SE WI Tower speaker GTG - Page 16 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #451 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 04:41 PM
Senior Member
 
Pet Motel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: DeKalb, IL.
Posts: 470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 63
"I am pleased to say that the first few STC’s made their way down our production line today. Just for fun, we decided to listen to a pair of them for 2-channel music in our demo room, and……. that is where I have been for that past 4 ½ hours…

I am not one to hype a product and many of you will take this as a sales pitch, but I am seriously blown away by the performance of these new speakers. The dynamics are just insane and the speaker’s ability to throw sound not only at you but also around you is seriously startling.

Not only are these the absolute perfect match to the Sierra Towers, but their performance as mains is causing me to re-think everything. Although this is EASILY the absolute best center I have ever heard, I must re-consider our original intention to market this speaker as a “center” Their performance as left/right mains is, quite frankly, astonishing and I can see many people using these as fronts.

I assure you, this was completely unexpected but their performance far exceeds the sum of their parts and for those who don’t yet own Sierra Towers or for those who need something smaller or don’t have the floor space, these absolutely must be seriously considered as mains."

The above is a quote by Dave on his web site. I suppose you might say I have yet another suggestion as a possible participant. I have one on order (with the RAAL upgrade) I would be willing to offer up, but obviously that only gets half the job done.

Jay

Heavily addicted SACDBA member, starting the twelve steps tomorrow!
Jay
Pet Motel is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #452 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 05:07 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet Motel View Post

"I am pleased to say that the first few STC’s made their way down our production line today. Just for fun, we decided to listen to a pair of them for 2-channel music in our demo room, and……. that is where I have been for that past 4 ½ hours…

I am not one to hype a product and many of you will take this as a sales pitch, but I am seriously blown away by the performance of these new speakers. The dynamics are just insane and the speaker’s ability to throw sound not only at you but also around you is seriously startling.

Not only are these the absolute perfect match to the Sierra Towers, but their performance as mains is causing me to re-think everything. Although this is EASILY the absolute best center I have ever heard, I must re-consider our original intention to market this speaker as a “center” Their performance as left/right mains is, quite frankly, astonishing and I can see many people using these as fronts.

I assure you, this was completely unexpected but their performance far exceeds the sum of their parts and for those who don’t yet own Sierra Towers or for those who need something smaller or don’t have the floor space, these absolutely must be seriously considered as mains."

The above is a quote by Dave on his web site. I suppose you might say I have yet another suggestion as a possible participant. I have one on order (with the RAAL upgrade) I would be willing to offer up, but obviously that only gets half the job done.

Jay

Thanks for the info Jay, but we're at max capacity with the speakers already. We'll have the Sierra Tower's with the RAAL tweeter there anyway. We will, however, make an exception if Vapor Audio wants to send us something.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #453 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 05:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dennis Murphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,557
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

One thing I just noticed about the Cirrus in the spec sheet:

"Tweeter Upgrade:
Upgrade RAAL 70-20XR tweeter to Amorphous Core - $400 (More micro-detail and dynamics)"

I thought this was standard on the RAALs?

This is the Sierra Tower's (RAAL version) spec sheet:

"Tweeter (featuring custom RAAL 70-20XR)
(1) 20mm wide pure aluminum ribbon tweeter with
custom designed face plate and amorphous core
transformer."

Can anybody comment?


The "amorphous core" is an option on both the 70-10 and 70-20. For company buyers, it costs perhaps $75 - $80 extra per unit (probably less). I've worked with both cores in the 70-20, and to me they measure the same, sound the same. I can't find any clear explanation of what the amorphous core is or does. I've heard that it presents an easier load to tube amps, but there's nothing wrong with the regular RAAL in that regard. Jim Salk uses the amorphous core in his speakers, but doesn't hype any benefits. RAAL makes great stuff, but this particular aspect of their product line is a mystery to me. I wouldn't read any significance into it.
Dennis Murphy is offline  
post #454 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
merrymaid520's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 1,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet Motel View Post

"I am pleased to say that the first few STC's made their way down our production line today. Just for fun, we decided to listen to a pair of them for 2-channel music in our demo room, and. that is where I have been for that past 4 ½ hours

I am not one to hype a product and many of you will take this as a sales pitch, but I am seriously blown away by the performance of these new speakers. The dynamics are just insane and the speaker's ability to throw sound not only at you but also around you is seriously startling.

