Need Speaker Advice with $6500 Budget - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 138 Old 12-05-2010, 07:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

I would definitely go with the Shos over the Single 8. I am quite happy with my receiver. I have only had it about 10 months.

I used some boxes to see how the speakers would fit. I can fit the triple 12s without taking up too much space. I would just lose 2 bookcases. So everything else will fit.

Ok, I have my LCR speakers and sub pretty much figured out. What should I look for in surround speakers? Do I still look at the sensitivity? OR do I need to at some other specifications. Are the Bipole speakers better for a room with the couch against the wall? Or should I just get a regular pair of speakers and not put too much thought in them? My budget is going to be pretty low if I go with the triple 8s. If I go with the Triple 12s I may be stuck with my old surrounds for a while.

Piece your system together and get what you want slowly. It will save you money in the long run.
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post #92 of 138 Old 12-05-2010, 07:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kathy View Post

I apologize for jumping in on this thread, but I have been following with great interest. I feel like my situation is very much like the Stufine1, starting out considering the Paradigm Studio 60s or 100s, then the NHT Classic Line, the Monitor Audio RX6 or RX8s, then I visited an outstanding HT dealership, and came out with Sonus Faber's being on the top of my list. Although, the SF's really will be stretching my budget. Beautiful speakers for my HT in my living room, but I have read where there are better speakers for the same money.

So, it appears as though Stufine1 has narrowed his choices down to the JTR's or CHT's speakers. So I started researching these two brands. It's pretty difficult reading every single post in the Official Threads of these two brands, but I have, and it took around 4 hours to do so. Also, these companies' web sites are pretty basic.

Given the size of my room, I thought that floor standing speakers was the only was to go, yet there are so many rave reviews about the SHO-10s that are monitors, and the triple 8s which are small too. So, I am not sure either are a fit for me, since my living room is 5,612 cubic ft, and opens to a larger area with a grand total cubic ft of 10,292, but I certainly would like to explore further.

I am so tired of researching that I would like to make a decision this week. Is the best process to contact these two companies providing them with my objective, room dimensions, and current setup, requesting their recommendation?

For a space that big, very few audiophile speakers will be able to fill it. The SHO-10's and the JTR T8's will not have any problem filling that space. Here is what a JTR T8 is capable of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWznxY4CmI4
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post #93 of 138 Old 12-05-2010, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

Gooddoc,

You make some very good points about the surrounds.

You will find very few folks to give you good advice here as most everyone thinks their surrounds are good enough. They use less capable speakers than the mains and less amplification to drive them- of course they are going to think the surrounds don't have a lot going on. Don't get me wrong, its not like you'll always here a difference, but it's far more than I expected and when that rear lights up with the right soundtrack it is truly amazing. Most will never experience it. I linked to RMK! because he's been around awhile and is, quite frankly, the only other person I know on the forum with no compromise surrounds...and his impressions are the same as mine - dramatic improvement.
I can say I have the best surround experience I've ever heard. I attribute that to 5 identical, very capable monopoles, in the perfect ITU configuration. This I believe is the ideal setup, but your choice of surrounds will of course be dictated by your room and WAF.

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #94 of 138 Old 12-05-2010, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

You will find very few folks to give you good advice here as most everyone thinks their surrounds are good enough. They use less capable speakers than the mains and less amplification to drive them- of course they are going to think the surrounds don't have a lot going on. Don't get me wrong, its not like you'll always here a difference, but it's far more than I expected and when that rear lights up with the right soundtrack it is truly amazing. Most will never experience it. I linked to RMK! because he's been around awhile and is, quite frankly, the only other person I know on the forum with no compromise surrounds...and his impressions are the same as mine - dramatic improvement.
I can say I have the best surround experience I've ever heard. I attribute that to 5 identical, very capable monopoles, in the perfect ITU configuration. This I believe is the ideal setup, but your choice of surrounds will of course be dictated by your room and WAF.


monopole do have point source issues.. for me it comes down to what you listen to the most.. Multichannel music..monopoles have an advantage, while for HT wider dispersion is nicer than what typical monopoles can provide. My surrounds are really not dipoles..they are wide dispersion monopoles. Room size also comes into play when discussing surrounds as well as personal preference.

I give the same amount of watts to my surrounds as the front 5 BTW..but still believe surrounds should be servants to the front channels.

