The Official Procella Audio Speakers Owners thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 238 Old 09-13-2011, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobboNL View Post

Anymore details of the DA-1400 available yet ?

Also interested in the answers on Ben's questions above.

Well, at CEDIA, we had the working prototype of the DA-1400 sitting on the round table outside our sound room. Anders Uggelberg was there for three days, talking with people about the products, including the DA-1400. It was a bit like the 'kitchen table sessions with Anders'.

Several people provided their input and feedback (pun intended) on the DA-1400, they were well-known cinema designers and also members of this forum. According to Anders, this resulted in a 'truly brilliant' concept on how the DSP will function and support our products.

Those details are now being prepared in a spec sheet, soon to be published on our website. I will let you know when it goes up.


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post #62 of 238 Old 10-01-2011, 05:55 AM
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Guess I am late to this party! Just goes to show that I should venture out further in the forum once and awhile.

Shawn Byrne
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post #63 of 238 Old 10-01-2011, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SierraMikeBravo View Post

Guess I am late to this party! Just goes to show that I should venture out further in the forum once and awhile.

Aren't you even a dealer too? :-)


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post #64 of 238 Old 10-02-2011, 01:24 PM
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Yep...Chuck took pity on me and said sure, why not.

Shawn Byrne
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post #65 of 238 Old 10-06-2011, 11:42 PM
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Check out this review of the P6 and P15 that was just published by Swedish/Norwegian magazine Bild & Ljud Hemma:

"Swedish Procella is a rising star in home theater heaven, and after a hot encounter with their P6 and P15, we must agree that all the praise is well deserved!" and "Procella speakers are the best cinema speakers we have heard"

You can find the English translation of the review via the link on our website: http://www.procella-audio.com


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post #66 of 238 Old 10-13-2011, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerben Van Duyl View Post

Check out this review of the P6 and P15 that was just published by Swedish/Norwegian magazine Bild & Ljud Hemma:

"Swedish Procella is a rising star in home theater heaven, and after a hot encounter with their P6 and P15, we must agree that all the praise is well deserved!" and "Procella speakers are the best cinema speakers we have heard"

You can find the English translation of the review via the link on our website: http://www.procella-audio.com

I read that review, and I felt proud about having the P6/P15 setup in my own home theater. It is very refreshing seeing a speaker company focus on pushing the envelope of what is possible for home theater sound using science and engineering. There are other great speaker companies, but it is now clear after all the awards and respect they have earned from custom installers, that Procella is on that relatively short list of Great speaker manufacturers.

Keep up the great work guys!

Quick question, could you use your new 4 channel amplifiers to power 4 P6's for example? Not the P610, just the regular P6.


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post #67 of 238 Old 10-14-2011, 12:17 AM
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Thanks! We enjoy what we are doing and the results speak for themselves.

Yes, the DA-1400 will be used to power all our products: 2 x P610, 4 x P6, 4 x P8, 4 x P10SI, 2 x P10, 2 x P15, and bridged as 2 x 700W: 1 x P18, 1 x P815. And soon, 1 x P860!

Yes, we are planning our first production of P860, for very large rooms up to 24m long. Any takers?


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post #68 of 238 Old 10-14-2011, 01:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerben Van Duyl View Post

Thanks! We enjoy what we are doing and the results speak for themselves.

Yes, the DA-1400 will be used to power all our products: 2 x P610, 4 x P6, 4 x P8, 4 x P10SI, 2 x P10, 2 x P15, and bridged as 2 x 700W: 1 x P18, 1 x P815. And soon, 1 x P860!

Yes, we are planning our first production of P860, for very large rooms up to 24m long. Any takers?

Any thoughts in the future about offering a DA-1400 variation other than 4 channel? Maybe also a 3 channel offering (DA-1050) and a 2 channel offering (DA-700)? Then you could power various satellite configurations as follows:

DA-1050 plus DA-700 powers a 5 satellite setup (P6 or P8)

DA-1400 plus DA-1050 powers a 7 satellite setup (P6 or P8)

DA-1400 plus DA-1400 powers a 5 satellite setup (3 P610 up front and 2 P6 or P8 for surrounds )

DA-1400 plus DA-1400 plus DA-700 powers a 7 satellite setup (3 P610 up front and 4 P6 or P8 for surrounds/surround back)

Then all the bases are covered and we could have Procella amps driving our Procella speakers!

