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post #1 of 138 Old 11-28-2010, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I am trying to figure out which speakers to buy. I like two systems but I can't figure out which is the better system. My budget is no more than 6500 the less the better. I can't buy until Feb. I need to wait until after Christmas and Income Tax refund. My room size is 20x15x8. It is a living room so I can't put treatments in. The couch is all the way against the wall. I have a big couch, a love seat, and a recliner. The right wall has a door way then a half wall. The back wall has a window to the kitchen and then a walk way to the kitchen. The left wall has two windows. I listen to 40% Tv, 30% Music and 30% Movies. I have already purchased an Onkyo TX-3007.

I want wall shaking bass and I want it to sound good at low volume as well. I am also very concerned with being able to hear the surrounds. I love hearing the glass shattering and hitting the ground and the little voices in horror movies moving all around the room if you know what I mean. I won't listen at reference level very often, but I will every now and then when I am watching a good sounding movie and want to show it off. I want my wife to regret letting me get these. I want my neighbors to have to come out and see what that noise is. I want my music to sound good and loud. I listen to heavy metal, 80s, rap, and top 40.

I am looking at Paradigm and Def Tech. I have also heard Polk, Jamo, and B&W. These were good but I preferred the Paradigm and Def Tech over these. I am open to all other opinions about internet direct speakers. These were the ones I was able to actually audition. I also need help trying to figure out which sub to get. I keep reading about all of these subs and I can't figure out which is the better one. I don't care too much about the size of the sub. As long as it is under 4 feet tall and 3 feet wide and 3 feet deep

Here are the Def Tech Speakers I want.
2 Mythos 10 Left and Right - $1800
1 CLR 3000 Center - $1100
2 BPVX Surrounds- $1400
Sub - Supercube II $899, SVS PB-13 Ultra $1799, Paradigm Sub 12 $1999, HSU VTF-15h $879

Prices are MSRP. I am sure I can get these a little cheaper. The salesman was very honest and talked me out of a 7.1. He showed me the difference between the two and I couldn't really tell any difference. He also told me that a supercube II was more than enough bass. He said anything else is a waste of money. He pretty much told me he would not sell me a Supercube I as it is unnecessary. He also said 2 subs with my size room is unnecessary. He said it was too close and I would not see a big enough effect since my room is so small.

Paradigm sounded really good too. I don't know if I could tell a huge difference. It was a couple of weeks apart from the def tech audition.
2 Millenia 30 Left and Right$1600
1 Millenia 30 $799, Signature W5, $1500, or Signature W5C $2000
2 Millenia ADP $1400
Sub- Paradigm Sub 12 $1999, SVS PB-13 Ultra $1799, or HSU VTF-15h $879

I almost went with the Def Tech over the summer, but I bought a TV instead. Now I have the wife talked into letting me get the speakers now with an increased budget. Whatever I buy will have to last a few years. I doubt I will be able to talk her into any additional subs any time soon. If I went with the cheaper HSU subs I could get 2 but if I get 2 one would need to be wireless.

I would prefer to buy from an actual store that way if anything goes wrong I can take it to the store and not have to worry about shipping them back or even worse having to pay to ship them back. Having said that, I am open to anything over the internet if it comes highly recommended.
Hopefully I have answered any questions that may come up with coming up with recommendations. Please help me decide what to get. I have read all kinds of reviews on speakers and I know just about what I want. I need the most help with Subs.

Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 138 Old 11-28-2010, 05:31 PM
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I don't know about those makes/models but if I had that budget I would consider Monitor Audio. I owned a pair of Studio 20 SE, best speaker I've heard.
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post #3 of 138 Old 11-28-2010, 05:32 PM
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I agree with your salesman about 7.1 in your room. With the seating against the back wall, the rear surrounds won't be advantageous. However, I will strongly disagree with your salesman about the subwoofer. You're room is 2,400 cubic feet, but it's open to other spaces. You'll definitely benefit from having more powerful and/or more subs. I would shoot for a pair of the Hsu subs. Having dual subs will not only give you more bass, it will provide flatter frequency response across more seats than a single sub.

