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post #361 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 05:20 AM
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Grandarf:

I'm not sure what your need is here. I know most of the guys you are debating with here, and I know all of them have actually tried many pieces of gear to land on what they have. If you want to believe a widely known poor sound quality DAC from a VERY cheaply built (for a purpose), noisy piece of proaudio gear sounds exactly the same as other DACs, great. Just keep your DEQ and be happy. Don't worry about what the rest of us do, think, or believe. No one in this thread said anything other than try things for yourself. That's the best advise ANYONE could give you. Debate what you want, just know that you are wasting your time.
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post #362 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 05:29 AM
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How would you characterize music when played through the PS Audio DAC III, Nuance? Did you buy it new or on the used market seeing as it was introduced I think in 1996? Later, I'll offer up some comments on MatrixHiFi. Not looking for a debate, just some insight.

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post #363 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 05:38 AM
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How would you characterize music when played through the PS Audio DAC III, Nuance? Did you buy it new or on the used market seeing as it was introduced I think in 1996? Later, I'll offer up some comments on MatrixHiFi. Not looking for a debate, just some insight.

Using my PS Audio was just an example, as for all I know it could be terrible when compared to the DEQ (I never made that comparison). However, it sure does sound better than the analog outputs of the Squeezebox (the latter could be flawed in some manner).

I purchased the PS Audio used from TJHUB, whom wanted a tube DAC. He purchased the DAC new.

I am a huge proponent of properly performed DBT's, but the link Grandarf provided didn't show me one; it was a flawed test. Anyway, maybe we should start a new thread? This isn't relevant to the current one. The Audio Theory section of the forum would be a nice place for that, and maybe we could even get Sean Olive to participate (tonemeister).

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post #364 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 05:46 AM
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LOL! I'm not looking for you to make a comparison to the DEQ, just talk about the PSA unit contrasted to the Squeezebox. Don't worry, I'm not going to rip one on you!

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post #365 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

LOL! I'm not looking for you to make a comparison to the DEQ, just talk about the PSA unit contrasted to the Squeezebox. Don't worry, I'm not going to rip one on you!

Feel free to rip me one, as a good ripping is good for bringing one down to earth every once in a while. I don't feel like I am floating away from the ground, but you never know.

Well, let's use the DAC we used at the latest GTG, the Music Hall Terry owns, which always makes this conversation applicable to this thread (you like how I spun that? LOL).

We listened in solid state mode (the DAC), directly comparing to the analog outputs of the Squeezebox Touch. For reasons I cannot explain (I can only assume they measure differently), our test samples of music were very flat and dull through the analog outputs of the SB. The shimmer was lacking, there was not enough sibilance in the cymbals, the timbre of instruments was completely wrong, etc. The other three listening participants (myself excluded) heard the same things I did.

What else would you like to know, Chu Gai?

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post #366 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 05:59 AM
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Would you say the PSA was richer sounding? Instruments perhaps a bit more full bodied? Other than that been to any Brewer's games?

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post #367 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 06:04 AM
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Would you say the PSA was richer sounding? Instruments perhaps a bit more full bodied? Other than that been to any Brewer's games?

Full bodied...I dunno. More like more realistic and natural. Without the DAC the music sounded 1-dimensional; it was just plain uninvolving and bad. A triangle, for example, wouldn't decay normally, but instead just promptly stop. When listening with the DAC, it decayed in a more realistic manner, at least to my ears. If I had to summarize with one description I would have to use the word "timbre." Instruments sounded artificial.

No Brewer games yet; life is so busy with three young kids. I hope to go soon, though, even thought we're playing poorly. DOH - I am off topic again. You got me!

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post #368 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 06:10 AM
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Baseball is never off topic!
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The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt, and erased again. But baseball has marked the time. This field, this game, is part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again.

I heard you had a third. What did you call the baby, "OOPS!"?
Give me some time and I'll offer up a non-binding introspective on your purchase and subjective impressions.

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post #369 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 06:14 AM
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Baseball is never off topic!

Haha, fair enough.


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I heard you had a third. What did you call the baby, "OOPS!"?
Give me some time and I'll offer up a non-binding introspective on your purchase and subjective impressions.

LOL - no, he was planned, and his name is Elijah.

I'd be more interested in your opinion on the blind test link provided by Grandarf, but a " non-binding introspective on my purchase and subjective impressions" sounds pretty cool too. I urged Grandarf to start a new thread on his DBT topic in the Audio Theory section of the forum.

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post #370 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Would you say the PSA was richer sounding? Instruments perhaps a bit more full bodied? Other than that been to any Brewer's games?

