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post #1501 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

It's all the same thing... we like what we like and dislike what we dislike.

I will say this though... if something is audibly offensive, it's usually measurable.

I know if I built some ugly speakers, and they got the job done, I wouldn't be offended by someone calling them ugly. I'm sure if Jeff charged more, he could have a more furniture grade finish. It is what it is.

As far as other aspects, if they were heard, then perhaps Jeff can go back to the lab and try to identify them. As mark said, often these are just a db or two in the frequency response, or some ringing in the impulse response, that can be corrected in the crossover.

One of the problems with narrow directivity speakers like the JTR, as was discussed in Floyd Toole's book, is that they lack "masking" effect. For a speaker with wide dispersion like the Songtower, if there is a resonance, it is often masked by reflections in the room.

Whereas if the direct sound dominates, the SAME resonance is simply more audible, and a bit more care must be taken with the crossover. Tricky things like this are what make speaker design interesting.

JTR speakers are available in custom finishes. http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-8ht/ They are available in:
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post #1502 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 04:47 PM
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Sean Olive also noted that most prefer a flat response. If one does not measure how do you know? If you measure and you are not flat you don't EQ to make it flat? All rooms will effect speakers differently so what do you do?
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post #1503 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Sean Olive also noted that most prefer a flat response. If one does not measure how do you know? If you measure and you are not flat you don't EQ to make it flat? All rooms will effect speakers differently so what do you do?

You're right about flat response, but it wasn't only on axis that he tested. To control "the room" you need a controlled environment (no pun intended) or zero reflections...or an elaborate bagillion dollar system like Harman has, speaker shuffler included.

EQ is useful to take the room out if the equation, but why would you want to use it to change the speaker's actual anechoic response? If you don't like the latter it's best not to buy the speaker.

ADTG, once again you're pushing opinions as facts. Prove what you say. Floyd Toole and Sean Olive already proved what I am stating. In fact, I am just repeating their findings.

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post #1504 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post


You're right about flat response, but it wasn't only on axis that he tested. To control "the room" you need a controlled environment (no pun intended) or zero reflections...or an elaborate bagillion dollar system like Harman has, speaker shuffler included.

EQ is useful to take the room out if the equation, but why would you want to use it to change the speaker's actual anechoic response? If you don't like the latter it's best not to buy the speaker.

ADTG, once again you're pushing opinions as facts. Prove what you say. Floyd Toole and Sean Olive already proved what I am stating. In fact, I am just repeating their findings.

I agree with you and no I don't want to change the speakers response at 1 meter but at the LP where it matters. I invested lots of time and money in my room and if my speakers are flat at 1 meter they are pretty flat at the LP. Off axis is not bad either.
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post #1505 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post


I agree with you and no I don't want to change the speakers response at 1 meter but at the LP where it matters. I invested lots of time and money in my room and if my speakers are flat at 1 meter they are pretty flat at the LP. Off axis is not bad either.

Congrats, that's awesome. I assume you EQ'd the room and didn't actually use active crossovers to change the response of the actual speaker? For what its worth, even if you removed the room from the equation and basically achieved a flat FR among a couple speakers there would still be differences for the reasons already stated earlier, but I imagine they'd be more subtle.

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post #1506 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post


Congrats, that's awesome. I assume you EQ'd the room and didn't actually use active crossovers to change the response of the actual speaker?

No DSP, just EQ to make my speakers flat at 1 meter. No need at the LP to touch anything. My speakers are different then normal commercial offerings.
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post #1507 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 05:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Randy agrees with you Brandon on the blind testing and he forwarded the material to me. I will read it. He also said he has decided he wants no part in the endeavor

Smart man.
Anyone remember the Monster wire blind test on that megabuck system?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

So for the record, HuskerOmaha, Archaea, & AcuDefTechGuy agree that we would not be able to tell much difference (significantly) if the speakers were all played within their means.

Anyone else agree with this statement?

Not without caveats. Such as the ability (trained or otherwise) of the listeners to discern the differences that clearly would be there. The designs were significantly different enough (just from a polar response perspective for example) where one should expect differences to be heard in an average room. Which would be preferred is a whole other matter.
You would also have to define "within their means", as some sort of averaged amplitude to be predetermined.
That and a load invariant amplifier used.

cheers,

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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

No DSP, just EQ to make my speakers flat at 1 meter.

"Flat" at the microphone tip. No where else. A speakers radiation is 3 dimensional, not single axis/point. Global correction is only possible with a point source..and even then, judiciously.

cheers,

AJ
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post #1509 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 05:41 PM
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Well I measured where my head will be at 7 different seats to see what happens. Moving my mic 1-4 feet in any direction has minimal effect as frequency is concerned. The Midbass changes the most but still pretty good.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

"Flat" at the microphone tip. No where else. A speakers radiation is 3 dimensional, not single axis/point. Global correction is only possible with a point source..and even then, judiciously.

cheers,

AJ


very very good point...

