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Danley SH-50/SH-60 for dedicated Home Theater

127K views 751 replies 93 participants last post by  mahandave 
#1 ·
Hello!


Right now I am considering going with either Danley's SH-50 or SH-60 as FCR for a pretty high end home theater setup.


My upcoming dedicated room will be about 22'x19'x12'. I have been using 5x Genelec 1037Cs for the past couple of years. Before that I made my experiences with horn speakers: Klipschhorn, THX ULTRA 2, JBLs and even Avantgarde Acoustics at some point. I generally like the sound signature of horn speakers.


Lately I bought a Seaton Catalyst 12C to benchmark it against the Genelecs - you can read about it over here: http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=4897368


In short: I am not quite satisfied with the relative performance of the Catalyst versus the Genelecs - despite its much greater dynamic headroom.


So I am thinking about going back to my first love - horn speakers. And that's were Danley enters the picture...


I would appreciate it to get some advice on the following points:


- I am considering the SH-50 or the SH-60. Both will work in my setup and the ~12 feet listening distance. I noticed that the driver/component configuration is different (6x4" versus 4x5"). I take it the SH-60 is the more recent design. What are the differences between those two regarding "sound quality" (other than the different dispersion)?


- Both speaker come in a passive and active version. The active uses IcePower moduls with DSP crossovers just like the Seaton Catalyst does (they use the same OEM for the amps). My question is: Would the version with passive crossovers together with a decent external amp (I am thinking about the MC2 MC 1250) give me "better sound quality" compared to the powered version? I guess the tri-amplified Class D amp with digital crossovers has its advantages but I don't like the concept of going through additional A/D-D/A steps.


I take it Tom Danley himself uses the passive version together with external amps. Is SQ the reason for that? (Note: I don't have any amps right now that I could simply use - so the question is whether to buy the "turn key active version" or the passive one with appropriate amps).


- Are there any European Danley dealers listening?


I am looking forward to any advice! Thanks.


- Walter
 
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#556 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterkit
Yes still looking forward to theLion's review...
I know... ;-)



It certainly is the thoughest speaker to evaluate objectively. It takes months to get used to the sound signature which is like nothing else. Straight "out of the box" in a room without extensive treatment and of standard size, without any EQ I will go as far as saying this: Get yourself a Seaton Catalyst and be done with it. If you try to build something really special it takes alot of effort to get the best out of the Danley's. A rather large room with excellent accoustic treatment, best possible signal chain, optimized speaker placement and state of the art "room correction" to get the frequency response "smooth enough" - than you can reach a level of performance that is hardly comparable with "standard speaker designs".
 
#558 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLion
I know... ;-)



It certainly is the thoughest speaker to evaluate objectively. It takes months to get used to the sound signature which is like nothing else. Straight "out of the box" in a room without extensive treatment and of standard size, without any EQ I will go as far as saying this: Get yourself a Seaton Catalyst and be done with it. If you try to build something really special it takes alot of effort to get the best out of the Danley's. A rather large room with excellent accoustic treatment, best possible signal chain, optimized speaker placement and state of the art "room correction" to get the frequency response "smooth enough" - than you can reach a level of performance that is hardly comparable with "standard speaker designs".
Interesting.


From Ivan's subjective description of the differences between the SH50 and the SM60, it appears that the tonal balance of the SH50 is weighted more toward to the bass/mid-bass/midrange than the SM60.


In my system, I finally figured out a way to get the SM60M's off the floor! I hung the screen and changed the room layout to allow the SM60M's to be at a little above ear height and flanking the screen. The angled side is flush with the left/right walls.


Changes to earlier impressions due to new (more ideal) placement:


Soundstage wider (expected) and deeper (unexpected)


Getting more ceiling bounce (naturally, from a 7' attic ceiling) which until treated, has muddied up the pure stereo imaging a bit. Room treatments to the rescue ASAP!


When the speakers were sitting directly on the floor, the floor bounce created an artificial warmth and also precluded the direct ceiling bounce from hitting the listener position within the time window for the precedence effect to smear the sound image.