BTW, what is a P860? Sounds BIG!


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post #69 of 238 Old 10-14-2011, 03:25 AM
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Gerben,

after reading, is my understanding correct that the P610 is a P6 unit mounted on a P10-SI? So it's possible to buy the P6's on their own and then add the P10-SI's later if desired? Would doing this effectively make the P6 into a P610 or would there be any differences?

Must the P610 be used with the DA-1400?


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post #70 of 238 Old 10-14-2011, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

after reading, is my understanding correct that the P610 is a P6 unit mounted on a P10-SI? So it's possible to buy the P6's on their own and then add the P10-SI's later if desired? Would doing this effectively make the P6 into a P610 or would there be any differences?

Yes, correct. Yes, any P6 can be made into a P610 by adding a P10-SI. No difference: P610 = P6 + P10-SI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Must the P610 be used with the DA-1400?

The P610 is a bi-amplified loudspeaker, which therefore requires two suitable power amps and a signal DSP to split the signal between bass and mid/high. The DA-1400 offers such power amps, two very capable DSP (one per pair of amps) and we pre-programme those to do the signal splitting.
But any DSP can be used, and any amps can be used, but the DSP must be suitably programmed. So the DA-1400 will be the amp/DSP of choice.


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post #71 of 238 Old 10-14-2011, 03:44 PM
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Gerben, thanks for the prompt reply.

So the P6 (and P8) have holes in the base for mounting them on the P10/P15 units (as they appear in the photos)? Does that mean that if I got just the P6/P8 units, I could mount them on speaker stands using those mounting holes? I'm considering the idea of getting just the P6's (or P8's, or possibly a combination of P8's and P6's), and using them with my existing subs and seeing how they sound in that combo.

BTW, I was wondering why the larger P8 has a higher -3db (80Hz) than the P6 (70Hz).


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post #72 of 238 Old 10-15-2011, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Any thoughts in the future about offering a DA-1400 variation other than 4 channel?

No, 4-channel amps only, starting with the DA-1400. Why? Because amp modules come in pairs, so a 3, 5 or 7-channel version is out of the question. Stereo? Just bridge the DA-1400 to a whopping 2 x 700W into 8Ohm!

Just use the channels you don't use for your LCR and surrounds for your subs: P10-SI balancing subs, or passive P10 or P15 (you will be able to order all our subs without the built-in amp and use your DA-1400 instead).

Example: Medium sized room with 3 x P610, 6 x P6 and 2 x P15 needs 16 channels of amp, so that is four DA-1400, providing 4 x 4 x 350W = 5,600 Watt!


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post #73 of 238 Old 10-15-2011, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

So the P6 (and P8) have holes in the base for mounting them on the P10/P15 units (as they appear in the photos)? Does that mean that if I got just the P6/P8 units, I could mount them on speaker stands using those mounting holes? I'm considering the idea of getting just the P6's (or P8's, or possibly a combination of P8's and P6's), and using them with my existing subs and seeing how they sound in that combo.

Yes, this is possible. The attachment holes for the bracket are in fact on the back, and the bracket extends from the back to below the speaker, where a single 10mm bolt attaches it to the LF815 or P10-SI.

1) The bolt hole that goes into the LF815 or the P10-SI is also the central point of gravity: the speaker is balanced around this pivot point and can therefore be secured with only one bolt.
2) The bolt hole that goes into the LF815 or the P10-SI is also the acoustic centre of the speaker: the speaker pivots around the origination point of the Mid/Hi frequencies, preserving the Time Domain source point when toed in.
3) On the P8 only: the bracket that secures the P8 to the LF815 can also be mounted upside-down, which then positions the mounting hole above the P8: you can use this to mount the P8 to the ceiling or to rigging for flying the P8 (use normal 10mm flying gear, and always use a security cable which you must bolt onto the P8 cabinet).