And I know of one ID outfit (Canuck) who's speakers measure fantastic within about a cubic decimeter of space 1 meter back and placed right in the vert sweet spot. Any measurements taken at any other location reveal the speaker is a TOTAL PILE OF DOG ____ as does a simple knuckle wrap to the cab.
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post #1511 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 06:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well I measured where my head will be at 7 different seats to see what happens. Moving my mic 1-4 feet in any direction has minimal effect as frequency is concerned. The Midbass changes the most but still pretty good.

I understand what you did. You moved the microphone tip. It is not the same as your binaural hearing system, HRTF, perceptual processing in a complex soundfield, etc.
However, as long as you're happy....

cheers,

AJ
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post #1512 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 06:43 PM
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AJ, thanks for your contribution in this thread. I'd really love to hear a pair of your speakers. Will you be at RMAF this year? I'm planning on attending.

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
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No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

AJ, thanks for your contribution in this thread. I'd really love to hear a pair of your speakers. Will you be at RMAF this year? I'm planning on attending.

Doubtful. Never say never of course.
You seem to be going everywhere I'm not.....
LSAF, because it's basically free other than the hotel room, sort of the Woodstock of audio "shows", less pomp, more romp. Plus my brother lives outside Houston, so it's an excuse to visit.
CapFest, because of all the shows, I enjoyed it the most (met JSalk & DM there too). Mid-sized (plenty to see for the attendees), you could actually chat with folks for a while, because they had time enough to see just about everything.
RMAF had about 1000 rooms...and the elevators stopped working in a multi-story hotel(!!!)
'Twas bit more of a fiasco, at least from my perspective (didn't help that FedEx lost my originally shipped speakers). Put on your running shoes...spend no more than 5 seconds max per room (speed-listen, you can do it)....and don't expect to see half of them.
Other than that, you should be fine.

cheers,

AJ

p.s. I had beer left over on Saturday(RMAF)
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Oh I do --- except I think the other speakers were pushed outside their means a little bit in that room on the dynamic peaks - which I said multiple times in my reviews - hence the distortion I heard sitting closer to the speaker. At least that's my understanding?!?!? - so if we dropped the volume say -6dB or so to the point where no speaker was overplaying it's ability and we had a HPF engaged at 80hz (cutting off all frequencies below 80hz) it would be more difficult to distinguish perhaps???

I'll respond to the bold part. Did you miss the discussion where the left monoblock amplifier was found to be the cause of the distortion in the SS 10's? If you think about it, it makes sense. The highest sensitivity speakers didn't exhibit it. Moving down the line into lowest sensitivity speaker and lowest impedance, the distortion was easily heard. The SoundScape 10, being 84dB sensitive, 4 ohms and having the most expensive and resolving midrange drivers, was the one to offend the worst, misleading us into assuming it was a damaged driver. After careful driver inspection and testing at levels louder than we listened (with a more powerful amp), Jim found zero damage and could not duplicate the problem. Around the same time of Jim's discovery Terry stated his left monoblock had a bad transistor, and a call to the manufacturer Tuesday night confirmed it likely caused the issues we heard. That's not to say we didn't listen too loud and that some of the smaller speakers were struggling a bit being run full range at those levels in that sized room, but you get the idea. Peaks were at 95dB, but only the bass; other frequencies averaged low to mid 80's, with a couple songs having vocal or instrument peaks that hit the low 90's (this according to Terry's testing earlier this week). I have to wonder if any of those speakers would have been fine for the most part if the amp wasn't suffering from that damaged transistor. Even better, if they were crossed to a subwoofer or two I'd bet they would have been perfect.

With that said, I would have calibrated to 75dB if I could do it over. 95dB was too loud, even if it was just peaks.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Doubtful. Never say never of course.
You seem to be going everywhere I'm not.....
LSAF, because it's basically free other than the hotel room, sort of the Woodstock of audio "shows", less pomp, more romp. Plus my brother lives outside Houston, so it's an excuse to visit.
CapFest, because of all the shows, I enjoyed it the most (met JSalk & DM there too). Mid-sized (plenty to see for the attendees), you could actually chat with folks for a while, because they had time enough to see just about everything.
RMAF had about 1000 rooms...and the elevators stopped working in a multi-story hotel(!!!)
'Twas bit more of a fiasco, at least from my perspective (didn't help that FedEx lost my originally shipped speakers). Put on your running shoes...spend no more than 5 seconds max per room (speed-listen, you can do it)....and don't expect to see half of them.
Other than that, you should be fine.

cheers,

AJ

p.s. I had beer left over on Saturday(RMAF)

Bummer man. So do you partake in any of those equipment tours? If so, where do I sign up?

