AVP Upgrade Info - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 59 Old 04-10-2002, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I recieved this E-mail from Madrigal
There are a number of options these are U.S prices

AVP TO AVP2 Dealer upgrade $2,500
AVP TO AVP2 Factory upgrade $2,800
Plus six channel analog input option for the AVP or AVP2 add $1000.00 to the above for dealer upgrade

Plus six channel analog input option for the AVP or AVP2 add $1300.00
to the above for factory upgrade

New faceplate with AVP2 logo add $300.00 factory only

The performance of the upgraded unit will be identical to a new AVP2

These will include a new manual

Well I will have to find out the price of a new one as this is more than I had been hearing OUCH!!!
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post #2 of 59 Old 04-10-2002, 07:46 PM
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This is quite a bit more than what we have been talking about. An upgrade at the factory, for AVP2+6 with new face plate costs $4400! This is too much.

Did they say when this is going to be available?

Mike
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post #3 of 59 Old 04-10-2002, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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No that is the reply to my questions I will have to E-Mail back and see
what a new one goes for
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post #4 of 59 Old 04-10-2002, 08:12 PM
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What the hell them boys at Madrigal are smoking? They better pass it around.

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post #5 of 59 Old 04-10-2002, 08:16 PM
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Par for the course!


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There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #6 of 59 Old 04-10-2002, 09:06 PM
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I took a quick look around the Madrigal site which has been updated with the AVP2 info. However, prior to the recent site update Madrigal had the following posted regarding the AVP upgrade (I could not find this statement now):
Quote:
Summary: Madrigal has a tradition of making upgradeable products. Not only do we make it possible to update products-we actually do offer updates whenever the expense is cost effective and practical given the capabilities or limitations of the previous model's platform. We know that our customers want to make long-term investments in products that can be updated. And, we know that updates must be cost effective and practical if they are to be offered.

We expect this significant update for the AVP to be available in the first quarter of 2002. Should you own an AVP, or are considering buying one, you have our assurance that your unit will be 100% updateable-and at a cost that is in balance with the improved performance, additional features it provides, and the price difference between the current AVP and the updated version. For owners who buy an AVP within six months of the update, the cost to convert their processor (to the newer, more expensive model) will be prorated, based on the unit's manufacturing date.
Emphasis (bold/red) mine.

From this we can gather that the new AVP2 will cost $5500 (original AVP S-Video price) + $2500 (dealer upgrade price) = $8K and the AVP2+6 figures to cost $9K. I highly doubt these will be the prices of the new AVP2 and AVP2+6. It sounds like Madrigal has backtracked on their promise to make the upgrade available for the difference in price between the AVP and AVP2....

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post #7 of 59 Old 04-10-2002, 09:53 PM
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I'm NOT surprised!!!!

Jose.

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post #8 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 03:35 AM
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So this is factual ?
If so ..humm

Mention Dealer upgrade @ $2500 and FActory upgrade @$2800 ..what does this mean ..?
the cost for the upgrade to a dealer is $2500 ?? ...Im confused ?

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Thanks.....Matt Nalbandian


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post #9 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 06:50 AM
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This is really expensive for just an upgrade, if these prices are confirmed. Really pisses me off!!! Sorry
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post #10 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 12:03 PM
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i confirmed the prices with Madrigal today; they not only charge the extra $300 to have the mod done at the factory (compared to at the dealer), but will take 4 weeks to do it. If you also want the new faceplate, that is an addional $300 and it has to be done at the factory, so you get hit with that $300 and the wait as well.
By comparison, the AVP II new is $6,500, so if your AVP is worth $2,500 used, the $2,500 upgrade is a $1,500 savings over new. When I very specifically mentioned the upgrade was announced on their website as: "Should you own an AVP, or are considering buying one, you have our assurance that your unit will be 100% updateable-and at a cost that is in balance with the improved performance, additional features it provides, and the price difference between the current AVP and the updated version," I was told that was only a projection; that in fact upgrades of some of their other products do not reflect that policy. They are obviously leaning heavily on the "in balance" phrase.
The AVPII new have shipped; the upgrade kits are ready to ship to dealers on a special order basis in 3 weeks.
The AVPII with 6 channel audio can be added later for an additional $1,000, but that portion won't be ready until July.

john
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post #11 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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At $6500.00 for a new one I would be very upset if I had recently purchased one I am doubtful that I wolud spend this much for an upgrade
I would be better off getting a new one. I think the AVP is going to be almost impossible to sell with this information.
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post #12 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 04:33 PM
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i didn't confirm this, but madrigal did mention some sort of pro-rated upgrade discount for AVP uits purchased less than 6 months ago

john
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post #13 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 05:12 PM
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I began my sojourn into high-end separates four years ago, with the Proceed PAV/PDSD--the alleged "big brother" to the AVP. Within a few months, the AVP was released, and immediately became the more popular product, primarily because it didn't have the fundamental design flaw of the PAV/PDSD--that is, a state of the art digital processor chained to the technology of six or seven years past.

