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Old 04-16-2012, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post


I'm going to have to respectfully slightly disagree just a bit.

Numbers are so much easier to see, whereas verbal descriptions are much easier to misinterpret.

Bright. Forward. Smooth. Laid back. Sweet. Harsh. Chocolaty. What?

I agree.

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Old 04-16-2012, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Alright Mr., you just bought yourself another 30 minutes in time out!

Oh, C'mon, man, that's just not fair!
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Nethawk View Post
I have to wonder how the acoustic panels behind the speakers might have affected the rear wave of the Phils. While this has been mentioned previously it has not been addressed by the listeners, nor do I believe I've read that any midrange fill was experimented with in the listening environment. Given that this is a characteristic of the speakers and their design I might conclude that this handicapped their showing amongst several great competitors.

But then, I know nothing!


Blame the room or blame the design. As long as you blame someone right?
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:26 PM
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I am being quite amused by reading the bantering that goes on in these forums. As for the gentleman who thinks my husband is writing as me you are way off. I may be a woman but I do have an opinion of my own. If you would have been invited to the GTG, you would have been able to meet me. I have opinions on speakers even though I am a FEMALE, and Nuance and I don't completely agree on what we heard at the GTG. There are over 20 guys that can verify I was there. Also, there are a few guys that I talked to about speakers that can verify I know a little about speakers. I may be biased in my opinions on speakers but I like what I like. I don't need to be objective because I am not on a hunt for speakers. My husband, Nuance, and I have been through our fair share of speakers in our married life and we have found something, Salk SongTowers, that we both like and enjoy. The only way for anyone to truly know how a speaker sounds is to audition it in your own room. Anyways, I hope I get to see some of you the next time the Wisconsin guys have a GTG!
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I'm going to have to respectfully slightly disagree just a bit.

Numbers are so much easier to see, whereas verbal descriptions are much easier to misinterpret.

Bright. Forward. Smooth. Laid back. Sweet. Harsh. Chocolaty. What?

I disagree. These GTGs are not about a product winning. A higher number would imply something was better. We all have certain preferences so the numbers would vary between people. Someone may equally enjoy the treble of two different tweeters so rate these both a 10 but these could still sound different. I prefer not to use a number grading system since people often misrepresent the statistics or do not understand limitations. You can at least gather a correlation from subjective comments.

I will wait to post further thoughts/questions until everyone from the GTG posts their impressions. Looks like there will need to be a page with links to the pictures and people's thoughts.

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge - Stephen Hawking

 

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Old 04-16-2012, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrs. Nuance View Post

...... I may be biased in my opinions on speakers but I like what I like. I don't need to be objective because I am not on a hunt for speakers......

Love it!

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Old 04-16-2012, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffc1 View Post


Blame the room or blame the design. As long as you blame someone right?

Ok now you're starting to piss ME off.

1. If a speaker is bad, it's either a bad design, bad room, or a component is busted. Either way, YES. You blame something.

2. Please go away. If you don't like Dennis, Nuance, Jim, then don't purchase speakers from them (Jim & Dennis) and don't talk to him (Nuance). If I wanted to read snide annoying comments, I wouldn't have put Nuance and ADTG on time out. Would you like to join them?

As a friend of mine once said: Don't go away angry...just go away!

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Old 04-16-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Nuance View Post

My husband, Nuance, and I have been through our fair share of speakers in our married life and we have found something, Salk SongTowers, that we both like and enjoy. The only way for anyone to truly know how a speaker sounds is to audition it in your own room. Anyways, I hope I get to see some of you the next time the Wisconsin guys have a GTG!

Kudos to your husband for including you on his speaker quest. I'm like Cartman when it comes to my gear...


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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Old 04-16-2012, 12:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

Can't we coexist peacefully, gentleman?? Both of you need to smoke a BongTower and relax. Taking jabs at each other is really not necessary! Clearly this stems from a previous argument. Whatever the issue was, it needs to be worked out.

You both have kids and you're both my elders, but I'm putting you two on time out!

Agreed - Nuance needs to stop taking every post so seriously, and going on full-attack mode if even the slightest thing is said against the Phil's. Every post doesnt have to be an advertisement of the Phils or how great Dennis Murphy is in real life.