If I can be allowed to interject here...

Nuance purchased the PSA DAC from me, so it was used (slightly). We had gotten together a few times and he (and I) both really liked the sound the DAC provided. When I moved on to other gear, I loaned the PSA to him to evaluate with his own setup. Needless to say, he purchased the DAC from me.

I think I know where you are going with the PSA DAC, but I don't hear it. Speaking for both Nuance and myself, we have never entered into a discussion of tone or warmth. For us, as Nuance has already touch on, we hear what to us is accurate timbre and tonality, clarity, separation, and sound stage presentation.

To me, the clarity that well-built, quality components like DACs, preamps, and amps provide allows for many things. If the clarity is there, things like imaging, separation, and detail really come through. The presentation is much more realistic sounding and the timbre or tone come through as more accurate. This is what a good sounding DAC has brought to my setups. The PSA is one of those DACs that provides a great level of clarity.

To my ears, a poor quality DAC tends to sound congested, as in limited sound stage, dynamics, separation and clarity. Along with this usually comes odd timbre. Things like cymbals will lack proper decay and shimmer. Flutes tend to sound like wood instruments and lack the metallic body sound they should have. Piano sounds like a fake computer generated tone rather than the distinct sound of hammer striking a metal string. Often the sound the body of the piano is missing or blended away into noise. I could go on and on, but I hope you get the idea. These are the things that bring magic to music listening.

I've been in the same room where people don't seem to hear what I hear UNTIL it is pointed out. I just don't think people listen the same. Nuance and I are detail freaks. When listening to music, the tonality of every instrument has to sound real and correct. We love the micro detail a great system can provide. If the music sounds right, we get a strong connection to it. If it sounds "wrong", we'd rather not listen. It's the reason we also both like the speaker we have. They deliver the detail and accuracy we crave while not sounding bright or fatiguing; not an easy thing to achieve.
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post #371 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by TJHUB View Post

If I can be allowed to interject here...

But of course!

Quote:


Nuance purchased the PSA DAC from me, so it was used (slightly). We had gotten together a few times and he (and I) both really liked the sound the DAC provided. When I moved on to other gear, I loaned the PSA to him to evaluate with his own setup. Needless to say, he purchased the DAC from me.

And you got his tube DAC, whatever it was?

Quote:


I think I know where you are going with the PSA DAC, but I don't hear it. Speaking for both Nuance and myself, we have never entered into a discussion of tone or warmth. For us, as Nuance has already touch on, we hear what to us is accurate timbre and tonality, clarity, separation, and sound stage presentation.

Sometimes, we all search for words to explain the same thing.

Quote:


To me, the clarity that well-built, quality components like DACs, preamps, and amps provide allows for many things. If the clarity is there, things like imaging, separation, and detail really come through. The presentation is much more realistic sounding and the timbre or tone come through as more accurate. This is what a good sounding DAC has brought to my setups. The PSA is one of those DACs that provides a great level of clarity.

To my ears, a poor quality DAC tends to sound congested, as in limited sound stage, dynamics, separation and clarity. Along with this usually comes odd timbre. Things like cymbals will lack proper decay and shimmer. Flutes tend to sound like wood instruments and lack the metallic body sound they should have. Piano sounds like a fake computer generated tone rather than the distinct sound of hammer striking a metal string. Often the sound the body of the piano is missing or blended away into noise. I could go on and on, but I hope you get the idea. These are the things that bring magic to music listening.

A good recording helps too!

Quote:


I've been in the same room where people don't seem to hear what I hear UNTIL it is pointed out. I just don't think people listen the same. Nuance and I are detail freaks. When listening to music, the tonality of every instrument has to sound real and correct. We love the micro detail a great system can provide. If the music sounds right, we get a strong connection to it. If it sounds "wrong", we'd rather not listen. It's the reason we also both like the speaker we have. They deliver the detail and accuracy we crave while not sounding bright or fatiguing; not an easy thing to achieve.

You could be right. OTOH, what you may be doing without realizing is practicing selective auditory focusing. Just for a lark, try the same pointing out using a DAC that purportedly doesn't have these qualities to people and see what they say.

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post #372 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 07:32 AM
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And you got his tube DAC, whatever it was?

No. I was looking for a different sound and mistakenly blamed the DAC for what turned out to be something else altogether. Nonetheless, I purchased a Music Hall DAC 25.2 and liked the tube output. I've since modded the DAC with Burson discrete opamps, a DEXA clock, and some hexfred diodes on the power supply. I now use the solid state output of the DAC, and I think it is fantastic.

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A good recording helps too!