I fell for the promise of upgradeability. In three years, I only saw one, the software download permitting DTS to pass from DVDs.

I then switched to Krell, and have been going through the throes of waiting for the HTS2 upgrade, which, now that it's arrived . . .

I bought a Lexicon MC-12B. Within a few weeks of my purchase, the first upgrade was available (though the earliest adopters waited months--veritable split seconds in the world of audio upgrades). And what an upgrade it is . . . downloaded from my pc, new sound modes, new features to the user interface, new options from the menu for each input, improved user interface on an already good one. All for a product which has always been recognized as bleeding edge in digital processing and surround modes. The Lex already has the 6 channel analog input, it already has versatile bass management, it already has 7 channel capability (not just 7.1 either--with stero subs, it's really 7.2).

This comes from a company which has a track record of upgrades to its customers that is universally raved about. My understanding is that Madrigal almost landed the proprietary Logic 7 mode for its Levinson 40 model, but that has apparently fallen through. Too bad for Levinson owners.

Wonder what my $10,000 PAV/PDSD is going for now on Audiogon? Good luck with your AVPs.

Nick :cool:
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post #14 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Summary: Madrigal has a tradition of making upgradeable products. Not only do we make it possible to update products-we actually do offer updates whenever the expense is cost effective and practical given the capabilities or limitations of the previous model's platform. We know that our customers want to make long-term investments in products that can be updated. And, we know that updates must be cost effective and practical if they are to be offered.
P.S. - Our exception to the above. A couple of years ago we suckered some customers to spend $10K on our "future-proof" PAV/PDSD. Wow, did they ever fall for our nonsense. The best part, we totally ignore them now, and their processors are going for $2500 on Audiogon! We laught at this scenario every morning at coffee break. We tortured PMDT owners for a while with all the software glitches, but we figured they had enough, so we finally released a stable PMDT. The fun just doesn't stop. We can now charge $300 for a faceplate. We are contacting PAV/PDSD owners to send in their pieces to be melted down for scrap. In return, we will provide them with a brand new AVP2 faceplate! Our fine tradition at Madrigal continues..........


Madrigal sucks!!!!!!!!!!
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post #15 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 06:18 PM
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I agree with Nick.
I jumped ship a couple of weeks ago and traded my AVP in towards the MC-12B. I got a very decent deal. Boy I am glad I did that now....I still have the PMDT tho....(and it needs servicing again)....

Geof
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post #16 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
We tortured PMDT owners for a while with all the software glitches, but we figured they had enough, so we finally released a stable PMDT.
When did that happen? You guys wouldn't believe my stories.

Jose.

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post #17 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 06:54 PM
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Jose- for an additional $500, we can send you a power button for your PMDT that works. Let us know if you are interested as these are selling fast. As a side note, our engineering staff did extensive research when developing the new No.40, and discovered the duct tape you are using will only last approximately 60 days.:D
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post #18 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 07:18 PM
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Specifically, here's what we're reacting to:

Quote:
The PAV/PDSD costs nearly twice as much as the AVP. Is this combination twice as good? In a word, no. The much more costly combination of the PAV and PDSD offers a more future-proof, modular, card-cage architecture along with more inputs (including six-channel analog pass-through) and greater versatility. The PAV/PDSD has balanced outputs for all channels while the AVP has balanced outputs for just the front three channels, and there are some sonic advantages to the dual-chassis configuration. Performance with surround sound material provides a more fully integrated soundfield with a slightly more holosonic presentation from the PAV/PDSD combination, but the AVP is certainly no slouch in this area.

The law of diminishing returns is operative here. You seldom get a linear return in higher performance for higher cost, but if you can afford nearly $10,000 for a digital controller, this probably doesn’t concern you much. The Proceed PAV/PDSD is a little better than the Proceed AVP and they are both exceptional products. Highly recommended.