This get together brought out the limitations and bright spots of the Phils. Hopefully he will stop advertising the Phil's as "soundscape killers" now he heard them.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by kwarny View Post


I disagree. These GTGs are not about a product winning.

IMHO this was a shoot-out not a GTG. Once you score the speakers, it stops being a fun "let's listen together guys!" And starts to be "speaker A is better than speaker C."

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Old 04-16-2012, 12:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Monkish54 View Post

Ok now you're starting to piss ME off.

1. If a speaker is bad, it's either a bad design, bad room, or a component is busted. Either way, YES. You blame something.

2. Please go away. If you don't like Dennis, Nuance, Jim, then don't purchase speakers from them (Jim & Dennis) and don't talk to him (Nuance). If I wanted to read snide annoying comments, I wouldn't have put Nuance and ADTG on time out. Would you like to join them?

As a friend of mine once said: Don't go away angry...just go away!

Keep blaming then bro....as long as it makes you sleep better at night!
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:38 PM
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Not to worry there Mrs Nuance, I know your not a fabrication or figment as you have been to a few of the gtgs I have hosted at my place for both subwoofers and speakers over the years. Its funny that I knew Nuances father for roughly 20 years through my business and never really met his son and now we.have gone through so many gtgs and hung out on many occasions other then this stuff.

Its always great to see you and your kids, sad I missed this event.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:49 PM
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For listening evaluation, using a number system or verbal, there is no right way. That is because people are evaluating based on different needs. The guy looking for an HT speaker to do clean dynamics at reference level is not using the same evaluation criteria as the guy that is looking for 2-channel music speakers played at a low to moderate volume. Does not mean one speaker is better than the other, just means a different tool for a different job. Myself, I am an HT guy (the first step in any program is admitting your addiction), so for me a speaker has to be able to do clean dynamics for HT peaks. For me the only speakers at the GTG that I would consider are the JTR's and the Seaton Sound, but that is based on what I want out of a speaker and that is not going to be what others are looking for in a speaker.

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Old 04-16-2012, 12:54 PM
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Thanks to all those who wrote down their observations and thoughts during the GTG. This is hard work and they are great to read. I appreciate them all.

Did anyone else notice that Archaea did all his listening while sitting on the floor in front of the left speaker? I point this out mainly because he was on the floor. I have no problem with his listening to primarily one speaker as opposed to sitting between both speakers to get the stereo effect. This is fine for observing many qualities of speakers, especially overall tonal balance. But sitting on the floor is not the best location for many of the speakers listened to on Saturday. I don't know about the two heavy hitting HT speakers, but all of the Salks, Philharmonic and Ascend were designed for listeners who are sitting with their heads approximately at tweeter height. This makes a big difference in how they sound. This is especially true for the MTM speakers, but true in general for all.

Also there is the business about bass sound, floor bounce, relative distance between the listener and speaker, and height above the floor. The various cancellations and additions that are known to occur can also have a large effect on bass perception. I can't predict how siting on the floor affected his perceptions of all this, I just want to bring it to peoples' attention that it may have played a large role.

Thanks go to TJHUB and Nuance as well as all the others who helped organize and host this GTG. I certainly appreciate how much work went into this. I also thank all those who hauled those heavy speakers. That also was a lot of work.

For all those in the peanut gallery who can't stop flooding this thread with would of/should of posts, I suggest that you take some of the effort you put into these posts, multiply it by 1000, and organize your own GTG. Then you can do it the way you think it should be done.
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffc1 View Post


Keep blaming then bro....as long as it makes you sleep better at night!

If you listen to a bad speaker wouldn't you try to figure out why it is bad? I.E.Blame something.....

For instance, I listened to the B&W 800D and liked it. Then I listened to the Salon2 and realized the 800D is not how I want my speakers to sound. When I looked at the Stereophile measurments I noticed the Off-Axis performance of the 800D is not very good and the Salon2 Off-Axis performance is very good. So I blamed the overall poor performance on the off-axis response (among other things).

HAVE:

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Old 04-16-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffc1 View Post

Blame the room or blame the design. As long as you blame someone right?

Well the room cannot be blamed for everything; however, a dipole or open back mid does create more complex issues to be dealt with. In effect the room becomes the "box" (or at least in this case for the midrange driver).