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post #95 of 138 Old 12-05-2010, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by spdntrxi View Post


monopole do have point source issues.. for me it comes down to what you listen to the most.. Multichannel music..monopoles have an advantage, while for HT wider dispersion is nicer than what typical monopoles can provide. My surrounds are really not dipoles..they are wide dispersion monopoles.

I give the same amount of watts to my surrounds as the front 5 BTW..

I'm not going to sidetrack the thread, but I disagree. I've had this theoretical discussion many times. I finally have a system to test the theory and I think 5 IDENTICAL monopoles in a properly setup ITU configuration is the best surround I've ever heard(and others agree). YMMV as there will be an element of preference here and one size won't fit all.

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #96 of 138 Old 12-05-2010, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I'm not going to sidetrack the thread, but I disagree. I've had this theoretical discussion many times. I finally have a system to test the theory and I think 5 IDENTICAL monopoles in a properly setup ITU configuration is the best surround I've ever heard(and others agree). YMMV as there will be an element of preference here and one size won't fit all.

it's just the placebo effect of your new speakers and you disagree with T Holman as well.. I dont think I need to explain it

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post #97 of 138 Old 12-05-2010, 10:10 PM
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it's just the placebo effect of your new speakers and you disagree with T Holman as well.. I dont think I need to explain it

I do disagree, yes. Placebo effects cut both directions my friend. We wouldn't have time in this thread to discuss all of the instances of "proven" science that has been found to be wrong. I do respect your opinion. Lets leave it at that. I seriously don't want to derail this thread on a topic I'm sure we're not going to agree about at the end of the discussion.

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #98 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 12:29 AM
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stufine1: You don't by any chance have a different room such as a basement or a spare bedroom that would function better as man cave do you? There are some serious limitations being placed on you because of shoehorning your HT into a living room. Windows, open doorways, WAF, little kids with busy fingers running around. Just a thought.

The room has (by far) the most influence sonically on your future HT. If it absolutely MUST go in your living room so be it. Your wife is probably imagining very small "micro" style surrounds mounted way up high. Ideally, their tweeters should be at, or just above ear level. If it were me, I'd rather stretch for better LCR's anyway. The point Gooddoc raised about equally capable surrounds is largely dependent on what you listen to and watch. If you mostly listen to multichannel music or watch lots of films with 5.1 soundtracks then yes, highly capable surrounds are more important. If not, spend the big dough on the main 3 speakers and the sub(s). You can always fill in the surrounds later as funds become available and your wife gets over the shock.

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post #99 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Your research has definitely put you on the right path Kathy. What is your budget? Calling is always a good idea

Budget? Whatever it takes to achieve improved sound over my Klipsch Reference Series RF-3 & FC-3 speakers. Seriously, that's the goal, but the budget depends on how much I replace or add. If I am only replacing the Klipsch, then it's $3,500. (although I am considering the Sonus Faber Liuto's which are well above that). If I am adding two surrounds, then it's $5,000 max. If I end up replacing my SVS powered cylinder sub, then it's $6,500.

As far as WAF, it's me, and I have to say that those JTRs are not the best looking speaker I have seen, the Sonus Faber's are. Paradigm studio's are second. Maybe a different finish would help.

The center channel speaker has to fit in the opening of the new stand I just ordered from Standout Designs. The opening measures 25 3/4" w 9 5/8" H x 17" D.
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post #100 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 04:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Kathy View Post

Budget? Whatever it takes to achieve improved sound over my Klipsch Reference Series RF-3 & FC-3 speakers. Seriously, that's the goal, but the budget depends on how much I replace or add. If I am only replacing the Klipsch, then it's $3,500. (although I am considering the Sonus Faber Liuto's which are well above that). If I am adding two surrounds, then it's $5,000 max. If I end up replacing my SVS powered cylinder sub, then it's $6,500.

As far as WAF, it's me, and I have to say that those JTRs are not the best looking speaker I have seen, the Sonus Faber's are. Paradigm studio's are second. Maybe a different finish would help.

The center channel speaker has to fit in the opening of the new stand I just ordered from Standout Designs. The opening measures 25 3/4" w 9 5/8" H x 17" D.

Did not know if you were talking about the JTR that I linked to in the video or if you are talking about the veneered version for home use. They are boxy, but they are built for performance. http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-8ht/
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post #101 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

If not, spend the big dough on the main 3 speakers and the sub(s). You can always fill in the surrounds later as funds become available and your wife gets over the shock.