- Richard Hardesty


Now I'm not rapping Hardesty, because all he was doing was delivering the party line prepared by Madrigal. But think of what fools we felt like, as PAV/PDSD owners, who said despite the laws of diminishing returns, we want the "best" product, even if it's just a little better than something half the price. That extra $5,000, so I rationalized, was in the staying power of the piece (by the way, I have no idea what he's talking about with respect to 6 channel analog pass-through, though someone recently posted that they'd accidentally figured a way for the PAV to do this, even though Madrigal vehemently denied that ability).

Thank goodness it only stayed with me until 2001, when I saw the writing on the wall. I was tickled to get $4000 back on a mint unit with over two years of warranty remaining (wonder what Madrigal does when someone actually needs one of these fixed? Maybe they say they'll give them $500 off on the new AVPII?).

Oh, well. I should have realized that something that offered high end s-video switching, at a time when component video had just emerged, was a bit suspect. But I was too new to the high end to trust my instincts that told me something was wrong with the product. Nevermore.

Maybe the most unfortunate part about it is that they've dropped the ball in the silliest places. The PDSD sounded great, as good as any processor I'd heard, but I'm referring now to the overall sound quality, not surround modes. It lacked anything but basic bass management, and never once offered any of the promised "upgradeable" additions. In short, it was a complete default on the promises made by Madrigal.

Don't know why anyone would put their confidence in this company now. They have to earn it.

Nick :cool:
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post #19 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 07:32 PM
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More info on AVP2: MSRP for AVP2 is $6495 and AVP2+6 is $6895.

Madrigal charges a lot more money to upgrade AVP2 to AVP2+6 than the MSRP differential.

Mike

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post #20 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 07:53 PM
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1k vs .4k

john
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post #21 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 08:49 PM
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This explains why there is a continous flow of AVP's for sale at Audiogon.

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post #22 of 59 Old 04-11-2002, 10:10 PM
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Gladiator,

Krazy Glue DOES work. Bonds in seconds...Only 60 days for the duct tape, damn...I guess I'd have to send that in also. Better not forget to get an RA#. :D

Jose.

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post #23 of 59 Old 04-12-2002, 06:23 PM
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I guess I fall into that camp that is glad that I sold my AVP several months ago while I could still get good money for it. I got $2550 for it back in November. I then lived with a borrowed Lexicon DC-1 for a few months and then got a GREAT deal on a Lexicon MC-12B which I've been thrilled with.

I think the upgrade price that Proceed has announced is out of line with their stated policy and just down right too much money, even accounting for the fact that most of the internal circuitry will be replaced when the upgrade is performed. Charging extra to have it done at the factory and then also making the new faceplate a factory only upgrade really seems unreasonable to me.

The one positive note in all of this is that I'm sure Proceed will release another processor sometime in the next year or so that will take over the place of the PAV/PDSD, probably somewhere in the $10-12k range and I'm sure Proceed will offer some sort of upgrade for PAV/PDSD owners. The negative here is that after seeing the cost to upgrade an AVP to an AVPII, the cost to upgrade the PAV/PDSD will probably be even worse.

To all of you who have AVP's, I really sympathize with your situation - I would have been there too if I hadn't been able to negotiate a great deal on a MC-12B.
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post #24 of 59 Old 04-12-2002, 06:53 PM
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This is such B.S. The better in all ways Lex can be had on A'gon, in many cases new, or virtually new, for way less than the cost of the upgraded AVP. And what's up with this extra $600 to get the factory to install the upgrades? My only authorized Proceed dealer is Tweeters, and those knuckleheads are not competent to install even the latest software upgrades (they CAN'T). So what now, eat that $600 and wait forever for them to turn it around? They've never made a deadline in the history of their company, it'll take 6 weeks at a minimum. And you might as well get the newly minted? face-plate if you ever want to sell the thing.

Forget it. I bought mine for $2500. Upgrades will cost me $4000+, plus-the down-time, and I still won't have what I want. I knew there was a problem when I saw an AVP on A'gon yesterday for $2k, shipping included, plus a $200 digital cable, a phast cable, and plus a $130 remote of some kind.

Ba*tards, I couldn't be more pissed.
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post #25 of 59 Old 04-12-2002, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by j_thunders
I knew there was a problem when I saw an AVP on A'gon yesterday for $2k, shipping included, plus a $200 digital cable, a phast cable, and plus a $130 remote of some kind.
I saw the add too. I feel really bad for you guys. I almost bought the AVP. I am glad I passed on the opportunity.