In fact, I believe it is a good idea to put more money into your subs, and then don't pay for bass response in your mains that your subs will be better at reproducing. If you use Bass Management in your receiver, you can redirect the bass to your subs. You don't need deeper bass response out of your main speakers. Take the money you save on the speakers and put it towards a subwoofer upgrade.

For example, you could look at the Mythos 8 instead of the 10. It has a little less bass response, but otherwise looks identical to the 10. Cross it over to the sub(s) at 80 Hz and it won't matter AT ALL. The 8's are $150 per speaker cheaper than the 10's. Take that $450 and put it towards the sub upgrade. The overall system will be better.

I don't have an opinion on the Def Tech vs. the Paradigm speakers, but either should be quite good. They're both fairly high sensitivity, (93 and 94 dB respectively), so they'll both make good use of the available amplifier power. They're also both 8 Ohms, so they'll be easy to drive. Either should be fine, and probably pretty similar.

Good luck.

Craig

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Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

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post #4 of 138 Old 11-28-2010, 06:13 PM
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I think you want people to think you are spending a lot of cash and have a kick ass system. What do you want? You obviously auditioned these speakers. We don't have your ears. Who cares what your neighbors think. Get a pair of cojones instead and send me the rest of the money. I will never understand the wife factor.
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post #5 of 138 Old 11-28-2010, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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If I can spend $100 bucks on a system and I can get the great sound that is even better. I want a system that wows me. I brought in the neighbors as an example of how loud I want the system to be. I like making my wife mad. It is good fun. By the way, I decided to go with a BOSE and I sent the rest of the money to your house. Should be there in a couple of days

That is good to know that I don't need the base response out of the mains. I heard the Mythos 7 or 8 I can't remember which, but there was a huge sound difference. I picked the Def Tech 3000 center because it had a 10" sub in it. I can go back to a Mythos 10 and save 200 there.

I will check out the Monitor Audio Series. I have not heard of those.

So what I gather from the responses, either one is good. I will just go with the cheaper one.

The HSU subs sound like a good idea. The vtf-15 sounds nice but it is not wireless. The uls15 sub does not seem to be as powerful as the vtf, but it is wireless. Can I mix match the subs or do they need to be the same sub to get the benefits? Or can you make any sub wireless with some kind of adapter?
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post #6 of 138 Old 11-28-2010, 08:27 PM
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I hate to disagree with craig as he is one of the most knowledgeable posters here, but I think you might only need one sub. Ordinarily I would say get two subs, but if your seating is against the wall, one will be more than enough. Bass gets a huge boost along walls and in corners- its often in the middle of the room that is left bass deprived unless the room is sufficiently pressurized. I think one Hsu VTF-15H will sound tremendous in your listening position. IF you find one isn't enough, which I really really doubt you will, then go ahead and buy another; two will be utterly devastating. If you want wireless flexibility for subs, check out Outlaw Audio's new wireless adapter, the OAW3.
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post #7 of 138 Old 11-29-2010, 08:04 AM
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Stufine1, I'm looking at the exact same 2 speaker packages as you. The only difference is I would go Mythos 10 for LCR. My problem is no one around here has either the Paradigms Millenia nor the Def 10s on the floor so I haven't been able to audition them. My last system was a 7.1 using all Mythos 2 and a paradigm sub. I really enjoyed the system so I'm leaning toward getting the 10's. I'm doing a 5.1 this time as I don't have the space for a 7 setup.

Maybe we can do a group buy and save some $$ Anyways, hopefully your thread gets a little more feedback to help us out. I did go to the Monitor site last night and they do have some on-wall speakers, again, just wish I could hear them.
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post #8 of 138 Old 11-29-2010, 12:13 PM
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Sufine1,

I know you were slightly put off by ID brands, but given your goals you should consider the Chase Home Theater stuff. You could get 5 Sho-10's and two 18.1 subs for about half of your budget shipped. They are new but the reviews from people here that already have high quality gear have been very positive. The SHO-10s are very sensitive at 99db I believe and are designed to play clean at reference levels. Lots of good info here on the TCA Pro-10 thread as well as in the subwoofer forum areas. I am planning on getting this setup for my Dad to complete his HT upgrade.

Good luck,

Matt

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post #9 of 138 Old 11-29-2010, 06:43 PM - Thread Starter
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The Chase home theater seem really good. I really like the price. It makes me a little leery that they seem so good but are so cheap. I haven't read anything negative about them. I haven't read a lot about them being better than the speakers I am looking at.

