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post #1171 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 07:51 PM
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I guess I feel obligated to post this (really to help those reading this thread). I definitely have views about imaging, compression (distortion?) , accuracy, dynamics etc and speakers. I believe there are real dynamic speakers and speakers designed to play at lower spls but with after tones decay etc.
(and some that AIM for both).
Now that said if you are looking for great dynamic speakers and speakers that will just blow u away at higher spls, mark, jeff will give you GREAT bang for buck AND they are great guys. That said personalities aside and if you can get by a lot, of well, attitude, for ( only) slightly smaller rooms, I have to say that the gedlee abbeys offered a lot of the qualities that some might be looking for aside from stereo pinpoint imaging (which will not be important with a center). They play very loud no distortion or compression and I thought they were darn good for music, pinpoint imaging not withstanding. I owned them and sold them to a very knowledgeable avsr who had linkwitz Orion's and he loved the abbeys. They were first generation abbeys and they supposedly have been improved. Fwiw, this guy has had a lot of high end speakers and equipment and post in the over 20k forum. This isn't an endorsement of the abbeys although I think they are very good. What I am trying to do is give a view of why some liked one speaker over another. Look at the ratings and then look at how loud the speaker will play before breaking up then look at what the reviewer liked!

Also, although I did not hear the distortion in the one selection I heard on soundscape 10's, they blew me away. Just as an FYI, read Sean olive, toole, and Nousaine about comparing only one speaker for comparisons. I agree with them.

If I ever do a blind test, it will be only one speaker vs one other speaker, quick switching. AND those tests are damn hard to do fairly.
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post #1172 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 07:57 PM
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Don't know how I missed that, have been trying to keep an eye out for them, they are gorgeous. Thanks.

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post #1173 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 09:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

I don't dispute your findings that every speaker sounds about the same in your room.

Don't think that's quite the same as "more similar than dissimilar", which I believe is his actual position. As one would expect from his speakers which feature smooth on and off axis above the schroeder frequency of the room.
So again, main differences would be bass, dynamics and spatial (re)production.
Maybe a tad more/less "air" at the very tip top....assuming his hearing range is capable of discerning this. Given the mid level sensitivity of each design, perhaps even dynamics could be fairly benign.

cheers,

AJ
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post #1174 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 09:20 PM
 
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Thanks for sharing Dr. Geddes and Dr. Lees work. There is a FANTASTIC page on their site with some white papers regarding distortion perception. It's well worth reading for anyone into this stuff.

http://www.gedlee.com/distortion_perception.htm

It might help explain what people heard at this GTG and help them understand why.

The Abbey sure looks like a nice loudspeaker as well I might add!

I'm curious what Emminence driver are they using and what tweeter? I also have some experience with polyurethane used as a basket material as well as a speaker cab material. I'm no Dr like those two but I noticed polyurethane seems to have fantastic dampening properties when in a fibre composite. I actually think it's a better material to use for a driver basket than cast aluminum. An example of a driver like that is Dave of Ascend's gel cone driver. I think it's a made for him by Aurum Cantus or Audax HDA. There is some amazing polyurethane glass fibre material with amazing acoustic properties. Nano and fibre composite enriched poly is very interesting cab and basket material. Audax seems to be one of the few driver manufacturers that make baskets out of this material.

THANKS FOR SHARING RANDY!

$900 bucks for a baffle made of basically... PLASTIC is absolutely LAUGHABLE though ehh! just insane pricing... no offense doctors but I think you're pricing is ABSOLUTELY INSANE.

I don't understand why people in this industry charge prices like that. I almost consider it an insult to my intellegence to ask a GRAND for a chunck of PLASTIC. Even if the loudspeaker is BRILLIANT... the fact they would even have the balls/guts to try to sell off a plastic baffle for a GRAND PER SPEAKER is basically... INSULTING isn't it... to any REASONABLE PERSON...

But hey people in this field are so used to dealing with people that have a lot more money than BRAINS!
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post #1175 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 09:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

I have to say that the gedlee abbeys offered a lot of the qualities that some might be looking for aside from stereo pinpoint imaging (which will not be important with a center).

I'm surprised by this. I would expect them to have quite pinpoint imaging. I suspect early production horn/throat issues rather than the actual design (disclaimer -haven't heard them).
Of course, pin-point imaging is a artificial construct of pan potted stereo, perfect for audio-studiophiles...but I digress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Just as an FYI, read Sean olive, toole, and Nousaine about comparing only one speaker for comparisons. I agree with them.
If I ever do a blind test, it will be only one speaker vs one other speaker, quick switching. AND those tests are damn hard to do fairly.