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post #26 of 59 Old 04-12-2002, 08:41 PM
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I bought my AVP on 20 April 2001. In less than a year, its had two faulty LED displays and the display is still broken, but the AVP continues to work. Madrigal has promised me 'discounts' on the AVP upgrade, but with no details yet.

At the time of the purchase, I was told by one reputable dealer to just buy the Proceed amps (which I also bought), as they are very good, but to skip the AVP and look at the B&K Ref.30 + outboard DAC or Integra Research processors. He warned me about Madrigal's support on the PAV/PDSD was not a good indicator of things to come. I ignored him. Now I pay two ways, more cash plus down time.

I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED WITH MADRIGAL AS OF THIS TIME AND I WOULD BE RELUCTANT TO RECOMMEND THEM TO ANYONE. If a person has this sort of money, look at other products like Meridian, Lexicon & TAG.
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post #27 of 59 Old 04-12-2002, 08:53 PM
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AVP owners, we feel your pain, although ours is worse. Check out this thread from PAV/PDSD owners. It was started in September 2001, and there has yet to be any official word from Madrigal, other then them removing the PAV/PDSD from the Proceed website and placing it in the "discontinued" products list. I have since sold all of my other Madrigal products and will never support that company again, there is just too much good competition out there. I switched to Pass Labs, and there products and customer service is beyond incredible. If I wouldn't lose so much money, I would buy an MC12B tomorrow to replace my PAV/PDSD.
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post #28 of 59 Old 04-12-2002, 09:08 PM
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I downloaded the new AVPII manual from Madrigal's website. The faceplate of the AVPII is identical to the AVP with the exception of the logos. There are NO NEW functional changes on the front plate. On the back plate there is a "door" for future hardware applications. By paying $300 for the faceplate upgrade, you don't get much of anything at all.

Some other drawbacks:

1. No new balanced outputs.
2. No additional optical digital inputs.
3. Volume display increments in 0.5dB and NOT in 0.1dB.
4. Same remote.
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post #29 of 59 Old 04-13-2002, 05:34 AM
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i'm actually looking forward to the upgrade! and i'll get the factory to do it, so i'm looking at 2,800, unless i add the faceplate.
consider these reasons:
i've had the avp for 3 years (it has never had a problem) so 2,800 plus the resale value of the current AVP means my AVPII choice should be compared to a 4800 alternative. What might that be? If I had just purhased the avp, i might think differently about the cost factor.

Not to defend Madrigal, but when you read carefully their first statement about upgrade and difference in retail pricing they only indicated they would try. Sure it is misleading especially coupled with all the bs about firmware upgrades. Madrigal actually told me thay HAD released many upgrades for the AVP and I recall about 3 or 4.

Madrigal's self promotion is odious, to be sure, but how is it unlike most of the other manufacturers?

most of the upgrade hardware seems like a huge improvement (dacs), but i would like to have seen all balanced audio outs and more optical audio inputs. I happen to love that remote; if only it had the ability to contol a few functions on the PMDT...

my guess about firmware updates is that they really were just bug fixes, (until they added dts) and a hardware upgrade was required to really change anything substantial. What might they have offerred as a firmware update on the avp (not avpII) platform?

as far as considerintg an alternate manufacturer. i looked a the Lexicon M-12B, but while it seems to be a great HT unit, it might not perform as well for 2 ch audio as the avp and it is $8k+, street. the TAG-192 ( my guess is this is about a $6k+ unit) comes to mind, but it isn't out yet (talk about delays between product announcement and release) and the piggy back onto the TAG-32 chassis leaves me cold. Also, having looked at a 32, i can't get into that glossy painted faceplate! the Casablanca mavbe, but that is even more $. Integra: but that is a fancy Onkyo...wait for the BAT hybrid? no way on the Levinson 40; Krell has had its share of problems...

the PAV owners have my sympathy; if i were in their shoes and they have exact literal evidence that Madrigal did not follow through with their promises i would band together and file a class action suit. you could undoubtably get 10 owners together with the goal to get a substantial credit on a new unit, at least?

john
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post #30 of 59 Old 04-13-2002, 07:28 AM
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Yup, I believe your right, its actionable in my state under the DTPA.
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