A good recording, the room, setup, etc. all helps of course. We were talking DACs, so I tried to limit it to that.

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You could be right. OTOH, what you may be doing without realizing is practicing selective auditory focusing. Just for a lark, try the same pointing out using a DAC that purportedly doesn't have these qualities to people and see what they say.

I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but it is what I've experienced. It even happens to me. I find myself practicing selective auditory focusing. It seems unavoidable. For example, I just went through a subwoofer upgrade. For weeks I focused primarily on the bass side of the music I was listening to during this upgrade and tuning.

I don't want to get into the psychology of how people listen and why, I just know something is there. I do this stuff for me only. I admit I do enjoy sharing this hobby with good friends like Nuance, Warpdrv, and merrymaid, but I still do it for me. Our GTG's have exposed me to some great gear, great music, and great company.
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post #373 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 07:40 AM
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But of course!

And you got his tube DAC, whatever it was?

No. I had no DAC at the time, because in all honesty, I didn't believe much in their abilities. Obviously my position has now changed based on my personal experiences. I would never use those experiences as fact, however, and very well admit I could be totally wrong. This hobby is way too subjective to say otherwise. Whether there is actually an improvement or it can be chalked up to cognitive dissonance, I am happy so the DAC stays in my system.

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You could be right. OTOH, what you may be doing without realizing is practicing selective auditory focusing. Just for a lark, try the same pointing out using a DAC that purportedly doesn't have these qualities to people and see what they say.

I don't know if it's pertinent, but while comparing Terry didn't tell the participants what to listen for at the GTG; he just played the same tracks with and without the DAC and let us formulate our own opinions. He did, however, state there was a difference, but didn't go into detail on what and why. At the conclusion of the listening session we all concluded that we heard the same thing. I had, of course, already been through this comparison, but it was fun to perform it again and see how the other listeners responded. This was by no means as credible as a level matched DBT, but it was fun and convincing enough to live up to our expectations.

P.S. Terry posted while I wrote this, so this may be repetitive...sorry. I also second what he said about doing this "for me." In the end, we should be choosing products that we like, not that someone else likes. It's our system after all. It's just a good example of why someone should listen a product of interest before they make a purchase, as my treasure could be your garbage.

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post #374 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 09:45 AM
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Grandarf:

I'm not sure what your need is here.

Need? Just having a discussion... What's your need here?

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I know most of the guys you are debating with here, and I know all of them have actually tried many pieces of gear to land on what they have. If you want to believe a widely known poor sound quality DAC from a VERY cheaply built (for a purpose), noisy piece of proaudio gear sounds exactly the same as other DACs, great. Just keep your DEQ and be happy.

Does the Dac1 also sound like: "poor sound quality DAC from a VERY cheaply built (for a purpose), noisy piece of proaudio gear"? If it doesn't, why does it measure the same? And why were 15 people who claimed to be able to also hear differences were unable to do so under blind conditions?

What's your basis for making the above statement? Have you also done a DBT? Or, more likely, just an error prone audition? You believe your opinion, or Nuance's, or anybody else who only did error prone tests trumps a good ol'DBT & hard measurements?

I asked Nuance in pm what was flawed with the test and how having the choice of 3 headphones, and option of choosing which to use for the test, made the test flawed... no answer so far...

Quote:


Don't worry about what the rest of us do, think, or believe. No one in this thread said anything other than try things for yourself. That's the best advise ANYONE could give you. Debate what you want, just know that you are wasting your time.

I don't worry, I'm stating my position and trying to explain why going for a preamp over a DEQ in my case would be futile... Seems like Nuance for example disagreed, he put forth a couple statements, which I think I clearly rebuked most I didn't agree with, and that's where we are. I'm not trying to get you all to get a DEQ and sell off your pre amps or anything, but if you want to present your opinion, how about being able to validate it and support it? I think I've well illustrated well why much of what Nuance said was wrong/silly... If anyone disagree with anything I've said, plz, just quote it and say way...

If measurements and DBT indicate that both units sound the same, why should I bother hearing both for myself if I'm not insterested in purchasing the 1000$ Dac1?

Take your post, you claim that the DEQ is "widely known poor sound quality DAC" and "noisy". Is the Dac1 too? Why weren't 15 people able to hear differences under blind conditions? And as I asked earlier, what are you basing yourself on to make the above statement? And how do you reconcile that with actual measurements of both DAC1 and DEQ & failed DBT?

Chu, looking forward to reading yoru comments
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post #375 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 10:28 AM
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I asked Nuance in pm what was flawed with the test and how having the choice of 3 headphones, and option of choosing which to use for the test, made the test flawed... no answer so far...