Not only are these the absolute perfect match to the Sierra Towers, but their performance as mains is causing me to re-think everything. Although this is EASILY the absolute best center I have ever heard, I must re-consider our original intention to market this speaker as a center Their performance as left/right mains is, quite frankly, astonishing and I can see many people using these as fronts.

I assure you, this was completely unexpected but their performance far exceeds the sum of their parts and for those who don't yet own Sierra Towers or for those who need something smaller or don't have the floor space, these absolutely must be seriously considered as mains."

The above is a quote by Dave on his web site. I suppose you might say I have yet another suggestion as a possible participant. I have one on order (with the RAAL upgrade) I would be willing to offer up, but obviously that only gets half the job done.

Jay


Jay,
I will be curious to hear your thoughts on the new STC RAAL you have coming! Please let me know your thoughts once it arrives!
merrymaid520 is offline  
post #455 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 05:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
dlbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 137
dlbeck is offline  
post #456 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 06:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlbeck View Post

Depending on the date, I would like to come.

You're on the list too.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #457 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 06:19 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
cschang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA
Posts: 14,730
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

The "amorphous core" is an option on both the 70-10 and 70-20. For company buyers, it costs perhaps $75 - $80 extra per unit (probably less). I've worked with both cores in the 70-20, and to me they measure the same, sound the same. I can't find any clear explanation of what the amorphous core is or does. I've heard that it presents an easier load to tube amps, but there's nothing wrong with the regular RAAL in that regard. Jim Salk uses the amorphous core in his speakers, but doesn't hype any benefits. RAAL makes great stuff, but this particular aspect of their product line is a mystery to me. I wouldn't read any significance into it.

Thanks Dennis.

-curtis

Owner of Wave Crest Audio
Volunteer Mod at the Ascend Acoustics Forum
Like all things on the Internet, do your research, as forums have a good amount of misinformation.
Help beat breast cancer!

cschang is offline  
post #458 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 06:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dennis Murphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,557
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Thanks Dennis.

I have the greatest respect for RAAL tweeters (or I wouldn't use them), and I don't want to misrepresent any aspect of their performance. Here is what the factory web site says about the amorphous core. It doesn't mean a lot to me, but perhaps it will to someone out there:

Recently, we finished development of Amorphous C-cores application in our ribbons. Some years ago, we were the first to introduce large gap approach in building ribbon transformers and now we are the first to use AMCC's in ribbons for absolutely uncompressed high power transient transfer and, at the same time, even further improving already the best low-level performance in the world today, by decreasing the width of hysteresis compared to HF ferrite cores. For direct coupled tube SE-ribbon, we succesfuly developed 175:1 ratio, -3dB at 120kHz Amorphous C-core transformers that can carry DC idle current of SET. Impedance conversion is about 30000:1, bringing the 0.1 Ohm ribbon up to 3kOhm, good for plate loading of most triodes in HF.
Dennis Murphy is offline  
post #459 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 07:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MikeBiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Longmont, CO
Posts: 1,022
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

Recently, we finished development of Amorphous C-cores application in our ribbons. Some years ago, we were the first to introduce large gap approach in building ribbon transformers and now we are the first to use AMCC's ....

I used to work for AMCC (Applied Micro-Circuit Corporation) many years ago!
MikeBiker is offline  
post #460 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 07:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Dennis Murphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,557
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBiker View Post

I used to work for AMCC (Applied Micro-Circuit Corporation) many years ago!

I found that post rather amorphous.
Dennis Murphy is offline  
post #461 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 08:24 PM
Advanced Member
 
RicardoJoa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 614
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet Motel View Post

"I am pleased to say that the first few STC's made their way down our production line today. Just for fun, we decided to listen to a pair of them for 2-channel music in our demo room, and. that is where I have been for that past 4 ½ hours

I am not one to hype a product and many of you will take this as a sales pitch, but I am seriously blown away by the performance of these new speakers. The dynamics are just insane and the speaker's ability to throw sound not only at you but also around you is seriously startling.