For your purpose: create a solid pedestal, that must have a central 10mm bolt hole to receive the bolt that fixes the P8/P6 bracket onto your pedestal. Just order a set of brackets from us and don't forget to order the bolts as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

BTW, I was wondering why the larger P8 has a higher -3db (80Hz) than the P6 (70Hz).

The -3dB point is a relative measurement, of a frequency that is played 3dB softer that the peak performance of that loudspeaker. The P8 plays twice as loud as the P6, hence the ability to be used at twice the listening distance. The curve of the P6 and a the P8 are not entirely the same, resulting in a different -3dB frequency for each. But, the -3dB of the P8 will still be almost twice as loud as the P6! It is a relative point...

Does this work as an analogy?: If you go down 1,000 feet from the summit of Mount McKinley, you will be at 19,320 feet. If you go down 1,000 feet from the summit of Mount Everest, you will be at 28,029 ft, or still 8,000 feet higher than the peak of McKinley at 20,320...


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post #74 of 238 Old 10-15-2011, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gerben Van Duyl View Post

No, 4-channel amps only, starting with the DA-1400. Why? Because amp modules come in pairs, so a 3, 5 or 7-channel version is out of the question. Stereo? Just bridge the DA-1400 to a whopping 2 x 700W into 8Ohm!

Just use the channels you don't use for your LCR and surrounds for your subs: P10-SI balancing subs, or passive P10 or P15 (you will be able to order all our subs without the built-in amp and use your DA-1400 instead).

Example: Medium sized room with 3 x P610, 6 x P6 and 2 x P15 needs 16 channels of amp, so that is four DA-1400, providing 4 x 4 x 350W = 5,600 Watt!

Great, makes sense. Thanks.


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post #75 of 238 Old 10-16-2011, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Will there be variations on the DA-1400 where you can leave out the dsp? I am just thinking if someone is using it to power a passive P8 or P6, the dsp is unnecessary, no?


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post #76 of 238 Old 11-03-2011, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Will there be variations on the DA-1400 where you can leave out the dsp? I am just thinking if someone is using it to power a passive P8 or P6, the dsp is unnecessary, no?

(Apologies for the delay, I have been out kayaking with the whales and the dolphins, and the sharks... somewhere on the East Australian coast...)
No, no version without DSP. Costs too much to leave it out, is the reality of (even modest) mass production. In the future we will release a S/W for the DA-1400 that you can use from your laptop to re-programme the EQ settings per DSP channel. Total control room EQ anyone?


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post #77 of 238 Old 11-11-2011, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerben Van Duyl View Post

(Apologies for the delay, I have been out kayaking with the whales and the dolphins, and the sharks... somewhere on the East Australian coast...)
No, no version without DSP. Costs too much to leave it out, is the reality of (even modest) mass production. In the future we will release a S/W for the DA-1400 that you can use from your laptop to re-programme the EQ settings per DSP channel. Total control room EQ anyone?

Wow. That sounds Extremely useful.


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post #78 of 238 Old 12-07-2011, 06:38 PM
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Here they are !



Now all I need is a room to put them in !!

Peter M


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post #79 of 238 Old 12-09-2011, 01:12 AM - Thread Starter
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A question on the P610 for home theater usage. Dennis Erksine held the view (at least a year or two ago in a thread here that full range satellites are not ideal the vast majority of the time because the ideal placement for imaging is almost never the best placement for bass sources, and the subwoofer as the bass source is better as you can find the best spot for the sub by moving it (I am paraphrasing). I don't want to speak for Dennis, and I may have misunderstood, and that is why I linked his original comments.

So what is thought behind a full range satellite? Just an option for those that wish to have full range satellites, or does Procella feel that full range satellites are useful in some applications and would be crossed over below 80 hz? Thanks


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post #80 of 238 Old 12-09-2011, 03:50 AM
 
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Dennis is correct as usual

The best spot for a good bass response is not the best spot for other frequencies. We know that if you move the sub you will get a different bass response depending where it is placed in the room. You wouldn't want to add bass with full range speakers that is going to mess up the frequency response in the room. If you need more bass get better subs or add more subs especially if you only have one. With proper placement this will help the bass response in a room.