I assume you mean one pair(vs pair) at a time, not mono vs mono?

cheers,

AJ

p.s. are you attending the GTG in Dallas? Drag ATDG with you please
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post #1176 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 09:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

I'm curious what Emminence driver are they using and what tweeter?

Pretty sure the drivers are B&C
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post #1177 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I'm surprised by this. I would expect them to have quite pinpoint imaging. I suspect early production horn/throat issues rather than the actual design (disclaimer -haven't heard them).
Of course, pin-point imaging is a artificial construct of pan potted stereo, perfect for audio-studiophiles...but I digress.


I assume you mean one pair(vs pair) at a time, not mono vs mono?

cheers,

AJ

p.s. are you attending the GTG in Dallas? Drag ATDG with you please



Nope, read or write Sean or Tom. They compare Mono e mono
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post #1178 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I'm surprised by this. I would expect them to have quite pinpoint imaging. I suspect early production horn/throat issues rather than the actual design (disclaimer -haven't heard them).
Of course, pin-point imaging is a artificial construct of pan potted stereo, perfect for audio-studiophiles...but I digress.


I assume you mean one pair(vs pair) at a time, not mono vs mono?

cheers,

AJ

p.s. are you attending the GTG in Dallas? Drag ATDG with you please



Nope, read or write Sean or Tom. They compare Mono e mono, When is the gtg in Dallas?
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post #1179 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 09:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Nope, read or write Sean or Tom. They compare Mono e mono

I know and I have.
Still disagree...as does Dr Geddes and a few others IIRC.
Mono vs mono is ideal to identify differences, resonances, etc. Agree there.
But that is not how stereo speakers will be end used. Not spatially or binaural perceptually. Period.

cheers,

AJ
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post #1180 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 09:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Pretty sure the drivers are B&C

It's sure amazing how the Italians drivers are so so similar to Emminence. Do the two outfits have an R&D relationship?

I still can't believe they want a grand for a PLASTIC baffle...

EACH!

it's LAUGHABLE!

I seriously think a documentary film should be made about this hobby and industry. I think the regular public would be BLOWN AWAY at what some gear costs and the scams and frauds the industry is RIFE with...

A grand for a plastic front baffle... what an insult to anyone's intelligence IMHO BUT wealthy cats will pay. This includes people you'd think have a friggin BRAIN like doctors and lawyers etc. What a crazy industry and hobby deserving of a documentary!
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post #1181 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I know and I have.
Still disagree...as does Dr Geddes and a few others IIRC.
Mono vs mono is ideal to identify differences, resonances, etc. Agree there.
But that is not how stereo speakers will be end used. Not spatially or binaural perceptually. Period.

cheers,

AJ

Well I actually learn from disagreements BUT when is is the get together?
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post #1182 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

It's sure amazing how the Italians drivers are so so similar to Emminence. Do the two outfits have an R&D relationship

Dude, no offense, but your posts WRT loudspeakers are kind of... annoying. I think you need to calm down, clear you mind, and stop being so... hyper.

- NO one cares about the Clearwave speakers in this thread. It's not that they're not good speakers, it's that they're totally off topic.
- There is no particular "amazing similarity" between Eminence and B&C. Both are pro audio transducer companies, but that's akin to saying SB Acoustics and Usher Audio are SO similar
- THe Philharmonics do NOT overdrive the midrange simply because it's not crossed where you, based on what you think you know about the driver, would choose to cross them.
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post #1183 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Well I actually learn from disagreements BUT when is is the get together?

Let me add the reason I posted what I did is that because the soundscape 10 had a bad midrange on the left speaker everyone said we can't judge the speaker at all. I didn't agree as I think we could listen to one speaker and get a lot of info based on the fact that as Duane Alllman would say they were " hittin the note". Of course i am just an old guy that doesn't even rcognize most of music! That said, I liked some of it and I am always looking for new music (copeand not withstanding...who I have).
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post #1184 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 10:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Well I actually learn from disagreements

Partial disagreement, partial...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

BUT when is is the get together?

May 4th-6th
Guessing around 40+ speakers, before counting the DIYers.

cheers,

AJ
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post #1185 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 10:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger View Post

Let me add the reason I posted what I did is that because the soundscape 10 had a bad midrange on the left speaker everyone said we can't judge the speaker at all. I didn't agree as I think we could listen to one speaker and get a lot of info based on the fact that as Duane Alllman would say they were " hittin the note". Of course i am just old guy that doesn't even rcognize most of music!