Not only are these the absolute perfect match to the Sierra Towers, but their performance as mains is causing me to re-think everything. Although this is EASILY the absolute best center I have ever heard, I must re-consider our original intention to market this speaker as a center Their performance as left/right mains is, quite frankly, astonishing and I can see many people using these as fronts.

I assure you, this was completely unexpected but their performance far exceeds the sum of their parts and for those who don't yet own Sierra Towers or for those who need something smaller or don't have the floor space, these absolutely must be seriously considered as mains."

The above is a quote by Dave on his web site. I suppose you might say I have yet another suggestion as a possible participant. I have one on order (with the RAAL upgrade) I would be willing to offer up, but obviously that only gets half the job done.

Jay

That sound interesting. It would be a wtmw large monitor.
RicardoJoa is offline  
post #462 of 1777 Old 02-09-2012, 08:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Randy Bessinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,279
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 36
I might be interested in coming depending on the date if there is room. OT, I guess I am back evalutating speakers these days. I may be posting a thread with another contender (not for this GT but just for consideration) in the next week or two. One that I was surprised in an initial hearing for value (well yea, I did buy them).
Randy Bessinger is offline  
post #463 of 1777 Old 02-10-2012, 05:01 AM
Member
 
dkr919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Dennis, if you attend, could you you also bring your DIY ER18's? I'm very interested in building these and would like to hear how they stack up.
dkr919 is offline  
post #464 of 1777 Old 02-10-2012, 05:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jon Lane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,176
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

The "amorphous core" is an option on both the 70-10 and 70-20. For company buyers, it costs perhaps $75 - $80 extra per unit (probably less). I've worked with both cores in the 70-20, and to me they measure the same, sound the same. I can't find any clear explanation of what the amorphous core is or does. I've heard that it presents an easier load to tube amps, but there's nothing wrong with the regular RAAL in that regard. Jim Salk uses the amorphous core in his speakers, but doesn't hype any benefits. RAAL makes great stuff, but this particular aspect of their product line is a mystery to me. I wouldn't read any significance into it.

Is amorphous alloy used in the pole pieces?

Jon Lane
The Audio Insider
Jon Lane is offline  
post #465 of 1777 Old 02-10-2012, 06:32 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

I might be interested in coming depending on the date if there is room. OT, I guess I am back evalutating speakers these days. I may be posting a thread with another contender (not for this GT but just for consideration) in the next week or two. One that I was surprised in an initial hearing for value (well yea, I did buy them).

We'd love to have you Randy.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #466 of 1777 Old 02-10-2012, 07:17 AM
Member
 
ALMFamily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Sun Prairie, Wisconsin
Posts: 112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet Motel View Post

"I am pleased to say that the first few STC's made their way down our production line today. Just for fun, we decided to listen to a pair of them for 2-channel music in our demo room, and. that is where I have been for that past 4 ½ hours

I am not one to hype a product and many of you will take this as a sales pitch, but I am seriously blown away by the performance of these new speakers. The dynamics are just insane and the speaker's ability to throw sound not only at you but also around you is seriously startling.

Not only are these the absolute perfect match to the Sierra Towers, but their performance as mains is causing me to re-think everything. Although this is EASILY the absolute best center I have ever heard, I must re-consider our original intention to market this speaker as a center Their performance as left/right mains is, quite frankly, astonishing and I can see many people using these as fronts.

I assure you, this was completely unexpected but their performance far exceeds the sum of their parts and for those who don't yet own Sierra Towers or for those who need something smaller or don't have the floor space, these absolutely must be seriously considered as mains."

The above is a quote by Dave on his web site. I suppose you might say I have yet another suggestion as a possible participant. I have one on order (with the RAAL upgrade) I would be willing to offer up, but obviously that only gets half the job done.

Jay

Apologies Jay - would you mind posting a link to that website?
ALMFamily is offline  
post #467 of 1777 Old 02-10-2012, 08:33 AM
Senior Member
 
Pet Motel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: DeKalb, IL.
Posts: 470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMFamily View Post

Apologies Jay - would you mind posting a link to that website?

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/

You will need to create an account to use the forums on the site.