Also, having the sub handle the bass also helps with dynamics and distortion. If the speakers are not being pushed to their low frequency limit they will play louder and with less distortion.

It doesn't matter the size of the speakers in small rooms speaker shouldn't run full range. Plus very few speakers have the capability to be full range into the sub frequencies. I know Procella with their 2 piece system is an exception but there are times when full range is warranted and they give you that flexibility.
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post #81 of 238 Old 12-09-2011, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Dennis is correct as usual

The best spot for a good bass response is not the best spot for other frequencies. We know that if you move the sub you will get a different bass response depending where it is placed in the room. You wouldn't want to add bass with full range speakers that is going to mess up the frequency response in the room. If you need more bass get better subs or add more subs especially if you only have one. With proper placement this will help the bass response in a room.

Also, having the sub handle the bass also helps with dynamics and distortion. If the speakers are not being pushed to their low frequency limit they will play louder and with less distortion.

It doesn't matter the size of the speakers in small rooms speaker shouldn't run full range. Plus very few speakers have the capability to be full range into the sub frequencies. I know Procella with their 2 piece system is an exception but there are times when full range is warranted and they give you that flexibility.

That sounds about right. It could also just be a situation where it is beneficial having a speaker (like the P610) that can play well below the 80 hz cross with authority since crossovers aren't brick walls...they roll off. Plus The P610 would also probably be more dynamic and louder than just a P6....and certain rooms may require that.


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post #82 of 238 Old 12-10-2011, 05:50 PM
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Nice first impressions from AirBenji over in his theater build thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post21302182

"So Michel (Chartrand Family Theater) came to my house this weekend to pick up his Procella speakers. We set up the front three in my house and watched The Incredibles. And we only set up the P6 (didn't include the 10" woofer because I don't have bi-amping ability). We didn't run Audyssey or anything - just plugged them in and went for it.

Let me also say that I was pretty skeptical. I have always liked my speakers (PSB Image) a lot and the Procellas come with a pretty big price tag. As soon as we turned them on, my impression was this: Worth. Every. Penny. Obviously, this was far from a critical listening test. The speakers weren't even at ear height - they were sitting on the floor. But immediately they sounded super-smooth. I don't know if it was the difference between the titanium tweeter and a compression driver, or the height of the speaker, or lack of Audyssey tuning etc., but they sounded so much more effortless than mine. Those speakers stomped all over my PSB's. Dialog inteligibility was off the charts. We watched at pretty high volume (-10dB) and we were sitting pretty close to the speakers. There was no ear fatigue at all - they just sounded so much more laid back than mine. We quickly listened to some music as well...also incredible. They reproduce spoken words like no speaker I have ever heard. Ok that's enough with the compliments for now. You get the point: 3 Procella P610's on my Christmas list for sure...stay tuned!"

BTW: we call this the 'Procella Effect'. AirBenji worded it very nicely.


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post #83 of 238 Old 12-20-2011, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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When can we expect some info on the DA-1400....prices, specifications? Thanks.


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post #84 of 238 Old 12-21-2011, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

When can we expect some info on the DA-1400....prices, specifications? Thanks.

We are actively working on the DA-1400 development and very impressive progress is being made! We are still not ready to give specific availability dates. We are aiming at a very high quality level and this takes engineering time to achieve. As soon as we have details we will let you know via our newsletter.


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post #85 of 238 Old 12-21-2011, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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We are actively working on the DA-1400 development and very impressive progress is being made! We are still not ready to give specific availability dates. We are aiming at a very high quality level and this takes engineering time to achieve. As soon as we have details we will let you know via our newsletter.

Great. Thank you.