Check again. I have a life dude; I don't sit around waiting and praying that you'll respond. Get over yourself.


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I think I've well illustrated well why much of what Nuance said was wrong/silly... .

There you go again with incorrect information. You have not proven anything I've said wrong/silly. Well, maybe you did in your own mind, but that's not reality. Continuously re-stating your point over and over doesn't make you "right." I've actually debunked your test already, so...

Seriously dude, get over it and move along. No one cares about your flawed test.

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post #376 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 11:20 AM
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Grandarf:

I don't *need* anything, but I whole heartedly disagree with people like you. There are so many reasons, I wouldn't waste my time explaining them all to you. Go ahead and believe what you want. I personally think you're missing the boat. What I would love to do is meet with you, show you some things, and have you attempt a DBT on me. I'd hear the difference.

You seem to want to "debate" everything. Good for you. I won't participate beyond this last post. I'm a little disappointed that Nuance is wasting his valuable time with you. Come on man!!
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Originally Posted by TJHUB View Post

Grandarf:

I don't *need* anything, but I whole heartedly disagree with people like you. There are so many reasons, I wouldn't waste my time explaining them all to you. Go ahead and believe what you want. I personally think you're missing the boat. What I would love to do is meet with you, show you some things, and have you attempt a DBT on me. I'd hear the difference.

You seem to want to "debate" everything. Good for you. I won't participate beyond this last post. I'm a little disappointed that Nuance is wasting his valuable time with you. Come on man!!

No worries bud - I am done responding to his obnoxious drivel.

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post #378 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 12:14 PM
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Which did you like better Nuance, the 96 or 192 upsampling?

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #379 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 01:53 PM
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Which did you like better Nuance, the 96 or 192 upsampling?

Currently I prefer 96.

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post #380 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Out of respect for the OP (me....ha ha!) can we leave the DAC and world hunger debate to another thread please.
I think this thread began as a great resource for others to learn how folks prefer different equipment, rooms, speakers, etc. Now it has lost its way. I hope to keep this thread alive and not shut down for the chance us WI boys hold another GTG sometime in the future. You know us, it will happen!

Thank you for your cooperation.
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post #381 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 03:33 PM
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Out of respect for the OP (me....ha ha!) can we leave the DAC and world hunger debate to another thread please.
I think this thread began as a great resource for others to learn how folks prefer different equipment, rooms, speakers, etc. Now it has lost its way. I hope to keep this thread alive and not shut down for the chance us WI boys hold another GTG sometime in the future. You know us, it will happen!

Thank you for your cooperation.
Brandon
I agree 100%.

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post #382 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 03:41 PM
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NP. I'll pass on any further DAC discussions & promise to eat all my food on the plate to help with world hunger.

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
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post #383 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 04:21 PM
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Oh my!

Interesting viewpoints though.

Just agree to disagree.

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Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
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post #384 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Brandon, I recommend asking the mods to remove the last couple pages of the thread, as it's just the ramblings of a man who refuses to accept reality (Grandarf).

So when shall we plan the next GTG boys? Mid-summer would be cool, no?
Staying on topic, I would love to have another summer GTG if not to just hang out again! Maybe some of the out of towers can join us? I can probably host it at my parents place for simply more room unless someone else prefers to. We could throw around some dates(mid-late July) maybe and see who else might want to
make the trek to WI
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post #385 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 04:48 PM
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Count me in. Got my new Salks and would like to hear other stuff.
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post #386 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Count me in. Got my new Salks and would like to hear other stuff.
Excellent, it would be nice to have some new faces join in!
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post #387 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 04:57 PM
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I got a cs 18.2 on order I could bring. I know its just a sub but you know you want to hear one! I'm up in Appleton. I just have some jamo s606 front towers, nothing like your gear. I don't have a receiver with preouts so hosting for me is kinda out.
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post #388 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 05:01 PM
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Great, two new attendees already! Brandon, let us know which dates in July or August work for you, and then we'll narrow things down.

Chu Gai and cschang, you should make the trip and join us.

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post #389 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Great, two new attendees already! Brandon, let us know which dates in July or August work for you, and then we'll narrow things down.

Chu Gai and cschang, you should make the trip and join us.
^^^^
And Bill M too

The last 2 weekends in July look open thus far, more in august as well. Thoughts? Terry, Patrick?
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post #390 of 1777 Old 05-18-2011, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymaid520

^^^^
And Bill M too

The last 2 weekends in July look open thus far, more in august as well. Thoughts? Terry, Patrick?
Duh, how did I forget Bill? Yes, him too, of course!

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