Chris

I agree. As I've said, if this is a growth project then certainly, LCR's are where the money should go. But if he wants a system, within his budget now, he should look at the whole picture.

As an example, I prefer to do total upgrades. My budget for my current system was whatever I could sell my Paradigm Signatures for in the used market. The CHT's represented an entire 5.2 system for that cost. If I had a bigger budget I would have been looking at JTR, Seaton, or Geddes. But I would rather have the complete system within my budget now rather than say...a JTR LCR and a lesser sub and wondering how its going to REALLY sound in a few years when I upgrade the rest of the system to keep up with the LCR's. Perhaps my NEXT system will be a JTR, who knows .

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #102 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 04:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I agree. As I've said, if this is a growth project then certainly, LCR's are where the money should go. But if he wants a system, within his budget now, he should look at the whole picture.

As an example, I prefer to do total upgrades. My budget for my current system was whatever I could sell my Paradigm Signatures for in the used market. The CHT's represented an entire 5.2 system for that cost. If I had a bigger budget I would have been looking at JTR, Seaton, or Geddes. But I would rather have the complete system within my budget now rather than say...a JTR LCR and a lesser sub and wondering how its going to REALLY sound in a few years when I upgrade the rest of the system to keep up with the LCR's. Perhaps my NEXT system will be a JTR, who knows .

I under stand what you are saying, but as you climb up the AV food chain the cost for a total system gets very high and few people can buy it all at once. Lets say you are interested in a 7.1 system of Seaton Cats and a couple of Terraform XL subs. You are looking at spending $31,455 less any discount plus shipping. Few have that kind of money to spend all at once. That is why most people piece together a high end system.
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post #103 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kathy View Post


Budget? Whatever it takes to achieve improved sound over my Klipsch Reference Series RF-3 & FC-3 speakers. Seriously, that's the goal, but the budget depends on how much I replace or add. If I am only replacing the Klipsch, then it's $3,500. (although I am considering the Sonus Faber Liuto's which are well above that). If I am adding two surrounds, then it's $5,000 max. If I end up replacing my SVS powered cylinder sub, then it's $6,500.

As far as WAF, it's me, and I have to say that those JTRs are not the best looking speaker I have seen, the Sonus Faber's are. Paradigm studio's are second. Maybe a different finish would help.

The center channel speaker has to fit in the opening of the new stand I just ordered from Standout Designs. The opening measures 25 3/4" w 9 5/8" H x 17" D.

Ah, Kathy, if you're married you have a lucky husband. Unfortunately, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Remember, when folks actually HEAR the JTR's or SHO's they might look better. Surprisingly, my wife actually somewhat likes the look of my SHO-10's with the metal grills, but they're not going to win any beauty contests.
Unfortunately, that center channel requirement is going to dictate your speaker choices and I don't have any suggestions for you there. JTR and CHT will not be options for you and I don't recommend mix and matching manufacturers. Good luck.

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
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post #104 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I need the whole system at once. I need to get in and get out as fast as possible. Would it be ok to have the surrounds to be on the side walls pointing towards the couch? I may be able to get the SHOs for surrounds if I do this.

It has to be in the living room for now. We are in texas and do not have basements. In two years we are moving to Ohio. I will have a basement and a proper setup then. I don't want to wait until then to get good speakers. With the cost of a new house and redoing a basement I would not have much left for speakers.
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post #105 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post


I under stand what you are saying, but as you climb up the AV food chain the cost for a total system gets very high and few people can buy it all at once. Lets say you are interested in a 7.1 system of Seaton Cats and a couple of Terraform XL subs. You are looking at spending $31,455 less any discount plus shipping. Few have that kind of money to spend all at once. That is why most people piece together a high end system.

I totally understand. I just feel like if I can't afford the whole thing then I need to look down the food chain. But that's just my personal mindset, everyone has their own way. I know I'm in the minority .

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #106 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

I need the whole system at once. I need to get in and get out as fast as possible. Would it be ok to have the surrounds to be on the side walls pointing towards the couch? I may be able to get the SHOs for surrounds if I do this.

For a 5.x setup yes that is fine.

Johnny
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post #107 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

I need the whole system at once. I need to get in and get out as fast as possible. Would it be ok to have the surrounds to be on the side walls pointing towards the couch? I may be able to get the SHOs for surrounds if I do this.

