bi wiring - b&w 685 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 86 Old 10-05-2010, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys,

I just picked up a pair of 685's. I ran them and was decently satisfied. I am running them off of a hk 3490. I now have them bi-wired, I don't know if it made a difference, but it sounds a little less bass heavy and cleaner.

The speakers sound good, but I feel like they really need to open up at lower volumes.. The receiver doesnt clip at all even when turned up loud, but sounds a little lifeless, the bi-wiring seemed to make it sound a bit cleaner. ( i used speaker 1 + speaker 2 output - is that correct?

would the emotiva upa-2 be a good upgrade? or xpa-2?

Also how would those 2 channel amps, compare to a 5 channel amp or something - if i were to bi-amp the speakers??

tia
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post #2 of 86 Old 10-05-2010, 12:34 AM - Thread Starter
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also am i looking at the right components to upgrade - in this case, the amp?

should i try another receiver first?
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post #3 of 86 Old 10-05-2010, 03:45 AM
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If changing your wiring, changing your electronics is only getting you marginal differences in sound improvement, I wonder if you might be better served by auditioning different speakers so your starting point is better?

(not bashing your choice of speakers)

That said, I'm not familiar with your speakers however, I do (actively) biamp and think it can bring some benefits to the table in general. I don't know enough to know if it would benefit you in this situation.
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post #4 of 86 Old 10-05-2010, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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hey thx for input,

i do like the sound that i hear, i just wish it was a little more prominent and pronounced.

i was looking at getting a mcintosh amp.. any ideas, even for any other amps.

i was looking to spend under 500 if possible, i know its a stretch for the mcintosh!
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post #5 of 86 Old 10-05-2010, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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would an mc7100 help at all? how bout an emotiva amp?

i am just trying to find out hte amount of difference i can make by switching amps.
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post #6 of 86 Old 10-05-2010, 12:22 PM
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To my ears, swapping out electronics is the final spice on top of the entree. Meaning, (and don't get caught up with my percentages)

I think the speakers themselves are going to be 90% responsible for what you hear (if not more?) and the electronics the balance.

I've had some lowely 4 watt monoblocks on my Klipschorns and a 100 watt tubed McIntosh amp (MC-2102). To my ears, playing within the realm of the 4 watt monoblocks, these two amps sounded more alike than different.

Of course, when the throttle gets mashed and now the 4-watt amps are running out of gas, the McIntosh amps sound better.... so "within a common operating range" as my qualifer, I think you'd be harder pressed to pick different electronics than you would be to pick different speakers.

Which is why I say look at other speakers. You can put a 1-million dollar set of electronics in front of your speakers. It will probably sound better but still might not be what you're looking for. Conversely, you might be able to put a "X" thousand dollar speaker on your existing electronics and find your answer.

Just my .02....good luck!
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post #7 of 86 Old 10-05-2010, 12:26 PM
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The HK is a good receiver with enough power. Spend your time and money on room treatments, positioning, and then - auditioning speakers (I like the B&W's).

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post #8 of 86 Old 10-05-2010, 04:41 PM
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I would not spend more for an amp - than what I did with the speakers.

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post #9 of 86 Old 10-05-2010, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks for all the replies. I will definitely be keeping the receiver after all the opinions. I was thinking the same thing, at 299 i felt that the hk is an incredible value.

The sound is not as transparent and just feels a tad bit flatter, separation could be a bit better, but in the end the quality is good.

i wanted the sound to be a bit more immersive, any thoughts

so any recommendations as where to start, besides changing speakers ???

i really cant do much as far as placement, if i wanted to move them, it would be a wall mount

thx
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post #10 of 86 Old 10-06-2010, 02:20 AM
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I also bi wire my B&W's (602S3) and have found that I prefer them this way.

Your h/k receiver is more than adequate for the job. The next logical step for you is to play around with the speaker and listening positions. I wouldn't even think of wall mounting them, speakers like room to breathe, give them at least 18 inches away from any walls and avoid diffraction off of neighboring surfaces. After you have these dialed in, time for room treatments.

Then you can start thinking about amplifier and source upgrades.