What are you, The Rock now, quoting yourself?
There's plenty you can tell listening in mono, plenty.
Like I said...partial disagreement.

cheers,

AJ

Know your role
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post #1186 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 10:09 PM
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Randy,

I have all the tracks from the get together. I'd like you to come over and listen to the tracks at my house on the Wharfedales in my untreated room played through my HTPC and Onkyo TX-NR1007 using pure audio mode. Then maybe I can listen to the tracks in your room on your equipment? I know it's not the same - but it might be interesting and fun! Can you come over this weekend?

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post #1187 of 1777 Old 04-16-2012, 10:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Dude, no offense, but your posts WRT loudspeakers are kind of... annoying. I think you need to calm down, clear you mind, and stop being so... hyper.

- NO one cares about the Clearwave speakers in this thread. It's not that they're not good speakers, it's that they're totally off topic.
- There is no particular "amazing similarity" between Eminence and B&C. Both are pro audio transducer companies, but that's akin to saying SB Acoustics and Usher Audio are SO similar
- THe Philharmonics do NOT overdrive the midrange simply because it's not crossed where you, based on what you think you know about the driver, would choose to cross them.

I said they LOOK similar and they DO! They use the same surround design and even very similar cones and motor designs. I'd say SB Acoustics is similar to some Scanspeak stuff because Ulrik Schmidt and Frank Nielsen of Danesian Audio originate from Scanspeak but I wouldn't say SB Acoustics and Usher Audio are similar buddy. I only mentioned Jeds speakers and Zaphs because it would be nice to have seen some DIY in there for testing as well. Also I mentioned Jeds massives because it's a class of speaker that can compete with Seaton's and JTR and also outside of pro audio there isn't many loudspeakers that can push 110db without strain and fill a large room.

Regarding the Neo8 in the Phil, can you explain to me what the GTG listeners heard and are reporting? I'm also no sure what you mean by "overdrive the midrange". I think I've been most positive regarding the Phils to be honest. I only questioned how low it's crossed and I suggested it might suffer some problems at certain frequencies. This was basically confirmed with what the GTG people reported. You think it would LEND CREDENCE TO ME to have predicted this and for it to be affirmed when they drove them at 100 db. Personally it wouldn't affect my purchasing decision because I prob listen to similar music to the designer and I'd never push them to bloody 94 db plus as I care about my hearing.

As for the personal attacks telling me to calm down, you're hyper... dude...

what ever man

PS I bet one of two things happened to Phil... they either connected the top cab out of phase OR the Neo8s solder pads were OVERHEATED and the thing was damaged. It's so very easy to damage a Neo8 when soldering wire to it's pads! You seriously can't touch the solder iron to those pads for more than two seconds without damaging the transducer. I even warned Denis about this in his thread and was kicked out of that thread but hey I'm just some idiot from the net right... OR it's just a property of the speaker's design. It's not complicated!
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post #1188 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Don't think that's quite the same as "more similar than dissimilar", which I believe is his actual position. As one would expect from his speakers which feature smooth on and off axis above the schroeder frequency of the room.
So again, main differences would be bass, dynamics and spatial (re)production.
Maybe a tad more/less "air" at the very tip top....assuming his hearing range is capable of discerning this. Given the mid level sensitivity of each design, perhaps even dynamics could be fairly benign.

cheers,

AJ

Whoops, I read "significant difference". Guess we use different alpha levels . I want to apologize for assuming that it could of been due excessive comb filtering and early reflections of high magnitude. I just saw a very narrow room and really really early reflections. Still learning.

I also want to apologize for polluting the thread. Thanks to the WI guys for sparking my interest in high end speakers. I am hoping that one local will allow me to audition the SongTower (CA15 with OW1) and his HT2-TL (LCY) with another locals Ascend Tower (NRT Tweeter) in the same room. The HT2-TL are still one of my favorite speakers to date. It has the same midrange as the SongTower while sounding cleaner from the bass to the treble. I can only imagine the increase in clarity, ambience, and soundstage in the midrange when crossed over to a quality sub to relieve it. I still think about that midrange every time I listen. Seems NE and WI are not too different (besides that your university sports are better in almost every sport).

Chip Chip Cheerio,

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post #1189 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 05:27 AM
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Did I enter into the wrong thread? Is this a thread about AJ's speakers or Dr. Geddes dedicated thread? Just kidding guys. Those are actually two speakers I want to hear some day. It's too bad AJ lives in Florida...or rather it's too bad we live in cold Wisconsin. Do you ever attend the Midwestern shows, AJ, such as AKFest?

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post #1190 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffc1 View Post

Hopefully he will stop advertising the Phil's as "soundscape killers" now he heard them.

NEVER have I said they were SoundScape killers. You're imagining things.

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post #1191 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

....I have all the tracks from the get together. .....

Would you mind posting the track list? I'd like to check out the music that was played at the GTG (I bet others would be interested as well).

Thanks.