My apologies, don't mean to sidetrack the GTG discussion.

Jay

Heavily addicted SACDBA member, starting the twelve steps tomorrow!
Jay
Pet Motel is offline  
post #468 of 1777 Old 02-10-2012, 12:37 PM
Senior Member
 
65 Electra Glide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 24
It would be interesting if a pair of the GoldenEar Triton towers with RTs were there if nothing else for just to see how they stack up against the Ascend and Salk RT towers at about the same price points.
65 Electra Glide is offline  
post #469 of 1777 Old 02-10-2012, 07:40 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Gents,

Jim Salk will be adding a pair of SoundScape 10's to our GTG speaker list, and he's also penciled in to attend. This keeps getting better and better!

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #470 of 1777 Old 02-10-2012, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
merrymaid520's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 1,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Gents,

Jim Salk will be adding a pair of SoundScape 10's to our GTG speaker list, and he's also penciled in to attend. This keeps getting better and better!

That's awesome. I look forward to meeting Jim and hearing the soundscapes!

Have we narrowed down the date and is Terry hosting?
merrymaid520 is offline  
post #471 of 1777 Old 02-10-2012, 09:45 PM
Member
 
ALMFamily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Sun Prairie, Wisconsin
Posts: 112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My goodness - did I sure pick a great time to find this GTG. Can't wait!!
ALMFamily is offline  
post #472 of 1777 Old 02-11-2012, 12:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
Ascend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Clemente, CA
Posts: 589
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 76
Hi Guys,

Sounds like this will be a great time. I would absolutely LOVE to hear all of these speakers, especially the SoundScapes and the Phil's!

There seems to be some confusion regarding the Amorphous core option for the various RAAL tweeters. I will do my best to try and clarify a few things.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Maybe...

But the Cirrus uses the 70-20:

"Drivers Used RAAL 70-20XR Tweeter
Audio Technology C-Quenze 18H52 Woofer"

Two different versions of the 70-20XR...one with the Amorphous Core and one without?

The Amorphous Core is mentioned on RAAL's website, mentions that it is something new, but not that it is an option.

As Dennis mentioned, this is an optional upgrade and I while I don't have our costs readily accessible at this moment, I believe Dennis's estimates on costs are about right. Like Salk, we are just absorbing the additional costs for the AM core as I do feel it is worthwhile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

The "amorphous core" is an option on both the 70-10 and 70-20. For company buyers, it costs perhaps $75 - $80 extra per unit (probably less). I've worked with both cores in the 70-20, and to me they measure the same, sound the same. I can't find any clear explanation of what the amorphous core is or does. I've heard that it presents an easier load to tube amps, but there's nothing wrong with the regular RAAL in that regard. Jim Salk uses the amorphous core in his speakers, but doesn't hype any benefits. RAAL makes great stuff, but this particular aspect of their product line is a mystery to me. I wouldn't read any significance into it.

Hi Dennis

No real mystery when referring to the "core" -- RAAL is referring to the core of the impedance matching transformer. The actual load presented to an amplifier will not change due to the core material (that is a function of the primary and secondary windings) but since AM core transformers are less lossy, lower power high resolution amplifiers will benefit most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Perhaps the 70-10 RAAL doesn't utilize that core, but only the 70-20?

Available to both...

I will do my best to break it down into the simplest explanation.

A true ribbon tweeter consists of (3) major components. The diaphragm (aluminum with the RAAL's) the magnets (neodymium) and the transformer.

A true ribbon tweeter is designed such that a very thin conductive material is suspended between extremely powerful magnets. A current is applied directly to the diaphragm itself, thus reacting with the strong magnetic field generated by the magnets resulting in the diaphragm itself moving forward and back generating sound waves.

Unlike a dome or planar magnetic tweeter, a true ribbon does not have a voice coil - thus eliminating a very large amount of moving mass which accounts for the incredible transient accuracy which is clearly audible. Sounds simple, right? The lack of a voice coil creates a problem however....

Since voltage is applied directly across the diaphragm itself (the ribbon) and since the ribbon is highly conductive (extremely low resistance), your amplifier is going to see a load that may be as low as 1/10th of an ohm and it is either going to enter protection mode or fail almost instantly. To solve the problem, an impedance matching transformer must be used to keep the amplifier output power (wattage) the same while converting current delivery and, subsequently, voltage to usable levels.