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Thinking Inside the Box...
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Old 04-16-2012, 12:59 PM
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Archaea was definitely glued to the floor near the left speaker throughout the 2 channel listening GTG. I was seated on the floor on the right during a few segments of the GTG, including for the most expensive speakers that had technical difficulty with the left speaker.

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Originally Posted by R Swerdlow View Post

Did anyone else notice that Archaea did all his listening while sitting on the floor in front of the left speaker? I point this out mainly because he was on the floor. I have no problem with his listening to primarily one speaker as opposed to sitting between both speakers to get the stereo effect. This is fine for observing many qualities of speakers, especially overall tonal balance. But sitting on the floor is not the best location for many of the speakers listened to on Saturday. I don't know about the two heavy hitting HT speakers, but all of the Salks, Philharmonic and Ascend were designed for listeners who are sitting with their heads approximately at tweeter height. This makes a big difference in how they sound. This is especially true for the MTM speakers, but true in general for all.

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Old 04-16-2012, 01:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I will admit that I find it very difficult to hear significant differences among the great speakers I have heard. Ultra accurate speakers sound very close to the original source. I don't like to lie.

That's what happens when you mainly listen to Justin Bieber. Of course they all start to sound the same.

cheers,

AJ
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:04 PM
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I am sure that everyone went there wanting to confirm their impressions regarding certain speakers, and yes comparisons are made because of this. Very few people took an official score, so I would disagree that this was a shoot-out for the vast majority of people. I was just glad to be able to hear so many quality speakers in the same setting, and to be able to hear the JTR and Seaton speakers play a few movie scenes.

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IMHO this was a shoot-out not a GTG. Once you score the speakers, it stops being a fun "let's listen together guys!" And starts to be "speaker A is better than speaker C."

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Old 04-16-2012, 01:05 PM
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We missed you too at the GTG Patrick. As soon as I heard Mark Seaton's speakers I texted Brandon and said that you would love these speakers, since you like your base to shake the foundation of your house
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:08 PM
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Yes, I have also considered front projection, and I am still open to it. The hurdle I have with that is where you can go to demo a screen and projector and compare them to other options. There is also the issue with what screen ratio to purchase and the optimal projector to get.

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If you are thinking 92" TV, have you thought about front projection?

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Old 04-16-2012, 01:09 PM
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Monkish! Life got easier with negative dude in my ignore list. Until you do the same we can collectively blame Planned Parenthood

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Old 04-16-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffc1 View Post

Agreed - Nuance needs to stop taking every post so seriously, and going on full-attack mode if even the slightest thing is said against the Phil's. Every post doesnt have to be an advertisement of the Phils or how great Dennis Murphy is in real life.

This get together brought out the limitations and bright spots of the Phils. Hopefully he will stop advertising the Phil's as "soundscape killers" now he heard them.

Wow - you're totally way off base. Sneek peak, I didn't care for the Philharmonics. WHOOPS - don't you look silly! My review will be posted shortly, as I have grown tired of folks like you and your unwanted, immature comments.

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For listening evaluation, using a number system or verbal, there is no right way. That is because people are evaluating based on different needs. The guy looking for an HT speaker to do clean dynamics at reference level is not using the same evaluation criteria as the guy that is looking for 2-channel music speakers played at a low to moderate volume. Does not mean one speaker is better than the other, just means a different tool for a different job. Myself, I am an HT guy (the first step in any program is admitting your addiction), so for me a speaker has to be able to do clean dynamics for HT peaks. For me the only speakers at the GTG that I would consider are the JTR's and the Seaton Sound, but that is based on what I want out of a speaker and that is not going to be what others are looking for in a speaker.

Well said, sir. I would have loved to have you with us on Saturday.

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That's what happens when you mainly listen to Justin Bieber. Of course they all start to sound the same.

cheers,

AJ

LOL - well played, sir. Well played.

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Old 04-16-2012, 01:16 PM
 
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Well the room cannot be blamed for everything; however, a dipole or open back mid does create more complex issues to be dealt with. In effect the room becomes the "box" (or at least in this case for the midrange driver).