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No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
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Attached is a document in which Sean Olive tested four speakers, the ability for their listeners to hear the differences (specifically frequency response on and off-axis), and how the measurements of the speakers correlated to listening. This is one of the ones I was talking about, Jonathan. I also have all these too, and then even more, if you're interested in any of them:

 

Olive_2003.pdf 270.64453125k . file

My journey to find the "perfect" speaker
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No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

"Flat" at the microphone tip. No where else. A speakers radiation is 3 dimensional, not single axis/point. Global correction is only possible with a point source..and even then, judiciously.

cheers,

AJ

This 2 channel minimalist is going to be playing around with Trinnov this weekend.

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post #1518 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

AJ, thanks for your contribution in this thread. I'd really love to hear a pair of your speakers. Will you be at RMAF this year? I'm planning on attending.

I am planning on attending, also. Maybe I'll run into you and AJ.

Quote:
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p.s. I had beer left over on Saturday(RMAF)

I could help prevent this tragedy at RMAF 2012.

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post #1519 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 07:41 PM
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I am planning on attending, also. Maybe I'll run into you and AJ.

I certainly hope so. Let's exchange info before the event so we can meet up.

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No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
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Sounds like a road trip to me! Somehow, I bet it will be when we are taking our kids to Disney..........
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post


I understand what you did. You moved the microphone tip. It is not the same as your binaural hearing system, HRTF, perceptual processing in a complex soundfield, etc.
However, as long as you're happy....

cheers,

AJ

What do you mean I moved the tip? I moved the microphone all over the place. I went from 4 different locations from 15 feet wide and 4 locations 21 feet in depth. At the primary LP I moved it to the left of my head, to the right, above and below to see the different responses.
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Randy agrees with you Brandon on the blind testing and he forwarded the material to me. I will read it. He also said he has decided he wants no part in the endeavor - as critics come out of the woodwork no matter what you do.

Buddy you would be fine doing such an endeavour and inviting a few people over for it---just make sure you don't put it on these forums . Would probably be fun and informative for all involved.
Greg
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Buddy you would be fine doing such an endeavour and inviting a few people over for it---just make sure you don't put it on these forums . Would probably be fun and informative for all involved.
Greg

+1 Don't bother posting it; just look what the whiners did to this thread about our GTG. The thread hasn't even been on topic all day...

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No matter what measurements tell us, a loudspeaker isn’t good until it
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post #1524 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I understand what you did. You moved the microphone tip. It is not the same as your binaural hearing system, HRTF, perceptual processing in a complex soundfield, etc.
However, as long as you're happy....

cheers,

AJ

Aj, I would really like to hear your speakers and I know you think I am a little nuts with 8000 speakers but that is not quite true. It is more like a lot of speakers over 50 years starting at about well 15 years old (me talking to my dad about good sound).
Again, I would really like to hear yours, but I probably will not be able to get to the GT. I also attend some live concerts to kind of keep up and those dates interfere with that.
By the way, if I was going to buy new speakers they would be Soudscape 8's or Marks Catalyst (not the 12's-too big for the room). I can't tell you how much I loved the SC10's. If there was something wrong, I ddin't hear it.
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

just look what the whiners did to this thread about our GTG.

You know this was inevitable, but I appreciate all the effort it took to pull this off.

With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
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post #1526 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I'll respond to the bold part. Did you miss the discussion where the left monoblock amplifier was found to be the cause of the distortion? If you think about it, it makes sense. The highest sensitivity speakers didn't exhibit it, or if it did it was minimal. Moving down the line into lower sensitivity speakers and lower impedances, the more prominent the distortion became. The SoundScape 10, being 84dB sensitive, 4 ohms and having the most expensive and resolving midrange drivers, was the one to offend the worst, misleading us into assuming it was a damaged driver. After careful driver inspection and testing at levels louder than we listened (with a more powerful amp), Jim found zero damage and could not duplicate the problem. Around the same time of Jim's discovery Terry stated his left monoblock had a bad transistor, and a call to the manufacturer Tuesday night confirmed it likely caused the issues we heard. That's not to say we didn't listen too loud and that some of the smaller speakers were struggling a bit being run full range at those levels in that sized room, but you get the idea. Peaks were at 95dB, but only the bass; other frequencies averaged low to mid 80's, with a couple songs having vocal or instrument peaks that hit the low 90's (this according to Terry's testing earlier this week). I'd be confident any of those speakers would have been fine for the most part if the amp wasn't suffering from that damaged transistor. Even better, if they were crossed to a subwoofer or two I'd bet they would have been perfect.