That should work. Check out the dolby setup page. They recommend side surrounds be slightly above ear level.
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post #108 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I figured that would be ok, but I thought I would make sure. Thanks
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post #109 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 12:13 PM
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Here are some photos of the SHO-10's in surround duty and the mount. That's my mini-me on the couch
LL
LL
LL
LL

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #110 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Those are the biggest surrounds I have ever seen. LOL.
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post #111 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

Those are the biggest surrounds I have ever seen. LOL.

nah.. the room just is not super wide.. looks deep though. Wide angle lens distortion from the camera makes them look bigger too.

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post #112 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 08:24 PM
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nah.. the room just is not super wide.. looks deep though. Wide angle lens distortion from the camera makes them look bigger too.

Yea, thats it....wide angle lens I tell my wife it's her wide angle contacts that make them look so big
If you want big sound...
5 identical monopoles, its a beautiful thing

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #113 of 138 Old 12-06-2010, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Yea, thats it....wide angle lens I tell my wife it's her wide angle contacts that make them look so big
If you want big sound...
5 identical monopoles, its a beautiful thing

HORIZONTAL orientation: 11.5" H x 19" W x 9.6" D (including grille)

Thats not overly big in my opinion.. but I've have Cornwalls and Heresy as surrounds before too.. and MMGW too.

Tell the wife to close one eye.. that way she losses depth perception, they will seem smaller.

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post #114 of 138 Old 12-07-2010, 04:43 AM
 
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I totally understand. I just feel like if I can't afford the whole thing then I need to look down the food chain. But that's just my personal mindset, everyone has their own way. I know I'm in the minority .
I would look at cars, boats and things like that the same way as you do. With them you do not have a choice. You can't buy half a car, so you only buy what you can afford. With an HT system or a house (I am a contractor), I don't look at it that way since you can add to them. I am not the kind of guy that has to have it all at once. I like the journey and I like to do things myself. You can get so much more that way for a lot less, but it requires you to have a vision of what you want and to work toward that vision.

As an example. If I was going to purchase a 7.1 CHT system on a limited (not enough money to buy it all) budget. I would get 5 Sho-10's and 1 18.2. Later I would get two more Sho-10's and even later I would buy more 18.2 subs. Once I had three to four subs, I would be done. At least for awhile.

Added
I would take the same route for JTR or any other speaker system that I was considering.
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post #115 of 138 Old 12-07-2010, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mjg100 View Post
I would look at cars, boats and things like that the same way as you do. With them you do not have a choice. You can't buy half a car, so you only buy what you can afford. With an HT system or a house (I am a contractor), I don't look at it that way since you can add to them. I am not the kind of guy that has to have it all at once. I like the journey and I like to do things myself. You can get so much more that way for a lot less, but it requires you to have a vision of what you want and to work toward that vision.

As an example. If I was going to purchase a 7.1 CHT system on a limited (not enough money to buy it all) budget. I would get 5 Sho-10's and 1 18.2. Later I would get two more Sho-10's and even later I would buy more 18.2 subs. Once I had three to four subs, I would be done. At least for awhile.

Added
I would take the same route for JTR or any other speaker system that I was considering.
+1 bud. We are 100% on the same page here. I still want wides and heights for my system...and at least one or two more subs, but they'll have to wait for some more cash. But if all I could afford was a center speaker or even just the LCR's, I wouldn't do it. I considered just getting 3 JTR Triple 8's with my budget, but I really wanted Triple 12's which were too much and I'd have had to get just the LR. And if I went the Triple 8 route I would have to stick with my single Paradigm Servo sub and surrounds that I know wouldn't keep up with the JTR's. In other words half a system. For at least a year or two. The minimum for me was at least 5 Triple 8's and a couple Caps or 18.1's to start, and it was out of my budget.

As you said 5 SHO-10's and an 18.2 to start, that's a complete system in my mind...but it can still be pimped In fact, it's pretty funny you wrote that, since it is EXACTLY what I did!

JTR Noesis 212HT x 3 (LCR) powered by Lab Gruppen 10000Q amp
CHT SHO-10 x 4 (sides and rear) powered by Denon 4311
JTR S2 x 2
CHT 18.1 x2
Oppo BDP103D bluray player/Sonos/PS3
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post #116 of 138 Old 12-07-2010, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I totally agree with you guys. I thought about doing that. However, my wife and everyone else I know says I am stupid for spending this much on speakers. I shouldn't really be doing this. I am a teacher and I don't make a lot of money, but this is something that I will get a lot of enjoyment out of. If I don't strike now while my wife says I can. I am afraid I will never be able to complete the system. My wife is already arguing with me about the budget.