Thanks for telling me about the Sho-10s. I have another decision to make now.
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post #10 of 138 Old 11-29-2010, 07:43 PM
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Id suggest 2 12" Outlaw LFM1-EX's (HSU). They work for me and rattle the hell out of anything loose in the room as well as bugging the crud out of my neighbors. Worked for me.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" -Arthur C. Clarke
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post #11 of 138 Old 11-29-2010, 10:01 PM
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Stick with the Def Tech mains and center if you like. Nice speakers.

But for surrounds, switch to a pair of Emotiva ERD-1's!

stay away from any brick and mortar sub.. 'òverpriced`! A pair of Epik Empires sounds awesome... or wait for the audioholics sub shootout before you pull the trigger on any sub. Don't get a single sub either...

For mains my recommendation though would be a two (or three) JTR Quintuples (and possibly a JTR Triple center)
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post #12 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

The Chase home theater seem really good. I really like the price. It makes me a little leery that they seem so good but are so cheap. I haven't read anything negative about them. I haven't read a lot about them being better than the speakers I am looking at.

Thanks for telling me about the Sho-10s. I have another decision to make now.


No problem..one of the reasons they are cheap is they are ID whereas with Paradigm and Def Tec, the middleman takes a big slice. Don't get me wrong, Paradigm(along with PSB) are two of my favorite companies for value/performance, but these chase reviews from people like MKTheater and others have me wondering why I need to pay "Audiophile" prices if I don't need to.

Read the reviews on this page that are the most recent:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...264258&page=50

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post #13 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 09:49 AM
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Hi there!

Very interesting discussion! I just wanted to add the option of a THX Certified loudspeakers set, that I did not see it being considered here.

Your Onkyo AV receiver is already THX Ultra2 Plus certified. As of so, you already have an excellent point to start from. For the other end of the cables, I think you should consider a set of THX Ultra2 loudspeakers, that are capable of fulfilling all your needs. Clean, transparent sound, elevated perception of surround effects and of course, room shacking LFE and high SPL output.

THX is the only way you can hear the true studio master at its reference volume, with no distortion, exactly as the director or musician wanted you to hear it.

As per requirements, a set of THX Ultra2 loudspeakers will be the perfect match with your receiver, offering you a room filling sound for at least 3,000 cubic feet in size, with a viewing distance of 12 feet or greater from your screen. You can read more on THX.com

As for the ultimate room shacking experience, THX recommends four certified subwoofers, each on the middle of every room wall (supposing you have a four-wall room). This will not only guarantee an unforgettable experience, but it will also aid dramatically into achieving a flat, balanced room response, avoiding the common standing-wave problems that can ruin all single or even double subwoofer installations.

With the money you are willing to spend, I am sure you can find a lot of options for your final loudspeakers set. Also, keep in mind that due to certification standards, all THX certified products are made to match with each other, even if they are not from the same manufacturer! .

Best regards,

Bill

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www.crystalaudiovideo.com
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post #14 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 10:15 AM
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had Def Tecs 7002 towers and 2500 center with a SVS 13 ultra, was nice but was seeking more clarity, seemed something was missing,, my HT room is 2800 sq ft,, for sides I have AR2As,, some vintage gear is very very good if ya have the watts to drive,,

the 7002 towers have been moved to my vinyl listen room where my highly modified VOTs (Altec voice of theater) are residing and were replaced with Magnepan 1.6QRs,, the Def Tec 2500 center remains along with the SVS sub,,

everything is driven with a Marantz SR9600, Maggies are bi-amped,,

my normal listening level is 78 to 80 db,, have seen 109 db spikes on the kaboom movies and the SVS 13 will rock the furniture and floors with ease if that is what your seeking,,

I have listen to many quality speakers and for "pure clarity" the maggies are exceptional and I would recommend checking them out with some of your best listening material,,

I have gone through several systems over the years (as many do) and can honestly say this set up is my best yet,, in my vinyl room I run a Fisher tube and Yamaha amp,,

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post #15 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Druid View Post

THX is the only way you can hear the true studio master at its reference volume, with no distortion, exactly as the director or musician wanted you to hear it.
really.... so if the cem didn't pay for thx certification, yet the equipment in question is more than adequate for the job, it's somehow NOT going to work?