The transformer design in a true ribbon tweeter is critical to performance as all transformers are subject to various losses, MUCH more so than capacitors, resistors and inductors. Keep in mind that the signal being sent to the ribbon is first traveling through the transformer and being transformed

I won't get into complex transformer design but a transformer consists of a core (typically metal) with one set of windings on one side of the core (primary) and another set of windings on the other (secondary). Current flows through the primary windings, creating a magnetic field in the core. This magnetic field then releases into the secondary windings creating a current which is directly proportional to the ratio of the # of windings in the secondary coil compared to the primary, and the process continues generating a "transformed" current flow.

The transformer core material has a significant influence on the performance of the transformer as it is continually subject to magnetic polarization. Ferrite cores are typical and are of very high quality, however, Amorphous metal cores are more efficient and can magnetize and then demagnetize faster and with less losses compared to ferrite cores.

Evidence of this will not show up on frequency domain measurements but are indeed evident in time domain measurements.

I have taken comparative measurements between the AM core units and the ferrite core units and the differences are noticeable. As far as actually hearing a difference between the two, there were times when I thought I heard subtle differences in micro-dynamics and yet other times I could not tell them apart. However, these are with my ears and we all detect sounds differently.

That said, it is in my professional opinion that if going with a RAAL ribbon, the AM core option is much more important to overall performance than choosing exotic crossover capacitors, silver solder, magic stones and various other audiophile tweaks. Performance differences are measurable; therefore they can certainly be audible and AM core transformers are the choice when designing a high performance transformer (less losses.) Since many of you are already considering what is, perhaps, the best ribbon tweeter available, it certainly makes sense to go with the higher performance transformer option.

If interested, a simple Google search on Amorphous metal or even Amorphous core transformers will provide more detailed information.

Hope this helps!!!

David Fabrikant

audio professional and soft spoken representative of www.AscendAcoustics.com

Ascend is offline  
post #473 of 1777 Old 02-11-2012, 05:54 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymaid520 View Post


Have we narrowed down the date and is Terry hosting?

Terry has confirmed he will host. As for the date, check your email. Right now it's either March 31st or April 14th. Hopefully we can all agree and pick one this weekend.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #474 of 1777 Old 02-11-2012, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
merrymaid520's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 1,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Terry has confirmed he will host. As for the date, check your email. Right now it's either March 31st or April 14th. Hopefully we can all agree and pick one this weekend.

Sounds good.
merrymaid520 is offline  
post #475 of 1777 Old 02-11-2012, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
merrymaid520's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milwaukee WI
Posts: 1,446
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Dogearz (Alex) would like to attend as well. By chance are we approaching any limits yet on attendance?
merrymaid520 is offline  
post #476 of 1777 Old 02-11-2012, 06:37 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymaid520 View Post

Dogearz (Alex) would like to attend as well. By chance are we approaching any limits yet on attendance?

We're still in good shape, so Alex is on the list.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #477 of 1777 Old 02-11-2012, 07:58 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Randy Bessinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,279
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascend View Post

lower power high resolution amplifiers will benefit most.



Available to both...
Hope this helps!!!

Hii David,

Could you give me an example of a lower power high resolution amp? Would that be a tube amp of some kind? Just curious.

Thanks,

Randy
Randy Bessinger is offline  
post #478 of 1777 Old 02-11-2012, 11:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dennis Murphy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,557
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascend View Post

Hi Guys,

Sounds like this will be a great time. I would absolutely LOVE to hear all of these speakers, especially the SoundScapes and the Phil's!

There seems to be some confusion regarding the Amorphous core option for the various RAAL tweeters. I will do my best to try and clarify a few things.

As Dennis mentioned, this is an optional upgrade and I while I don't have our costs readily accessible at this moment, I believe Dennis's estimates on costs are about right. Like Salk, we are just absorbing the additional costs for the AM core as I do feel it is worthwhile.