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post #86 of 238 Old 12-22-2011, 05:21 PM
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Here is some of our thinking about full-range speakers, starting with a bit of background on the 80Hz subwoofer crossover point. 80 Hz was selected as a standard by THX because they identified it as the most practical frequency for home and small studio playback components that would be designed and manufactured by multiple manufacturers. Crossed over below 80 Hz, most subwoofers become essentially non-directional, which increases flexibility in placing the subwoofer(s). Main speakers and surrounds crossed over above 80 Hz can be relatively compact in size, and are less expensive than speakers using additional, larger drivers. Using this standard, loudspeaker designers could take a variety of design approaches and offer products over a wide range of prices. Further, using a single standard crossover frequency meant that THX processors and receivers could be required to have specific high-pass and low-pass filters that would produce the desired acoustical result.

But there are also compromises with an 80Hz crossover frequency, especially in real rooms with real speakers. While we make speakers designed for an 80Hz crossover, we are also strong advocates for the superiority of full-range main speakers, and this is why we make the P815 and the P610 speakers.

First, consider the fact that cinema soundtracks are mixed with full-range speakers for the left, center and right channels (plus a subwoofer). Full-range in cinema is defined as a speaker that has a -3dB point around 40 to 45Hz. This approach is also ideal for home systems, because reproduction of bass below 100 - 150Hz becomes very dependent on room placement. Note that things change at the very lowest frequencies (below 40 Hz), which is why the lowest frequencies should be handled by one or more subwoofers in the proper location(s).

So, if you want a home system that matches the speakers in the dubbing stage where the film was mixed, you need to have full-range LCRs and subwoofer(s).

Full-range speakers have numerous additional advantages that produce better sound quality than satellite-type speakers. Instead of producing bass in the 40-80Hz octave from just one subwoofer location, using full-range LCRs means that octave is now being produced by four drivers, in four different room locations. Much as using multiple subwoofers improves the low-frequency soundfield, this produces more consistent low frequency response and impact from seat to seat. Distortion is also significantly reduced, as the midrange driver operates over a much narrower range of frequencies and is freed from producing low frequencies. This also increases the dynamic capability and maximum playback level of the system, which means it can be used in larger rooms.