Now that the L/R SM60M's are aligned in height and room placement with the SH100's (LS/RS) the multichannel experience is even more immersive and less cluttered by the room boundary interaction.


As to the difficulty of placing these Synergy design speakers in a given room:


The directivity alone solves many issues present in rooms.

The tonal balance all across the pattern, vertically and horizontally also simplifies the interaction with the room, at least in terms of tonal consistency.


Of course, for the ultimate optimization, room treatments and speaker placement vis a vis wall boundaries and the listener position must be tweaked. I am impressed with how much EASIER the Synergy design makes this tweaking process, especially when using both ears and measurements in tandem.


However, the difference in tonal weight balance between your SH50's and the SM60M's to which I refer may be making it more difficult to get the tonal balance you are looking for at the listener position.


More details on the issues you have been seeing in your space and the solutions you have tried would be helpful to all. No dropping an information grenade in the tank and then running for cover!
 
#559 ·
TheLion,


Did you ever post your impressions on the Danley speakers?


Thanks
 
#560 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS /forum/post/20680581


TheLion,


Did you ever post your impressions on the Danley speakers?


Thanks

Not quite yet. Let me just say that after much refinement in setup and calibration the SH-50 up there with the best I have heard. In a very special way that certainly is a love or hate kind of thing.


More when I made up my mind about all aspects.
 
#561 ·
Kutlow did you buy any DSL subs yet?(DBH218LC)


And could someone tell me their opinions of the SM60F vs SH100B?


I have been looking at the SH line and have read as much as I can. Cant seem to ever get DSL to return emails to me but atleast their are forum members here to help. To me the difference is the price which is about 500 a speaker. The 100B I think can reach down deeper which would be nice. And does anyone know the crossover point for the 100B's TH?
 
#562 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm /forum/post/20688711


And could someone tell me their opinions of the SM60F vs SH100B?

Earlier it was mentioned that the SH100(B)'s are among the first products DSL made and considered "more primitive" Synergy Horns than recent products. I have only heard the SM60F's but would guess the SH100B's to be less of a point source and behave less coherent in directivity and phase.


The latter two you could check by comparing the spec sheets and polar diagrams, available from Danley's site.
 
#563 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ettepet /forum/post/20693100


Earlier it was mentioned that the SH100(B)'s are among the first products DSL made and considered "more primitive" Synergy Horns than recent products. I have only heard the SM60F's but would guess the SH100B's to be less of a point source and behave less coherent in directivity and phase.


The latter two you could check by comparing the spec sheets and polar diagrams, available from Danley's site.

Hey Ettepet,


How do you like you DSL speakers?

How do they compare to your Seatons?
 
#564 ·
The SM60F seems to be able to excel over the 100b above 100hz. Everything lower is better with the 100B due to its TH.


SM60F seems to be the better sensitivity chart by a long shot but you cant always go by sensitivity readings.


I keep looking at budget minded SH's and trying to figure what I would lose in comparison to the SH50. I was going to build a dual 15 horn type setup for monster impact from 50-200hz. Those are the areas I was wanting more of which generally is displayed in pro audio speakers meant for bigger cinemas.


Now I am thinking that with the SH50 I would be fine but I am still trying to see if there is a more budget friendly option. SH100 was the first thought but I wanted to have alot more of the mid bass slam. SO I started looking more at the 100B and 60F. Being that these two are closer in price is the other reason for me wanting to compare them.


But 60F vs SH50 is the sound drastic? Meaning night and day or just more of?
 
#565 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by parapet /forum/post/20693274


Hey Ettepet,


How do you like you DSL speakers?

How do they compare to your Seatons?

I was extremely impressed by them a couple of weeks ago (posted about it here a while back). Haven't listened to them since.



I am somewhat puzzled why the SH50's would not sound superb straight out of the box. They add the only thing the SM60F's lack in pure stereo: lower (
 
#566 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm /forum/post/20688711


Kutlow did you buy any DSL subs yet?(DBH218LC)


And could someone tell me their opinions of the SM60F vs SH100B?