Hi Dennis

No real mystery when referring to the "core" -- RAAL is referring to the core of the impedance matching transformer. The actual load presented to an amplifier will not change due to the core material (that is a function of the primary and secondary windings) but since AM core transformers are less lossy, lower power high resolution amplifiers will benefit most.



Available to both...

I will do my best to break it down into the simplest explanation.

A true ribbon tweeter consists of (3) major components. The diaphragm (aluminum with the RAAL's) the magnets (neodymium) and the transformer.

A true ribbon tweeter is designed such that a very thin conductive material is suspended between extremely powerful magnets. A current is applied directly to the diaphragm itself, thus reacting with the strong magnetic field generated by the magnets resulting in the diaphragm itself moving forward and back generating sound waves.

Unlike a dome or planar magnetic tweeter, a true ribbon does not have a voice coil - thus eliminating a very large amount of moving mass which accounts for the incredible transient accuracy which is clearly audible. Sounds simple, right? The lack of a voice coil creates a problem however....

Since voltage is applied directly across the diaphragm itself (the ribbon) and since the ribbon is highly conductive (extremely low resistance), your amplifier is going to see a load that may be as low as 1/10th of an ohm and it is either going to enter protection mode or fail almost instantly. To solve the problem, an impedance matching transformer must be used to keep the amplifier output power (wattage) the same while converting current delivery and, subsequently, voltage to usable levels.

The transformer design in a true ribbon tweeter is critical to performance as all transformers are subject to various losses, MUCH more so than capacitors, resistors and inductors. Keep in mind that the signal being sent to the ribbon is first traveling through the transformer and being transformed

I won't get into complex transformer design but a transformer consists of a core (typically metal) with one set of windings on one side of the core (primary) and another set of windings on the other (secondary). Current flows through the primary windings, creating a magnetic field in the core. This magnetic field then releases into the secondary windings creating a current which is directly proportional to the ratio of the # of windings in the secondary coil compared to the primary, and the process continues generating a "transformed" current flow.

The transformer core material has a significant influence on the performance of the transformer as it is continually subject to magnetic polarization. Ferrite cores are typical and are of very high quality, however, Amorphous metal cores are more efficient and can magnetize and then demagnetize faster and with less losses compared to ferrite cores.

Evidence of this will not show up on frequency domain measurements but are indeed evident in time domain measurements.

I have taken comparative measurements between the AM core units and the ferrite core units and the differences are noticeable. As far as actually hearing a difference between the two, there were times when I thought I heard subtle differences in micro-dynamics and yet other times I could not tell them apart. However, these are with my ears and we all detect sounds differently.

That said, it is in my professional opinion that if going with a RAAL ribbon, the AM core option is much more important to overall performance than choosing exotic crossover capacitors, silver solder, magic stones and various other audiophile tweaks. Performance differences are measurable; therefore they can certainly be audible and AM core transformers are the choice when designing a high performance transformer (less losses.) Since many of you are already considering what is, perhaps, the best ribbon tweeter available, it certainly makes sense to go with the higher performance transformer option.

If interested, a simple Google search on Amorphous metal or even Amorphous core transformers will provide more detailed information.

Hope this helps!!!

Thnaks for taking the time to lay all that out. I knew what the "core" was, I just wasn't sure what practical impact changing the material might make. I'll probably stick with the regular core, since I really could't hear any advantage to the AMC 70-20 I worked with. But I don't necessarily disagree that it would be money better spent than designer caps or inductors. I couldn't quite tell whether you were planning on attending the Wisconsin GTG. I'm not sure whether I wil or won't. But if you do make it out, it would be great to have one of your new center channels there. I don't plan to offer anything like that, and would like to hear one so I know whether it would make a good match for Philharmonic mains.
Dennis Murphy is offline  
post #479 of 1777 Old 02-11-2012, 12:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Nuance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 11,583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 58
^Two would be better so we could run them as a matched pair for the comparison.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
Dr. Olive's Blog

 

 

No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
sounds good. - Dr. Floyd Toole
Nuance is offline  
post #480 of 1777 Old 02-11-2012, 02:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
dlbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 137
My vote is for 4/14. Can't make 3/31 but don't worry about that if that works for everyone else.
dlbeck is offline  
Reply Speakers

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off