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post #16 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 10:40 AM
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Ya, don't read too much into the THX certification business. A properly setup and balanced system will be all you need to think about.
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post #17 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 10:45 AM
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+1 for CHT. I have 5 SHO-10's and an 18.T duo. I came from a Paradigm Signature S1,C1,ADP1 system with a Paradigm Servo-15v2 sub, so I can compare the two. This is NOT a post to bash Paradigm as I think they are fine speakers and well made, but the reality is they are a different class of speaker than the CHT's. The Paradigm's use a "audiophile" design philosophy with diaphragm tweeters and different speaker designs for front, center, and surrounds - all "timbre matched". The CHT is a 2-way design using professional drivers and identical monopole speakers all around. There is nothing to "timbre match" as they are truly identical.

The Paradigm Signature S1,C1,ADP1 system was admittedly compact, but is VERY well reviewed and was designed to reach reference level playback. As well, I have listened to and demoed every Paradigm Signature speaker and system aside from the S6. I was a Paradigm fan, no doubt. Paradigm was, I felt, an outstanding value for the money. It sounded great but never did loud well. It would become fatiguing at reference level for HT and I blew a tweeter listening to music. After the blown tweeter my search for capable, highly dynamic speakers began.

This I'll tell you - you're not going to get close to the dynamics of the SHO-10's and 18.T without going for the S8/C5/ADP3 in the Paradigm Signature lineup. Then add a couple of their top subs. Then get out your checkbook to write a check big enough to buy a brand new car.

For that money however, you do get some very beautiful speakers. The fit, finish, and design of the Paradigm's are outstanding - no doubt. The CHT speakers are NOT Paradigms in the fit, finish department. Know that right off the bat. But they are acceptable and I have yet to have anyone even notice that they are not "perfect". In average room lighting any defects are not even noticable without close inspection. In fact, I think they look great.

But trust me, when you crank the CHT's up all your concerns about the little details will melt away. The sound is big, open, and as clear and loud as your ears will tolerate. The detail and clarity of the demos I heard of the Paradigm Signature S8/C5/ADP3/Sig Sub powered by Anthem amplifiers has always been the "standard" by which I have judged systems. I haven't A/B'd the two setups side-by-side. But I feel I the CHT's meet the detail and clarity, and likely exceeds the dynamics, of that Paradigm setup. In fact, I think the SHO-10's I have as side surrounds smoke the ADP3's for that duty. As regards measurements - polar plots, FR - I don't know which is better. All I know is that all my VERY familiar hi-rez SACD/DVD-audio/Blu-ray discs sound every bit as good to my ears as my prior Signature setup - and BETTER at moderate to higher volumes. And the fact that the surrounds are monopoles vs dipoles makes the CHT setup that much better for music.

I sold my Paradigm Signature system at half the cost I paid retail for a loss of a few thousand dollars. I don't regret it for an instant. The bottom line is that if you want your speakers to LOOK expensive and sound good, buy Paradigm. If you want your speakers to look good and SOUND expensive, buy the CHT's.
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post #18 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I really like the looks of those Sho-10s. They look like big bad movie theater speakers. The price and the looks almost have me sold. This may seem silly but the reason why I want such a nice system I don't want to be left thinking, I could have done better. With these speakers I could very well be doing this.

Chase seems like a new company. They could be very good products and could rival Def Tech and Paradigm. It is an expensive gamble. I would go with the Sho-10 5 pack with the 2 Monoliths if I were to do it.

I can't afford 4 subs and from what I have read that just because something is not THX certified it still sounds pretty good. Not going with the THX could save me a lot of money. Plus no one that I have talked to recommended any THX speakers.