These so called "open backed mids" are what a luddite as myself might refer to as a good 'ol U-baffle. They will generate a frequency dependent hyper-cardioid type pattern, based on the U dimensions and damping. The "rear" output should actually be attenuated enough as to have minimal impact in the mid field at the LP. Dipole mid is a different thing entirely.
It would be interesting to see the actual measured output.

cheers,

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Old 04-16-2012, 01:19 PM
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In my opinion the floor was not a bad place to be. I moved to the sweet spot on a couple rotations and it wasn't really much different. I could still definately hear left and right but was definately closer to left. I believe Terry and Brandon and PAD/BigRed and PennyNike1 will back me up that the floor was surprisingly better than one might think as they all took turns on the floor next to me for short stints. My proximity to the speaker also allowed me to pick up intricacies that I may otherwise have missed who sat off axis, or moved around, or picked up reflections from the room more. Several have said, including myself, we all bring unintended bias into our listening session. What have we heard, what are we most familiar with, what is our goal in a potential purchase, what are we most intensely listening for? What do we like? That's why I tried to pretext my reviews with my background and subjective likes! If you don't subjectively like the same things don't place my feedback as high as someone's feedback who enjoys the same things you do.

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Old 04-16-2012, 01:20 PM
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Very well said sir! Not only was it great to hear the JTR and Seaton speakers in the same room for music and home theater, but it was equally cool to meet and talk to the masterminds behind the products. It was a perfect Saturday!

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For me the only speakers at the GTG that I would consider are the JTR's and the Seaton Sound, but that is based on what I want out of a speaker and that is not going to be what others are looking for in a speaker.

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Old 04-16-2012, 01:22 PM
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Bantering, bickering, bashing, blaspheming, bragging, whats not to love about a GTG thread ? Man, if ever there was a huge incentive to post thoughts about a speaker comparison this has got to be it !

I would like to thank our gracious host Terry for letting all of us enjoy this awesome event in his gorgeous home, and to Nuance for organizing the GTG. It was cool to converse with the other attendees, folks are so much more polite, and thoughtful when face to face!

Never, as when we all listened to the same thing, and heard things differently, has the advice to audition in your own space, with your own ears, been more positively verified. As mentioned previously this was a group of very capable speakers, so there was probaly more similarity between them than differences.

In the end, I was happy to go home and listen to my own system with which I'm immensely pleased, and have had no regrets, or wishes to upgrade. If my system was in a room the size of this GTG, I might have felt differently.

I will say, if I were building a dedicated theater in a large room, the Seatons definitely provided the sound one might expect in a real theater, and would be my first choice for that application. I thought they were quite impressive, and even did pretty well with the music tracks.

Terry's Salks were also quite impressive, and were a good match to his room. They were the first full range tower speakers capable of providing sufficient bass in his room without a sub IMHO.

The Ascends, and the Song Towers just didn't have the driver area to fill that large of a space at the required volume levels.

The Phils were the first speakers played, and as I was unfamiliar with most of the music tracks, I didn't have a good reference for what I thought they should sound like. On the orchestral track "Red Rain", they reproduced a french horn, and a tympani very convincingly, as well as any I heard subsequently IMHO. I was not in the sweet spot for these speakers, and didn't pay enough attention to the vocals to comment on those. I suppose, in retrospect, it would have been nice to hear them again at the end so as to get a better idea of how they compared with the others.

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Old 04-16-2012, 01:25 PM
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I can confirm that I was pleasantly surprised how good things sounded during my time on the floor. I did, however, sit in the sweat spot (middle couch) for a good portion of the JTR and Seaton demonstrations in order to attempt to enjoy the speakers to the maximum.

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In my opinion the floor was not a bad place to be. I moved to the sweet spot on a couple rotations and it wasn't really much different. I could still definately hear left and right but was definately closer to left. I believe Terry and Brandon and PAD/BigRed and PennyNike1 will back me up that the floor was surprisingly better than one might think as they all took turns on the floor next to me for short stints.

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Old 04-16-2012, 01:26 PM
 
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LOL - well played, sir. Well played.

I actually happen to agree with him to some extent, the better speakers will sound more similar than dissimilar. Should come down to bass, dynamics...and spatial (re)production.
Now I have no idea how ATDG determines this with his Phil Spector/NYC skyline setup.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:27 PM
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[quote=lifeisbeautiful;21911557]...Does your SongTowers have a glossy finish?

Yes our SongTowers have the high gloss finish. I love them!
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