I have been looking at the SH line and have read as much as I can. Cant seem to ever get DSL to return emails to me but atleast their are forum members here to help. To me the difference is the price which is about 500 a speaker. The 100B I think can reach down deeper which would be nice. And does anyone know the crossover point for the 100B's TH?

They are really very different "animals" with very different intended applications.


The patterns are very different, the low freq output is very different and so forth.


Who have you been sending Emails to at Danley? I will be sure to remind them.


There is a electronic device that is much more personal than email and gets a much faster response. It is called a telephone. A lot of people are not aware of this device now a days. HA-HA


I don't understand the last part of you question "the crossover point for hte 100B's TH?" Maybe you can state it a different way. I suggest a highpass for the 100B around 40Hz. But depending on how hard you run it, it could be lower.


The 100B goes about an octave lower than the SM60F.
 
#567 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ettepet /forum/post/20693100


Earlier it was mentioned that the SH100(B)'s are among the first products DSL made and considered "more primitive" Synergy Horns than recent products. I have only heard the SM60F's but would guess the SH100B's to be less of a point source and behave less coherent in directivity and phase.


The latter two you could check by comparing the spec sheets and polar diagrams, available from Danley's site.

While the SH100 and 100B are early Danley products, that in no way makes them "primitive".


When a product is done well, it will retain its "presence". Both of theose products are still very good sellers.


This last week I was doing system alignment in a 450 seat performing arts theatre that has a 5.1 surround system for movies.


SH100B's for LCR and Sh100's for surrounds. I am still impressed with the sound those products produce. Not only how loud (we had real power on them), but how clean and full they are.
 
#568 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm /forum/post/20693302


But 60F vs SH50 is the sound drastic? Meaning night and day or just more of?

If you discount the lower extension of the SH50 and the extra output capability of the SH50, then it gets hard.


On some material I like the SH50 better. On other material I like the SM60F better.


And it is not style of material-just that some stuff sounds better on one than the other. Once you add a sub into the mix, the low freq extension is non issue-at least for home useage. In professional usage-it depends on how muc output is needed and whether the subs are run on an aux or not that determines which way I go in a design.


I would not let "sound quality" be my deciding factor. Other things-size-price-pattern-extension-output should be the driving factors.
 
#569 ·
Ivan,


I have been emailing Scott. I figured I would give him a little while to get back because the show you were all going to but that has since passed. I never heard back from him and I sent quite a few emails. Last I looked it has been almost a month since my last email I sent him. Didn't want to be overbearing an all. I live in Australia and its hard with four children and other stuff going on to try and call when USA is awake. I call family at times back home(USA) but not at business hours. BUT this thread and forum has helped out alot.


In regards top the 100B TH crossover point, I was mainly wondering about 100hz and up. I was wondering about the crossover point because I have always missed the midbass slam that movies have with my current speakers. I know my next speaker choice will be a MASSIVE upgrade.(DSL product) But I have heard others with mains that have multiple 15's and the make mine seem like $2 headphones.


I currently have SLA's I built and they do sound very clear and clean. When I have compared to other speakers that is the first thing I notice. Thats why I was curious of the midbass slam potential of the 100B, SH50 and 60F.


When using either 100B or the SH50 can they be used in a live application such as bass guitar?


I will be slowly building my dedicated HT room and will have one of the three speakers for my L/C/R. I also like to play bass guitar which would be nice if I could use my L/R speaker to play through. Not a priority just curious if I could.
 
#572 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm /forum/post/20700875


Ivan,


I have been emailing Scott. I figured I would give him a little while to get back because the show you were all going to but that has since passed. I never heard back from him and I sent quite a few emails. Last I looked it has been almost a month since my last email I sent him. Didn't want to be overbearing an all. I live in Australia and its hard with four children and other stuff going on to try and call when USA is awake. I call family at times back home(USA) but not at business hours. BUT this thread and forum has helped out alot.