Gooddoc -

I have read your reviews and you are the one who really makes me want to buy them. I actually like the big bulky look of the speakers. I don't care how they look I care how they sound. If there were more people like you singing the praises of these speakers I probably would. However, there are only a couple of you. Even though I haven't heard anything negative it still makes me nervous.
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post #19 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 11:45 AM
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Well, I can't make the decision for you, that's for sure . I had AT LEAST as many reservations as you. At least you don't have to explain to your wife why you're selling, at half price, the speakers off your walls that you only bought two years ago...at a price she nearly had a heart attack over.
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post #20 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 12:12 PM
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Also, your room is 20X15, correct? Does that mean your listening position is 13 ft. or greater? Or better yet, what is the distance to your MLP?
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post #21 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Druid View Post

THX is the only way you can hear the true studio master at its reference volume, with no distortion, exactly as the director or musician wanted you to hear it.

That's hilarious.

I could buy

Marantz AV7005 (not THX)
Emotiva PMA-7350 (not THX)
7 JTR Quintuples (not THX)
4 TC Sounds Pro-5100s tuned to ~13hz (DIY... certainly not THX)


and hear it better and with less distortion than pretty much any THX Ultra 2 certified system could hope for... while paying a quarter as much. The only electronic up there that's even questionable would be the processor, simply because I don't know the specifics of it.

Now if THX certification were free and offered to any product, i might agree. But as it is, THX means nothing.
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post #22 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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The mlp is 13 feet away from the TV.
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post #23 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

Chase seems like a new company. They could be very good products and could rival Def Tech and Paradigm. It is an expensive gamble. I would go with the Sho-10 5 pack with the 2 Monoliths if I were to do it.

CHT IS a new company. If there is one thing I am absolutely, 100% certain about, it is that there is NOTHING made by Paradigm or Def Tech anywhere close to your budget that will come close to the CHT's in performance for HT and also for music if you like to crank it on occasion. I've heard both of them extensively. There may be better than the SHO-10's out there, but it's NOT Def Tech and Paradigm. JTR, Gedlee...at that point we can start talking about improvements that might happen over the CHT's...
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post #24 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

The mlp is 13 feet away from the TV.

Reference volume at 13 ft. is a tough hurdle to cross for ANY audiophile speaker design (with a diaphragm tweeter) since the SPL at 1 meter will have to be around 119 dB to reach 105 dB at the MLP. Quite frankly, even if you got one that could do it, there will certainly be no headroom left. And, I'll repeat, it won't be in your budget. Contrast that with the CD/horn present in the SHO-10 that can do 130 dB and the 10" Pro driver that will do over 125 dB.
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post #25 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 03:26 PM
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Too lazy to read all the responses, maybe my idea was already posted by another guy.....get a set of matched powered speakers by mackie, focal, genelec used...use your pre-amp section on you gear and be done with the guess work.
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post #26 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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When I say I am listening at reference level, I mean that I am going to listen to it loud every once in a while. I was trying to use the lingo LOL.

You sound like a salesman for Chase . If not you should be, you have me really considering getting these.
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post #27 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishmael408 View Post

Too lazy to read all the responses, maybe my idea was already posted by another guy.....get a set of matched powered speakers by mackie, focal, genelec used...use your pre-amp section on you gear and be done with the guess work.

I feel ya', by the time you get to post number two it does start to seem like a lot of work.

Ron
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post #28 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stufine1 View Post

When I say I am listening at reference level, I mean that I am going to listen to it loud every once in a while. I was trying to use the lingo LOL.

You sound like a salesman for Chase . If not you should be, you have me really considering getting these.

Just a happy customer . And realize that I am a fan of speakers that meet my performance goals: High sensitivity, high directivity, high power handling, great SQ. If I wanted to spend more money I have no doubt I would also be happy with a JTR system...or Gedlee Summas would be nice . But CHT hit the sweet spot for performance and price.
Honestly, I could care less what you buy. It's just that I have had some of the speakers you are looking at and I have spent way less for way more - just figured I would pass that along to you. That's what this forum is all about, no?. Either way, I wish you luck with your purchase and I'm sure you'll be happy whatever way you go
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post #29 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 05:44 PM
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CHT PRO/SHO-10's will absolutely be your best bang for your buck.

Television: Mitsubishi WD65737 DLP
Processor: Emotiva UMC-200
Amps: Carver AV 806x/Behringer EP4000
Mains: DCM TimeFrame 600 Center: AT 453C
Surrounds: AT 251.1 Sub: Danley DTS-10
Blu Ray: Panasonic DMP-BD655
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post #30 of 138 Old 11-30-2010, 06:41 PM
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