With that said, I would have calibrated to 75dB if I could do it over. 95dB was too loud, even if it was just peaks.

yes I read those things
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1273
and this
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1286
and this
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1235


So for the soundscape 10's with 84dB sensitivity -- why wasn't the amp enough to hit 90-92dB peaks with a 96dB peak as a high in Terry's retest? I'm not saying it was sufficient - there was obviously something wrong!!! The numbers seem off to me though?!?!

84 dB 1 watt sensitivity
87 dB 2 watt
90 dB 4 watt
93 dB 8 watt
96 dB 16 watt
99 dB 32 watt
102 dB 64 watt
105 dB 128 watt
108 dB 256 watt (~ somewhere we get to amp limits)

then add distance calculation in there for Terry's room (which I have no idea how to figure indoors in his room)

Terry said he believed from retesting we were hitting 92dB bass peaks in most of the the bass portions with one peak at 96dB

I have a couple things I can't figure out with this info. Perhaps these concerns have answers???

1) Friday night we listened to Terry's speakers with some home theater demo material louder than anything we listened to on saturday during the actual demos and I noticed no distortion on Terry's speakers. True --- the speakers were using the fmod inline resistor to roll off frequencies at a rate of -12dB per octave from 70hz so this may be just the fact his speakers weren't having to recreate any bass ----- BUT then he also demoed the speakers for me without subs and I thought they were exceptionally clear on the black eyed peas track on friday night. On Saturday's meet from my listening position I could hear they were distorting a bit during the same song. On friday night I thought they seemed to be playing louder without distortion, and my videos I took seem to show the drivers moving more on Friday night than my video of them on saturday????? I don't know what to make of this at all. Terry said the left amp measured 1.5 dB less than the right amp. 1.5 dB alone sure doesn't explain what I heard if that's the only difference in left and right channels. Is there more problem than a 1.5dB deficancy?

2) Ignoring the Black Eyed Peas track - The 'distortion' I heard seemed to be mostly in the highs and midrange rather than the bass in on occassions in the orchestra and chorus music on every speaker I encountered -- which is a weird place for distortion to occur (rather than distortion in the bass sound)!?!?! I felt the mids and highs seemed to become less clear, blurred, distorted as the bass swelled in these dynamic peaks. The distortion sound was similar on these first speakers. On the Black eyed peas track it was definately the woofers distorting. By contrast, -the distortion sound on the Salk 10 was more of a warble which seemed to occur lower than the mids and highs. Whereas the other speakers just sounded a bit overrun by the material - the Salk 10's sounded like something was defective - which is why I got anxious and started talking to you guys by track 3. Amp or not - no matter what the cause of the distortion on the Salk 10 - the distortion sound was different in my mind during this demo.

Terry's comments linked above (as I read them) seem somewhat skeptical of an amp issue as it relates to the speakers outside of the Salk 10s. - based on ownership of these amps and post meet checkups. Given the decent wattage those amps provide and the levels we listened to and the guess that many of you run these speakers on less amp than Terry I'm sure - have you guys tested your speakers full range to see how they sound on your home gear? The fact that most people seem to have not heard the distortion on the Salk 10 completely baffles me. It was an irritating warble that I heard early on on the very first clip. Read my notes on that speaker written at the time of audition.
http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/...dScape10-1.jpg
It was very present and a different sound than the previous 'distortions' I had heard. I can't hardly figure how it wasn't noticed by everyone --- unless they were just sitting exclusively in front of the right speaker...

I really don't know what to make of it all, but I have a hard time blaming the amp on everything...Has Terry posted any more findings on the amp since the posts I quoted above?

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post #1527 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 08:56 PM
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My word, expectation bias is everyone else but me. Guys, if you want to do a blind tests, I might do it but back off on your opinions saying everyone else is bias but me. I know I have bias, and I might do a blind tests but Jonathan it will include Nuance AND you so be careful what you wish for as ego can take a crash. Jonathan can tell you about what I do not TAKE on faith (I have no faith) but love science, but it has to be done right and it is DAMN hard and somtimes expensive (that is why we are losing it in the USA....uh oh political). I might also get some people who are friends to help me from the Detroit contingent. These things are really hard though.

I am not sure Sean will even respond anymore since he gave me his time and I gave up on doing it, but this thread makes me want to do it because I see well so much "competition". This will be so much work if you really want to do it. Do you? It has to be in my opinion not blind but double blind.

