really my music area and casual TV/movie room, not my home theater (which is a dedicated area on another floor).

Also trying to decide whether to use the 41's on the mantel there (or maybe mount them on the wall either floating above the mantel at TV level, or farther out to the sides, clearing the mantel of their clutter)...

...or go with the floorstanders (which need to be raised up on some kind of stands to sound right).

Trying not to make this room look just totally crapped on by electronics, you know? The left-rights are essential (for music at the least), and look fine. Just wondering what else I can get away with without spoiling the space. Maybe not much else.

I show here the FS51's on the floor, the BS41 on the right, and the C21 center on the left hand side, just to show scale for everything.

Attachment 237874

Wow....how can you watch TV with your head looking up all the time...talk about fatigue....
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post #2163 of 6024 Old 02-21-2012, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post

And here's a pic of my predicament.

A predicament indeed. Haunted by two dead deer! I'd freak out with just one
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post #2164 of 6024 Old 02-21-2012, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by audiok View Post

A predicament indeed. Haunted by two dead deer! I'd freak out with just one

Predicament? Nop, Chuck Testa
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post #2165 of 6024 Old 02-21-2012, 04:49 PM
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Duplicate post. Stupid smartphone!

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
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post #2166 of 6024 Old 02-21-2012, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post


Wow....how can you watch TV with your head looking up all the time...talk about fatigue....

If you have the right kind of couch, you recline into your cushions and it puts your eyes at the perfect angle for something like that. I used to have my tv wall mounted at about that height and had zero problems with it.

Stand tall and shake the heavens...
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post #2167 of 6024 Old 02-21-2012, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post

If you have the right kind of couch, you recline into your cushions and it puts your eyes at the perfect angle for something like that. I used to have my tv wall mounted at about that height and had zero problems with it.

ah...that makes sense....a sleeper TV
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post #2168 of 6024 Old 02-22-2012, 06:52 AM
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Has anyone else tried "stacked" FS51s?
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post #2169 of 6024 Old 02-22-2012, 06:54 AM
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The FS-51s are back on sale at Newegg. This time for $150. Still an excellent buy.
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post #2170 of 6024 Old 02-22-2012, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Mntallman View Post

Has anyone else tried "stacked" FS51s?

I've thought about it, since my receiver lets me use the rear surround amps as an additional pair of L/R amps (mainly for bi-amped mains). If you literally mean "stacked", no, I was going to put them side-by-side. But there's no reason not to stack them. I'd turn the top one upside down to keep the tweeters within a few inches of each other.

I'll try CS21s for surrounds if I try doubled FS51 mains. That would have to be a better match than BS21s. But I think the setup would be better for music, anyway.
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post #2171 of 6024 Old 02-22-2012, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

[...]
http://www.hometheater.com/content/p...-labs-measures
[...]

Thanks for the link. I've been wondering where to set the crossover for my pair of SW-8s. It looks like I should follow the statement of 100 Hz in the Owners' Manual for the FS51/BS21/C21. The SW-8 manual says use 70-90Hz for bookshelf speakers and 40-70Hz for floorstanding.

Or will the FS51s let me use 90Hz instead? Is there a similar graph for the FS-51?
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post #2172 of 6024 Old 02-22-2012, 08:54 PM
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Maybe old news, but I just noticed this at the Pioneer USA site. The others are still listed as Current Models.
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post #2173 of 6024 Old 02-22-2012, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derangedhermit View Post

Thanks for the link. I've been wondering where to set the crossover for my pair of SW-8s. It looks like I should follow the statement of 100 Hz in the Owners' Manual for the FS51/BS21/C21. The SW-8 manual says use 70-90Hz for bookshelf speakers and 40-70Hz for floorstanding.

Or will the FS51s let me use 90Hz instead? Is there a similar graph for the FS-51?

Based on Pioneers specs, I'd try 60 or 80hz with the FS51s. Whichever sounds better to you

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post #2174 of 6024 Old 02-23-2012, 02:33 PM
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No room for side by side here but I do remember the old days when stacked Advents were a thing that either way worked. Surprised that no one has mentioned the Henry Kloss sound of these speakers.
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post #2175 of 6024 Old 02-25-2012, 03:12 AM
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Folks I am using 51FS as fronts, 21BS as surrounds, C 21 as center and the SW8 sub along with Yamaha RX 671 AVR. The room's size is approximately 12' X 10'. I ran the YPAO to calibrate the system and need some clarifications.

The AVR termed all my 5 speakers including the centre and the surround ones (which are bookshelves) to be large. I have read that ideally all speakers including the front Floorstanders should be changed to 'small' to provide a better management of the low frequencies in association with the sub. Should I manually change all the speakers to 'small'? If I name the fronts as small then the "Extra Bass" option gets greyed out. Am I better off using the fronts as large and enabling the 'Extra Bass' option?

Also the sub has been reduced to -10dB so should I let it remain there. I changed the setting of the centre from -2.5dB to -3.5dB as it was proving to be too overpowering. Hope that's all right?