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post #11 of 86 Old 10-06-2010, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wowder1234 View Post

i really cant do much as far as placement, if i wanted to move them, it would be a wall mount

thx

Don't do that, but do move them around just to see if it makes a difference, even if it's not permanent.

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post #12 of 86 Old 09-26-2012, 08:20 PM
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Im pretty sure you've made up your mind by now but since your 685's are ported in the front I wouldn't worry about "room to breathe" so you could mount them on the wall if you wanted and could get a good angle off of it. As for your receiver look for a Denon 1712 or some (good quality & affordable) 7 channel amp you could bi-amp with. doing this will give you 90x2 watts per speaker and should open up your sound. To improve your soundstage I would look for a CD player with a better DAC on it (Maybe the entry level NAD?)
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post #13 of 86 Old 09-26-2012, 08:47 PM
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Im pretty sure you've made up your mind by now . . .

Yeah. Since the original post is from November 2010, one would think so. You know, there are plenty of active threads on here to participate in. LOL

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post #14 of 86 Old 09-27-2012, 10:16 AM
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LOL I know but I was just popping my forum cherry in a safe environment... Im building up to these active ones haha And anyway I got to this thread through Google so I figured a bit more up to date post might help someone in the same many others have helped me. Just trying to give back here haha but thanks for the invite.
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post #15 of 86 Old 09-27-2012, 01:10 PM
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Im pretty sure you've made up your mind by now but since your 685's are ported in the front I wouldn't worry about "room to breathe" so you could mount them on the wall if you wanted and could get a good angle off of it. As for your receiver look for a Denon 1712 or some (good quality & affordable) 7 channel amp you could bi-amp with. doing this will give you 90x2 watts per speaker and should open up your sound. To improve your soundstage I would look for a CD player with a better DAC on it (Maybe the entry level NAD?)
That is passive biamping and it won't do a thing for him just as the biwiring is doing nothing for him. Now if you are talking about actively biamping them then that is a different story. But unless you know a lot about crossovers then active biamping is for those who really, really know what they are doing. Because then you remove the stock crossover and use a digital crossover to split the signals to the drivers.

Here's a good article explaining it all:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bi-wire_bi-amp.htm

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post #16 of 86 Old 09-27-2012, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by simonator View Post

I7 channel amp you could bi-amp with. doing this will give you 90x2 watts per speaker
FTR, no it won't give you any more power than a single channel driving the speakers.
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Here's a good article explaining it all:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bi-wire_bi-amp.htm
Lots of errors in there.
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post #17 of 86 Old 09-28-2012, 03:44 AM
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Like what?

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post #18 of 86 Old 09-29-2012, 12:50 AM
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Like what?

Well like ignoring that the current will be different in each run of wire going to either side of the crossover, for starters. There is not identical "signal" in both cables.
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post #19 of 86 Old 09-29-2012, 11:56 AM
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Well like ignoring that the current will be different in each run of wire going to either side of the crossover, for starters. There is not identical "signal" in both cables.

If I am pulling 2 wires from the same amp/AVR terminals, the signal is going to be identical in the 2 wires. Nothing is done to the signal to make them different unless they are changed using an active crossover as mentioned before in the case of biamping. No?
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post #20 of 86 Old 09-29-2012, 12:28 PM
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Well like ignoring that the current will be different in each run of wire going to either side of the crossover, for starters. There is not identical "signal" in both cables.
it will? How? I admit that there is much I need to learn in this industry and that I am a rank amateur compared to many guys here and that I am always open to learning.

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post #21 of 86 Old 09-29-2012, 01:17 PM
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it will?.
Technically yes. The fly in the ointment is that it's not audible.

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post #22 of 86 Old 09-29-2012, 02:19 PM
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If I am pulling 2 wires from the same amp/AVR terminals, the signal is going to be identical in the 2 wires. Nothing is done to the signal to make them different unless they are changed using an active crossover as mentioned before in the case of biamping. No?

No. Stating that the signal will be identical in both sides is a gross oversimplification and basically a strawman argument. i.e. signal is identical therefore both runs of cable are identical.