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post #1192 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 06:48 AM
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. You're imaging things.

typo, or play on words?
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post #1193 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 06:56 AM
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would you mind posting the track list? I'd like to check out the music that was played at the gtg (i bet others would be interested as well).

Thanks.

+1

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post #1194 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 06:58 AM
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typo, or play on words?

Typo (on my phone). Sorry - it has been fixed.

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post #1195 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Randy,

I have all the tracks from the get together. I'd like you to come over and listen to the tracks at my house on the Wharfedales in my untreated room played through my HTPC and Onkyo TX-NR1007 using pure audio mode. Then maybe I can listen to the tracks in your room on your equipment? I know it's not the same - but it might be interesting and fun! Can you come over this weekend?

I will be in Indiana this weekend. Your Wardales retailed for 4500 back in the 90's correct? I do remember you told me you got a screaming deal on them.
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post #1196 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 08:32 AM
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Do you guys actually listen to elavotor music? What is the point of a speaker listening session if you don't use the exact music they will be used for? I have a HT and every speaker or sub system is played at the level I watch movies at to compare, simple as that. I have heard Mcintosh's test room where they have their big line arrays for their front stage with their 8000 watt monoblocks on each one and then they have the same twelves in the speakers that put in the floor(6 of them) for their LFE. It was very impressive to say the least, HOWEVER, my system would give me 95% of that system for music and my system is better for movies. That system was very nice and very cool looking but the price tag was a little high, just $50K per speaker, $15k per amp, but hey someone thinks it is worth it!
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post #1197 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 08:35 AM
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We were kidding MK. The track list was modified the night before the get together (songs were added), but it was posted in this thread roughly two weeks before the event. I'll post it when I get back to my desk.

The music was stuff we normally listen to, and we did listen at loud levels to cover the spectrum; louder than most at the event normally listened it seemed.

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post #1198 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 08:36 AM
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Many people use their speakers to listen to Elevator Music at low volumes. Nothing wrong with that!
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post #1199 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

I said they LOOK similar and they DO! They use the same surround design and even very similar cones and motor designs. I'd say SB Acoustics is similar to some Scanspeak stuff because Ulrik Schmidt and Frank Nielsen of Danesian Audio originate from Scanspeak but I wouldn't say SB Acoustics and Usher Audio are similar buddy. I only mentioned Jeds speakers and Zaphs because it would be nice to have seen some DIY in there for testing as well. Also I mentioned Jeds massives because it's a class of speaker that can compete with Seaton's and JTR and also outside of pro audio there isn't many loudspeakers that can push 110db without strain and fill a large room.

Regarding the Neo8 in the Phil, can you explain to me what the GTG listeners heard and are reporting? I'm also no sure what you mean by "overdrive the midrange". I think I've been most positive regarding the Phils to be honest. I only questioned how low it's crossed and I suggested it might suffer some problems at certain frequencies. This was basically confirmed with what the GTG people reported. You think it would LEND CREDENCE TO ME to have predicted this and for it to be affirmed when they drove them at 100 db. Personally it wouldn't affect my purchasing decision because I prob listen to similar music to the designer and I'd never push them to bloody 94 db plus as I care about my hearing.

As for the personal attacks telling me to calm down, you're hyper... dude...

what ever man

PS I bet one of two things happened to Phil... they either connected the top cab out of phase OR the Neo8s solder pads were OVERHEATED and the thing was damaged. It's so very easy to damage a Neo8 when soldering wire to it's pads! You seriously can't touch the solder iron to those pads for more than two seconds without damaging the transducer. I even warned Denis about this in his thread and was kicked out of that thread but hey I'm just some idiot from the net right... OR it's just a property of the speaker's design. It's not complicated!

Just for the record, the midranges in the Phil 2's were taken out of my own
Phil 3's, which have been running flawlessly for over a year. Those are the only Neo's I could use, becuase everyone is out of stock. I'm also curious as to why you think the Neo's can't be crossed 4th order acoustic at 600 Hz. The manufacturer has no problems with that, and they would already be down by 6 dB at 600 Hz. I'm not arguing--just trying to get more information. Perhaps you can PM me, because I doubt that this is of much interest to anyone else. In any event, if there was a problem with the Phils, I would bet it was in one of the crossovers, not the midrange or connections. I trust Nuance to connect banana plugs correctly.
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post #1200 of 1777 Old 04-17-2012, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

We were kidding MK. The track list was modified the night before the get together (songs were added), but it was posted in this thread roughly two weeks before the event. I'll post it when I get back to my desk.

The music was stuff we normally listen to, and we did listen at loud levels to cover the spectrum; louder than most at the event normally listened it seemed.

Gotcha!
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