Now this brings me to my final question- the crossover for the sub has been fixed at 40Hz so when I change the front speakers to 'small' should I change this frequency? Also on the sub should I keep the freq dial at max which is 150Hz or should I keep it somewhere in between? The phase is set at 0 .. hope that's okay?

Thats a bag full of questions.. any help would be much appreciated !

Oh btw here is the tech sheet:

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post #2176 of 6024 Old 02-25-2012, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mave211 View Post

Folks I am using 51FS as fronts, 21BS as surrounds, C 21 as center and the SW8 sub along with Yamaha RX 671 AVR. The room's size is approximately 12' X 10'. I ran the YPAO to calibrate the system and need some clarifications.

The AVR termed all my 5 speakers including the centre and the surround ones (which are bookshelves) to be large. I have read that ideally all speakers including the front Floorstanders should be changed to 'small' to provide a better management of the low frequencies in association with the sub. Should I manually change all the speakers to 'small'? If I name the fronts as small then the "Extra Bass" option gets greyed out. Am I better off using the fronts as large and enabling the 'Extra Bass' option?

Also the sub has been reduced to -10dB so should I let it remain there. I changed the setting of the centre from -2.5dB to -3.5dB as it was proving to be too overpowering. Hope that's all right?

Now this brings me to my final question- the crossover for the sub has been fixed at 40Hz so when I change the front speakers to 'small' should I change this frequency? Also on the sub should I keep the freq dial at max which is 150Hz or should I keep it somewhere in between? The phase is set at 0 .. hope that's okay?

Thats a bag full of questions.. any help would be much appreciated !

Oh btw here is the tech sheet:

Yes set them at small is better that way, it will send the low frequency to the sub. The sub will manage the low frequency better is made for that also the sub has its own amp that way it will release more tension from the receiver and it will have more power to send to the other speakers. I don't know anything about your receiver but if you can set the X-over frequency individually try and set the fronts 51s 60-80hz which ever sounds best for you. The center C 21 the Manual says to set it at 100 Hz and the rears 80-90hz. If you can't just set it at 80 Hz. That way frequencies that are lower to the X-over will be send to the sub. Yes keep the freq dial on the back of the sub To max. Use a cable from the receiver to the sub that good in the "sub in"
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post #2177 of 6024 Old 02-25-2012, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by elvinps2626 View Post

Yes set them at small is better that way, it will send the low frequency to the sub. The sub will manage the low frequency better is made for that also the sub has its own amp that way it will release more tension from the receiver and it will have more power to send to the other speakers. I don't know anything about your receiver but if you can set the X-over frequency individually try and set the fronts 51s 60-80hz which ever sounds best for you. The center C 21 the Manual says to set it at 100 Hz and the rears 80-90hz. If you can't just set it at 80 Hz. That way frequencies that are lower to the X-over will be send to the sub. Yes keep the freq dial on the back of the sub To max. Use a cable from the receiver to the sub that good in the "sub in"

So you set the C21 to 100hz like the manual says, does that mean that the sub would need to also be set to 100hz so the 80hz to 100hz signals going to the center channel are not lost?
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post #2178 of 6024 Old 02-27-2012, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by neo_styles View Post

Pure direct is bit-for-bit with no processing so that's your purest source. As for worrying about damaging your speakers, I wouldn't worry. My pios have been beasts so far.

A very late reply from myself but thanks for the info.
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post #2179 of 6024 Old 02-28-2012, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by BBC60 View Post


So you set the C21 to 100hz like the manual says, does that mean that the sub would need to also be set to 100hz so the 80hz to 100hz signals going to the center channel are not lost?

Sorry for the late reply, on the back of the sub woofer set it to its maximum that way the internal X-over of the receiver and the subwoofer don't conflict with each other. If you set the receiver X-over for the C21 at 110Hz and the subwoofer X-over knob at 100Hz the receiver will send signals all the way to 110 but since the subwoofer only can receive 100 and below because of the X-over knob there will be 10 missing. So it's better to leave the X-over on the subwoofer to its maximum and let the receiver handel the rest.
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post #2180 of 6024 Old 02-28-2012, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mntallman View Post

No room for side by side here but I do remember the old days when stacked Advents were a thing that either way worked. Surprised that no one has mentioned the Henry Kloss sound of these speakers.

Now I feel all retro, my upstairs "music room" currently has two sets of large Advents stacked tweeter to tweeter.

But you are very correct that these Pioneers remind me a lot of my Advents. In fact if you check the review I wrote on the BB site last year I mention just that.

Both of them are very neutral and it's hard to pigeonhole the sound exactly. I know several people on this forum have described the Pio's as "warm" and I don't argue with that (not that I'm sure what that means) but they are just very sweet and balanced. I have had lots of different speakers over the years and still rotate speakers in my music room but both the Advents and the Pioneers are just easy to listen to for hours at a time.