But that is ignoring an even bigger factor when driving speaker drivers. Current.

Having a crossover upstream affects current flow downstream. You do not need the crossovers downstream of the amps or cables to separate current flow.

Some reading on current flow and speakers and bi-wiring...

http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr7.htm

http://www.current-drive.info/6

http://www.geocities.ws/jonrisch/biwiring.htm
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post #23 of 86 Old 09-29-2012, 07:34 PM
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. The AVR sends out a full range signal to the speaker and the crossover splits it. Merely biwiring does nothing else but use twice as much wire. Those articles are voodoo nonsense.

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post #24 of 86 Old 09-29-2012, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kiwi2 View Post

No. Stating that the signal will be identical in both sides is a gross oversimplification and basically a strawman argument. i.e. signal is identical therefore both runs of cable are identical.
But that is ignoring an even bigger factor when driving speaker drivers. Current.
Having a crossover upstream affects current flow downstream. You do not need the crossovers downstream of the amps or cables to separate current flow.
Some reading on current flow and speakers and bi-wiring...
http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr7.htm
http://www.current-drive.info/6
http://www.geocities.ws/jonrisch/biwiring.htm

The crossover splits the signal after the crossover and not before. So why would the signal in the 2 wires change from the amp to the crossover? It is the same full range signal that is sent in each wire from the amp to the tweeter/woofer terminals.

This topic has been discussed to death and the general consensus is that biwiring or biamping (without an active external crossover) has no sonic improvements. If you still believe in "snake oil", go spend your money on extra speaker wires. It is pointless to discuss a moot topic.
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post #25 of 86 Old 09-29-2012, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

The crossover splits the signal after the crossover and not before. So why would the signal in the 2 wires change from the amp to the crossover? It is the same full range signal that is sent in each wire from the amp to the tweeter/woofer terminals.

The difference is the current flow. Current will not flow where there is no demand.

I have previously explained this in other threads with a car battery analogy with a 100w bulb connected directly to the battery terminals with its own run of wire and at the same time a mV car alarm connected to the same battery terminals with its own run of wire. Measuring the current draw in the wires to both the 100w bulb and mV alarm system at the same time would show a different current flow even though they are both connected to the same terminals.

Just like the individual runs of wire from either side of a crossover back to the amp terminals. If you were to passively bi-amp, you would also keep the separation of current flow between the two amps.
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post #26 of 86 Old 09-29-2012, 08:56 PM
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The difference is the current flow. Current will not flow where there is no demand.
I have previously explained this in other threads with a car battery analogy with a 100w bulb connected directly to the battery terminals with its own run of wire and at the same time a mV car alarm connected to the same battery terminals with its own run of wire. Measuring the current draw in the wires to both the 100w bulb and mV alarm system at the same time would show a different current flow even though they are both connected to the same terminals.
Just like the individual runs of wire from either side of a crossover back to the amp terminals. If you were to passively bi-amp, you would also keep the separation of current flow between the two amps.

No matter how you argue, biwiring or passive biamping is not going to improve the sound quality. If you believe in "snake oil" go ahead and waste your money on an extra pair of speaker wires. I guess the reason manufacturers give that option these days is because there are people who believe in "snake oil".
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post #27 of 86 Old 09-29-2012, 09:13 PM
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Just realized that this thread is from 2010. Why am I wasting my time on this thread. LOL
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post #28 of 86 Old 09-30-2012, 04:55 AM
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Just realized that this thread is from 2010. Why am I wasting my time on this thread. LOL
That Simonator guy resurrected it and I was bored. So sue me!tongue.gif

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post #29 of 86 Old 09-30-2012, 02:25 PM
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That Simonator guy resurrected it and I was bored. So sue me!tongue.gif

Well I have to thank ya'll for "waisting your time" Its been quite educational lol
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post #30 of 86 Old 10-02-2012, 08:58 AM
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Just realized that this thread is from 2010. Why am I wasting my time on this thread. LOL

Because you like throwing around terms like "snake oil" and condescending to people you think you're smarter than? It's just a guess.
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