In regards top the 100B TH crossover point, I was mainly wondering about 100hz and up. I was wondering about the crossover point because I have always missed the midbass slam that movies have with my current speakers. I know my next speaker choice will be a MASSIVE upgrade.(DSL product) But I have heard others with mains that have multiple 15's and the make mine seem like $2 headphones.


I currently have SLA's I built and they do sound very clear and clean. When I have compared to other speakers that is the first thing I notice. Thats why I was curious of the midbass slam potential of the 100B, SH50 and 60F.


When using either 100B or the SH50 can they be used in a live application such as bass guitar?


I will be slowly building my dedicated HT room and will have one of the three speakers for my L/C/R. I also like to play bass guitar which would be nice if I could use my L/R speaker to play through. Not a priority just curious if I could.

Scott has been on vacation for the last little bit-that may be part of the reason he has not gotten back with you. We are very busy right now and it takes time to catch up on emails. I will mention it to him.


The "midbass" of the SH10B is fine-up to the limits of the loudspeaker. Remember that almost all of the Danley line is designed for spaces much larger than home use-so there is a much greater capability there. You really have to compare the output capbilities to professional type loudspeakers.


Are there speakers with more "slam"-sure-we have plenty and lots of other people have them as well.


But how much do you really need? Consider that the SH100B will easily produce levels in the mid 120dB range at 1M. So at 2M you are looking at around 120dB. At 4M you are loooking around 115dB ish.


Is that loud enough for you? I can't say.


I would not suggest the SH50 as a bass guitar loudspeaker. The reason is that it will not go low enough (flat without low end boost) to reproduce the low notes on the bass guitar.


The SH100B will do a much better job of that. Depending on how many strings you have. But show me a regular bass guitar cabinet that can get down to 30Hz flat.


But what will it "sound like". That is a completely different situation.


All of our products are designed for as accurate reproduction of the input signal as possible,


VERY OFTEN in musical instruments-the loudspeaker system is part of the musical system, and is not very accurate-but has a particular "sound" that the musician is looking for.


Switching to a "better" loudspeaker is often a disssapointment.


Ask any Marshall user who has switched to JBL or EV drivers.


Ask any B3/Leslie 147 player who has "updated" the drivers to more hi fi drivers.


It is not long before they go back to something that gives a particular "tone".


But give it a try, Some players may like it better-other may not.


In the area of musical instruments/amps there are HUGE differences in tone, that make different people like one over the other.


A guy looking for a Fender twin type sound is simply not going to be happy with a Marshall setup-and vice versa.
 
#573 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm /forum/post/20701597


Three SH50's would be nice although I might not be able to afford three of them.

Then get a pair of SH50's or Sh60's for the sides and a SH100 for the middle.


It will have a wider coverage-be smaller and cost less and be more than capable.
 
#574 ·
Thanks Ivan about the explanation about Scott. I wasn't too worried because I am not in a rush to buy yet because I still have to save up for them. PLUS Scott normally has always been good with emails.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver /forum/post/20701886


Then get a pair of SH50's or Sh60's for the sides and a SH100 for the middle.


It will have a wider coverage-be smaller and cost less and be more than capable.

That is the conclusion I have been thinking about. Just need to save for the rest as I was originally just thinking of 60Fs for budget but then after reading more started to rethink about the SH50s.


As far as bass cabinets I have always liked a very hi-fi type sound. Meaning all the bass cabinets I have liked have been able to play music through the cabinet very cleanly. The sound as if there are just PA speakers. Now I could always build a cabinet for my 6 string bass but I just was wondering about the possibilities of not having to buy anything else for playing at home in my dedicated room.


Either way I could always try and build a "sub," for my bass guitar to go along with the SH50/60. Just a thought.


And Ivan what should I compare the SH50's against as far as the Krix lineup?


Krix is local to me and I have heard many of their lineup because they are 5 minutes away. I have heard their pro audio/cinema stuff and just wondered in regards to what you thought would be comparable.