Here is the hard thing, give me the parameters and the room (remember if Dennis Erksine is right 80% is the room in which case we are "pissing in the wind").

P.S. Not making judgements but Johathan you do realize you are saying placebo is inherent in the subjective assessments (which I agree with you) and then you are trying to make "scientific" assessments of why you are right. I can say somewhat the same thing about Nuance except he has said he can identify in a blind test some thing which you say he can't. That should be testable. I had not wanted to get involved in this and I still may back off but there are so many "assertions" and I am all about science and not about failth.
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post #1528 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 09:07 PM
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Randy - if that's directed at me - I fully admitted in my first post I have bias...as I think eveyone does. I didn't have any speakers to root for in this meet - I own none of the speakers but I do have an enjoy a pair of JTR Captivator subs. I rated how I honestly thought. If JTR placed last in my mind I would have probably shared it anyway. I didn't think they placed last - I thought they placed a solid third and I'd be pleased as peach to own a pair (ha - or for that matter any of the speakers in this meet!!! as they would likely all be varying degrees of incremental improvment over my own speakers)! As to my bias ??!?? My room is all hard surfaces, no treatment, and has a ceramic tile floor - I get a lot of reflection in my room and some additional treble compared to a treated room. That might be why a slight bias towards high frequencies that others mentioned didn't offend me for instance...My bias also is responsible for telling me when I got home that my Wharfedale speakers are plenty to keep me happy when I played the same demo material through them. Perhaps if I lined the Wharfedales up against these other speakers in a blind test I would place my wharfedales last or perhaps others collectively would...:P at any rate, I'm game, I don't know what I really have to lose?! I hope you do host a speaker meet!!!!!!!!!!! I'd be happy to participate in the blind test - but do keep in mind I'm of the mindset that I don't think I could probably tell much difference if the speakers weren't distorting (were played within means) and were played with a crossover to eliminate bass bias as we talked about on the way home!

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post #1529 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Attached is a document in which Sean Olive tested four speakers, the ability for their listeners to hear the differences (specifically frequency response on and off-axis), and how the measurements of the speakers correlated to listening. This is one of the ones I was talking about, Jonathan. I also have all these too, and then even more, if you're interested in any of them:

Thanks - grabbed it and will read it.

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post #1530 of 1777 Old 04-19-2012, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Randy - if that's directed at me - I fully admitted in my first post I have bias...as I think eveyone does. I didn't have any speakers to root for in this meet - I own none of the speakers but I do have an enjoy a pair of JTR Captivator subs. I rated how I honestly thought. If JTR placed last in my mind I would have probably shared it anyway. I didn't think they placed last - I thought they placed a solid third and I'd be pleased as peach to own a pair (ha - or for that matter any of the speakers in this meet!!! as they would likely all be varying degrees of incremental improvment over my own speakers)! As to my bias ??!?? My room is all hard surfaces, no treatment, and has a ceramic tile floor - I get a lot of reflection in my room and some additional treble compared to a treated room. That might be why a slight bias towards high frequencies that others mentioned didn't offend me for instance...My bias also is responsible for telling me when I got home that my Wharfedale speakers are plenty to keep me happy when I played the same demo material through them. Perhaps if I lined the Wharfedales up against these other speakers in a blind test I would place my wharfedales last! :P I'm game and hope you do host a speaker meet!!!!!!!!!!! I'd be happy to participate in the blind test - but do keep in mind I'm of the mindset that I don't think I could probably tell much difference if the speakers weren't distorting (were played within means) and were played with a crossover to eliminate bass bias as we talked about on the way home!

[I[/i]It is aimed at both of you (Nuance and you) and everyone else that is so damn confident! You do realize that not only you but eveyone else is defending THEIR picks right? It gets old because alot of this has been done before and is not new at all.

That said, you can't sit on the floor and judge a speaker with a leaf tweeter that has limited vertical dispersion. That is basic stuff. You can't say well it sounded the same. I am not trying to dismiss what you have done and I am fine with opinions but they will be challenged. I happend to agree with you that in a sweet spot with limited bandwith speakers will sound the same but where did you get that?
All of it makes me want to just go to my home theater and not post. I don't need!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can enjoy my system ALL BY MYSELF with no reinforcement. In fact, I am ok with that.

I like/love this hobby but it ends up science. Do we need to really to go over the same territory that Floyd, Sean, Keele, Linkwitz have done before? Sure we can have fun with GT but I know where Mark, Dennis, DavidF, and others stand on the issues and how they design. After that it is just marketing, and don't make a mistake there is marketing.

In the end I love science, but not !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! exclamation marks. Too old for that.
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