I really want the triple 12s. It would take all of my money after I bought CS a sub to go with it. I would still be missing surrounds. I am afraid my wife won't let me spend another grand or so on more speakers. With my little surrounds now my system will still suck and I spent over 6 grand on it.
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post #117 of 138 Old 12-07-2010, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

I totally agree with you guys. I thought about doing that. However, my wife and everyone else I know says I am stupid for spending this much on speakers. I shouldn't really be doing this. I am a teacher and I don't make a lot of money, but this is something that I will get a lot of enjoyment out of. If I don't strike now while my wife says I can. I am afraid I will never be able to complete the system. My wife is already arguing with me about the budget.

I really want the triple 12s. It would take all of my money after I bought CS a sub to go with it. I would still be missing surrounds. I am afraid my wife won't let me spend another grand or so on more speakers. With my little surrounds now my system will still suck and I spent over 6 grand on it.

Triple 12's would be awesome but I think that is overkill IMHO. I would stick with the SHO-10's. The little bit that you lose over the triple 12's would hardly be noticeable even with a side by side comparo. The guys that posted the two prior posts are spot on. 5 sho-10's and one or two 18.2's. That package will cost you $2966 or $4222.00. Way cheaper than your original budget.

Dumb enough to spend lots of cash on this junk!
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post #118 of 138 Old 12-07-2010, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

I totally agree with you guys. I thought about doing that. However, my wife and everyone else I know says I am stupid for spending this much on speakers. I shouldn't really be doing this. I am a teacher and I don't make a lot of money, but this is something that I will get a lot of enjoyment out of. If I don't strike now while my wife says I can. I am afraid I will never be able to complete the system. My wife is already arguing with me about the budget.

Don't worry about what your friends say about YOUR hobby. All but one of my friends thought I was crazy for spending what I did. Actually a couple of them asked what I spent and said,"Whoa. So you could have gotten a bad ass Bose setup instead." It was one of those moments where I just held my tongue and said,"I don't really like the way Bose sounds." Now they all think my setup is ridiculous overkill but still pretty cool whenever I let them listen for the first time.

On the other hand, your wife is a different story. I'm not married but I'd think a happy household would be much more important than indulging in a hobby(I may think otherwise when I do get married).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

I really want the triple 12s. It would take all of my money after I bought CS a sub to go with it. I would still be missing surrounds. I am afraid my wife won't let me spend another grand or so on more speakers. With my little surrounds now my system will still suck and I spent over 6 grand on it.

Stufine, just so I'm up to speed on your situation, you still need your surrounds to be kinda small right? How far will they be placed from your main listening spot?

As for the mains, I realize you want to get Triple 12s, but you honestly won't need them in a room the size of yours. Sitting 13' back the Triple 8s will still deliver more clean output than you need. So you can save that extra 1K and either stay under your original budget or put it towards sub or surrounds.
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post #119 of 138 Old 12-07-2010, 03:38 PM
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I pretty much consider 5.1 to be a complete system myself and preferably purchased at once. I ended up buying my current system all at once 7.2 because the price was about the same as a 7pack+2 sub from CHT.. I also considered JTR8's since my budget was 10K.. I didn't even spend half that and used the rest to update my Amp and AVR and SACD player. I still have my 5 speaker klipsch heritage system to sell..so more $$$$ for me.

I couldn't care less what other speakers sound like.. I like mine and others dont exist (atleast what I try to tell myself) just keep jubilees away from me.

Johnny
Klipsch,Denon,Parasound,Sunfire
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post #120 of 138 Old 12-07-2010, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyng_fool View Post

Triple 12's would be awesome but I think that is overkill IMHO. I would stick with the SHO-10's. The little bit that you lose over the triple 12's would hardly be noticeable even with a side by side comparo. The guys that posted the two prior posts are spot on. 5 sho-10's and one or two 18.2's. That package will cost you $2966 or $4222.00. Way cheaper than your original budget.

I don't think that assumption would hold true. The Triple 12's are in a different class. They're more expensive of course but they should be considering what you are getting. That's not a knock on the SHO-10's, rather just the reality.
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