I am guessing that a SH50 could replace one of these?
http://www.krix.com.au/Product/Detail.aspx?p=97&id=76

http://www.krix.com.au/Product/Detail.aspx?p=45&id=45

These are the two speakers I have heard from Krix quite a bit at their factory. I am not suggesting that DSL sounds anything like them I am just wondering what DSL products are competing with is all.


Once again Thanks for your input. I will be choosing the DSL speakers because I am wanting alot more than the Krix can offer but its nice to know what compares and what doesn't. They are the only thing near me and I wont get the chance to come to Georgia for atleast a few years.
 
#575 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm /forum/post/20702054


And Ivan what should I compare the SH50's against as far as the Krix lineup?


Krix is local to me and I have heard many of their lineup because they are 5 minutes away. I have heard their pro audio/cinema stuff and just wondered in regards to what you thought would be comparable.

I am guessing that a SH50 could replace one of these?
http://www.krix.com.au/Product/Detail.aspx?p=97&id=76

http://www.krix.com.au/Product/Detail.aspx?p=45&id=45

These are the two speakers I have heard from Krix quite a bit at their factory. I am not suggesting that DSL sounds anything like them I am just wondering what DSL products are competing with is all.


Once again Thanks for your input. I will be choosing the DSL speakers because I am wanting alot more than the Krix can offer but its nice to know what compares and what doesn't. They are the only thing near me and I wont get the chance to come to Georgia for atleast a few years.

I have never heard of those loudspeakers-but that doesn't say much-especially since their target market is in a different world that I "live in".


But some thoughts from what I saw.


I didn't see any measured responses (amplitude or phase)-only numbers that mention "in room response". This means that the loudspeakers are in ground plane position and you are getting room gain.


Without any measurements-there is no way to even begin to guess at how they compare sound wise. And even then, measurements on tell part of the story. Your ears tell the rest.


So the low freq numbers suggest a lower freq response than you would get outside in a free field situation.


Also the whole concept that Danley is about is having a single point source. When the individual loudspeaker drivers are seperated (as in the link) you are going to have various "issues"-such as combfiltering and imageing.


The Danely products use real 13 ply baltic birch plywood-not MDF-which holds up MUCH longer-especially when moved around. Not much of an issue in a home setup-but very important in portable sound.
 
#576 ·
I didn't think they would compare but I figured I would ask. Danleys point source motto is exactly what I want so thats why I stopped listening to the Krix line up. Just wondered what they compete against. Maybe JBL or EAW stuff I guess.


Anyways do you guys have a link for the different protective layers you can add to your DSL speakers?


Are the finishes all flat black? Meaning if wanting black are they shiny or no?


I think once I get my pair I will use them for more than just HT.
 
#577 ·
Danley can do just about any finish you want. Have a look at some pics on their web page. I like the zebrawood.


That krix stuff looks like jbl clones. Price isn't great coming from a company I believe most haven't heard of. I don't like their in room and only +- 10 dB spec.
 
#578 ·
I didn't figure they(Krix) would be a very good comparison considering what they are aimed. PLUS the Krix I believe I could build and the price I cant justify paying. I love the fact that I would never try to tackle a DIY version of the SH's and dont mind paying more for a finished speaker.


And another quick question for everyone how do you read the sensitivty chart from DSL?


I was looking at the subs and the DTS10 was almost the same chart as the TH221. Then I looked at the TH50, DTS20 and DBH218. The DTS and DBH had a 93db roughly @20hz and the TH50 was only 90db. Am I reading these correctly?


If I am I did not think the DTS20 would be more powerful than the TH50 at 20hz. And secondly I couldn't believe how powerful the DBH is at 20hz. WOW.


SO I must be bot looking at something correctly because I cant believe that the DTS10 would be the same at 20hz as the TH221.


OK 2.83v was what I forgot. SO how do you figure out what these charts will read with suggested power to them as far as the TH's?


Either way 2.83v on the TH221 is providing roughly 90db at 15hz. Holy .....WOW.


Brandon did you ever get a chance to hear the TH221?
 
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