The ironic part is that both of these speakers get to the same place from very different directions. The Pioneers are a 4-way design with a 7 phase crossover, the Advents are a two way design with one of the simplest crossover setups possible. From where I sit (I'm the guy in the easy chair with the smile on my face) it doesn't matter how they get there I just can't get over how much I love these speakers.
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post #2181 of 6024 Old 02-28-2012, 08:05 AM
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Even though I have a very nice main system, I still like to listen to the Pioneers and F12 every so often in my other room as well. It is a lot of system for a small price.
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post #2182 of 6024 Old 02-28-2012, 03:43 PM
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Starting on my second week with stacked fs51s....if you can try this I think you'll be as amazed as I am. Also found that my C21 center isn't needed now. Xing mine over at 100 to an eD A5-350 EQed with Antimode 8033s. Two more fs51s for rear speakers. Have my Gordon Goodwin's Big Phat Band XXL playing now. Big smile!
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post #2183 of 6024 Old 02-29-2012, 03:56 PM
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So what are the hot subwoofers for a larger room? It sounds like the Sw-8 is the weak link here in a bigger room. What are the good options, specifically?

I know Hsu and SVS, but those are pretty darn expensive options for a system at this price point. I've heard some mention the BIC. What are the go-to value subs for a room that needs a bit more than the SW-8 can provide?

Thanks!

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post #2184 of 6024 Old 02-29-2012, 04:06 PM
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Samurai Jack what's your price range for a better subwoofer?

Afro GT
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post #2185 of 6024 Old 02-29-2012, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post

So what are the hot subwoofers for a larger room? It sounds like the Sw-8 is the weak link here in a bigger room. What are the good options, specifically?

I know Hsu and SVS, but those are pretty darn expensive options for a system at this price point. I've heard some mention the BIC. What are the go-to value subs for a room that needs a bit more than the SW-8 can provide?

Thanks!

Expect to spend double of what you think your budget for a sub is for good sound.

The BIC F12 is an excellent starter sub. Two of them would work nice in a big room. The PA-150 is an excellent 15" sub in the $300 range. Or you could go with my Submersive for "only" $2200.
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post #2186 of 6024 Old 02-29-2012, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Jack View Post

So what are the hot subwoofers for a larger room? It sounds like the Sw-8 is the weak link here in a bigger room. What are the good options, specifically?

I know Hsu and SVS, but those are pretty darn expensive options for a system at this price point. I've heard some mention the BIC. What are the go-to value subs for a room that needs a bit more than the SW-8 can provide?

Thanks!

Depends on what you call "value"
I picked up an Elemental Designs A2-300 as my "budget" sub ($400-450 price range), and I've been thrilled with it. The company has changed their way of doing things, and what used to be a 4-6 week wait for a sub should be fixed since they will be stocking their popular subs instead of building to order.
My room is 19'x12'x7.5'.

-Aaron
My Basement Movie Room and Bar/Game Room - actually doing stuff now... please comment!
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post #2187 of 6024 Old 02-29-2012, 05:03 PM
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Depends on what you call "value"
I picked up an Elemental Designs A2-300 as my "budget" sub ($400-450 price range), and I've been thrilled with it. The company has changed their way of doing things, and what used to be a 4-6 week wait for a sub should be fixed since they will be stocking their popular subs instead of building to order.
My room is 19'x12'x7.5'.

I had my a2-300 for 3 years and I loved it. It was only $315 when I originally ordered it.. which was a bargain. It can't hold a candle to my new sub performance wise, but the price is much more tolerable.

An epik legend might work well for you too.
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post #2188 of 6024 Old 02-29-2012, 07:28 PM
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Just watched this week's "Last Man Standing" episode. Near the end, when Tim Allen was talking to his daughter in their living room, there was a Pioneer SP-FS51 tower speaker by the wall.

I love mine.The combination of this forum thread and the rave reviews in Home Theater magazine and Stereophile convinced me. I can't believe they can sell such great speakers for such a low price. Puts a lot of higher priced speakers to shame.

I wonder why the BS41 speakers are shown as discontinued on the Pioneer website. Could they be coming out with its successor? Give us the inside scoop, Mr. Jones.
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post #2189 of 6024 Old 02-29-2012, 08:02 PM
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I am putting together my first HT system. I recently purchased the Pioneer VSX-1121 receiver and now need to purchase speakers:

Which is the better choice:

Pioneer package from Best Buy:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Pioneer+...rd164900050018

or this Energy Package from Newegg:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882269038

Both will cost roughly the same but I am not sure which to go with. I am also looking for a sub and have my sights set on the BIC America F12.

Thank you to all for your help.
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post #2190 of 6024 Old 02-29-2012, 08:41 PM
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Those really arent Energy speakers. That Energy system is a rebadged Jamo S426 HCS3 and comes on sale at local Fry's Electronics for $150. So even if you pay $299, that's twice as much. Where do you live? If you have a Fry's nearby wait a week or two they'll be on sale again.

http://www.jamo.com/na-en/products/s...3-description/

At $150 the Jamo is a steal. At $299 I think the Pioneer is better.

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