Another benefit of using the P610 with P6 surrounds? Everything above 80 Hz is being reproduced by the identical components, maintaining 'Identical Voices' around the room for a truly coherent sound field.
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post #87 of 238 Old 12-26-2011, 09:54 AM
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This whole business of full range vs. not has many factors which play into the choice. Clearly, the designers of Procella speakers are exceptionally well versed in movie sound track presentation and speaker design … the product speaks for itself.
Large room (and auditoria) and small room acoustics are radically different with respect to the problems, issues, and solutions each present and require. Mode 0 and modal density in large rooms is significantly different than in small rooms. How do you get a 100’ wide sound stage in a 15’ wide room? In a small room, how do you keep the delta in SPL in multiple rows of seats similar? In auditoria, how do you keep FR in the middle of the room equivalent to FR in the fourth row? Getting smooth, or at least consistent bass response in all the seating locations is a significant challenge and sucking up low frequencies isn’t necessarily the better choice.
So, let’s look at just a tiny portion of some of the issues. One of these are notches (very narrow band frequency cancellations). For the sake of this ramble, let’s assume a traditional 80Hz crossover between subs and mains. The notch frequency(ies) will be that frequency whose ¼ wave length is equal to the distance from the face of the speaker to the wall behind the speaker. For example, if your center channel speaker is 1’ from the back wall, you can expect a notch in the frequency response at 281Hz. What’s one way to get rid of the notch? If your crossover is set to 80Hz, move that center channel speaker more than 3.5’ away from that wall. The crossover frequency has a ¼ wavelength of 3.5’. Moving the speaker more than 3.5’ from that front wall lowers the notch frequency below 80Hz. With the notch frequency below the frequency being produced by the speaker … no notch. It’s not that simple, of course. The crossover is not a brick wall! You’d want the notch frequency(ies) low enough to not create an audible problem.
What happens when you push your sub(s) closer than 3.5’ from that front wall? The notch frequency is then higher than the highest frequency being produced by the subwoofer (or LF driver). It would be really nice if it were all that simple … music and speech is dynamic (test tones are not), we have a wall behind a speaker, walls to the sides of the speakers, a floor below and a ceiling above. Then we inject into the whole mess, the baffle wall (which, like any approach, is a solution to one set of issues while creating another).
If we push that sub against a wall, we’ve eliminated potential notch problems and provided boundary gain to help an under performing sub; but, we’ve also exacerbated modal response problems. We’ve placed the sub into a position which will increase the energy feeding modal frequencies. So now, we enter into the world of multiple subs (referring to the separate work of Todd Welti and Gerry Lemay). As subs are added, two things happen: (1) the modal ‘production’ of each sub can be utilized to provide constructive and destructive interference of the modes in the room (Welti’s work clearly states that in the four sub scenario, good bass response does not result in the listening positions rather that “consistent” bass response is created in the listening positions); and, (2) from Lemay’s work we discover that multiple subs in a room perform almost exactly as would a single sub placed at the acoustic midpoint between subs. (What you’re really attempting to do with placement is to organize the acoustic center of your low frequency drivers to be located in a “moderate” modal area.)
This leads (in small rooms) to the scenario where the ideal placement for the L/C/R speakers for the best sound stage, clarity, SPL delta between seats/rows, etc. is most likely exactly the wrong location to place low frequency drivers for the purpose of best low frequency response in the seating area (remember, we really don’t give a hoot about sound quality where people don’t sit). An advantage of the “sub sat” arrangement is to have the positional flexibility to meet the conflicting positional requirements of high/mid frequency drivers and the low frequency drivers.
Now here is the back side of all of this. Regardless of where your room/speaker dictates speaker placement, neither your subs nor your mains can be under performing anywhere within the cross over frequency range. That will muck up everything really, really quickly. The last thing you want is a massive, over performing sub and weak LCR's or vice versa. In the absence of skill and very good DSP processing, the impact in the cross over region is going to be very unpleasant and very much outside what was intended.*

In the end, what has to be achieved is to make your small room exhibit exactly the same acoustic performance of the much larger SMPTE or Academy reference rooms. That is a very tall order and, in the design and calibration of any space, all options need to be left on the table. As well, among the considerations is exactly who is going to perform the audio calibration (including treatment planning) and what tools, or devices, you’ll have available within your electronic configuration to perform the calibration. Someone with the knowledge, experience and proper tools can tackle problems and issues which could very easily frustrate, or be missed by, the most book learned DIYer on the planet.

Where Chuck and I differ is my statement would be "if you want a home system that matches the sound in the dubbing stage where the film was mixed, you have to duplicate that acoustic environment". When you go from a large room to a small room, the challenges are great (and clearly, your speaker kit has to be up to the task).

…and, yes, this is all very much an oversimplification and no, I’m not going to get down in the weeds here.

*Many consumer subs are at the optimal performance in the 35 to 40Hz area. To resolve this problem, you could add something like the P18 to your existing kit, and cross the P18 over with your existing sub at, say 40Hz. Getting a good set of subs/mains in the first place is certainly a better choice. Just because you have a pick'em up truck and an outhouse, doesn't mean you have a camper.

Dennis Erskine CFI, CFII, MEI
Architectural Acoustics
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Certified Home Theater Designer
CEDIA Board of Directors

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post #88 of 238 Old 01-03-2012, 01:06 PM
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I seem to have a difference of opinion here between designer/sound treatment company and Procella. Procella owners--baffle wall or not? And how did you decide?

Matt
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post #89 of 238 Old 01-03-2012, 06:18 PM
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Matt,

Baffle wall for me ... as recommended by Dennis (and Procella).

Cheers,

Peter M


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post #90 of 238 Old 01-04-2012, 08:06 AM
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Well that is interesting because Dennis did not design one for me, and QuestAI (who is doing the acoustic treatments) doesn't typically use them. Maybe you have a different acoustic treatment company, or are doing something different there. I don't recall if you mentioned that in your thread.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.

Matt
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