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post #1741 of 1777 Old 05-09-2012, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Ya know, its funny - Nuance and I were talking about the very same thing on the SS8's with open back.... Floor standing M7's

We are both mixers of Stereo and HT, so external subs are a must for us, which is easier to taylor bass response if you have a hazardous room - A nice SS tower with 2-3 x 8" drivers, open back and no PR would be awesome in my book...

I think this is something that has potential for those that aren't 2 channel only...

I began my search for speakers about 6 weeks ago... So far I've spent almost all that time researching. Researching technology behind speakers, researching the current trends in the marketplace, the differences between 2-way, 3-way, line arrays, etc.

This thing that you're talking about - a SoundScape floorstanding monitor - it's something that I am pretty certain I will be talking to Jim Salk about. If it existed already, it would be at the very very top of my want list right now.
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post #1742 of 1777 Old 05-09-2012, 07:41 PM
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My only doubts about something like this is that I believe the crossover to a dedicated sub would be much more seamless from a floorstanding speaker that is already very good in that range.... And, finding subs that are as musical as the bottom end of the SoundScapes might be difficult.

I have barely begun to look into subs yet.
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post #1743 of 1777 Old 05-10-2012, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by nemir View Post

I have barely begun to look into subs yet.

Look no further than Rythmik. We have been building these for quite a while now and they are extremely musical, very low distortion and would mate extremely well with a SoundScape speaker.

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post #1744 of 1777 Old 05-10-2012, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemir View Post

My only doubts about something like this is that I believe the crossover to a dedicated sub would be much more seamless from a floorstanding speaker that is already very good in that range.... And, finding subs that are as musical as the bottom end of the SoundScapes might be difficult.

I have barely begun to look into subs yet.

I beg to differ - my setup shown above with the M7's and my 18" LMS sub was easy to setup, and is in fact seemlessly blended with my mains... Plus with subs you get the benefits of choosing the best placement in room for bass, rather then being limited to the placement of your full standing speakers. Obviously this is all room dependent...... When you have a CR@PPY room for bass, you will find that people who have integrated external subs got much better low end response...

Experimenting with different xovers was a must for me in that room with only a single sub, duals would have been better, but there is no room for that adventure in my rig / room... EQ sub in room separately and I then let XT32 on the 80.3 do its thing.... then experiment with xover...

The LMS drivers are fantastic for clean upper bass - measuring almost flat all the way up to 500hz, which makes them incredibly flexible when searching for xovers...

As Jim stated the Rythmiks are an excellent choice, awesome SQ and accuracy.... in our subwoofer gtg's they were amongst those at the top of the list for accuracy.


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post #1745 of 1777 Old 05-11-2012, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

I beg to differ - my setup shown above with the M7's and my 18" LMS sub was easy to setup, and is in fact seemlessly blended with my mains... Plus with subs you get the benefits of choosing the best placement in room for bass, rather then being limited to the placement of your full standing speakers. Obviously this is all room dependent...... When you have a CR@PPY room for bass, you will find that people who have integrated external subs got much better low end response...

Experimenting with different xovers was a must for me in that room with only a single sub, duals would have been better, but there is no room for that adventure in my rig / room... EQ sub in room separately and I then let XT32 on the 80.3 do its thing.... then experiment with xover...

The LMS drivers are fantastic for clean upper bass - measuring almost flat all the way up to 500hz, which makes them incredibly flexible when searching for xovers...

As Jim stated the Rythmiks are an excellent choice, awesome SQ and accuracy.... in our subwoofer gtg's they were amongst those at the top of the list for accuracy.

So.... what does a complete noob do to find out about crossovers, and how to make them so they can blend separate ryhtmiks or LMSes with SS M7 monitors for a seamless musical sound?
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post #1746 of 1777 Old 05-12-2012, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by nemir View Post

So.... what does a complete noob do to find out about crossovers, and how to make them so they can blend separate ryhtmiks or LMSes with SS M7 monitors for a seamless musical sound?


Not too difficult, but can be time consuming.... Once you get it, you never really need to mess with it again unless you make changes to your system. The crossovers are built into the Pre-amp or Receiver, you just select one onscreen with your remote. Measuring your system and changing the xover point on the Pre-amp or receiver... experimenting with different settings where the speakers crossover to the sub - generally -60hz, 70, 80, 90, 100, 120hz...?!!? Think of it as a handoff - your choosing how high the freq you want your subs to play, and how low your speakers will play. What ever sounds best and has no major dips or "suckouts" which can be caused by room cancellation, placement, or even phase on each sub in relation to your mains. You would try different settings and then measure again to see if one is better then the other and how it sounds to you.

Here is a picture of how it would look on a graph with 120 hz crossover
You can clearly see where the speakers measured response play down to in the blue line, and how high the sub plays in the red line. Both them come together at around 120hz, and the valley in the middle gets sound reinforcement from the room and fills in naturally... (wording ?!?!?)


Xover at 100hz


Xover at 80hz


A measuring system such as a Mic, preamp and REW (free software) running on a laptop, will help you take these measurements... Easier to use products are Omnimic, or XTZ but are more expensive.

Some rooms have natural cancellation at certain frequencies and you want to avoid setting your xover at those freq's resulting in a MAJOR dip in measured response, that no eq boost will correct, also - you never want to boost a dip, you only want to cut peaks to get close to the smoothest response..... My room has a problem at 80 hz so I use 100hz crossover point with the Salks.

Once you have determined the best placement for subs with the least amount of cancellation, you have the phase of the subs set properly, then EQ the sub for the smoothest possible response... Your looking for a measurement sweep to look like this after EQing the subs and choosing the best xover to your mains, honestly its pretty rare to ever see perfect measurements in room.
Looking for something that looks like this in your final sweeps - perfect flat response handoff from subs to main speakers.





I have a separate EQ for my sub, then after EQing I run Audyssey XT32, which refines the EQ process a but further, but it shouldn't have to do much at all since I already EQ'd the sub prior. Some people don't like Audyssey or the idea of EQing speakers above the Schroeder Freq, but XT32's fuzzy logic does a good job of avoiding/minimizing those potential pitfalls....
BTW the Integra 80.3 can eq two subs separately all on its own and does a fantastic job doing so. Allowing you to sit back and do none of this business and just adjust xover. I HIGHLY recommend this product.

After a good amount of time with measuring systems and seeing graphs - many people can identify roughly the freq by ear if something is not right with the sound....

I hope this made some sense....

Bass EQing and in room response is a HUGE subject and this is just scratching the surface of it, searching through the subwoofer area would be wise to learn more, far more articulate guys have expounded on this subject that can help you further...


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post #1747 of 1777 Old 09-04-2012, 07:21 AM
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Actually it was Gregg Allman that was married to Cher. He must have been on heavy drugs to marry that drag queen. Oh and I think Merry still looks like a serial killer:D
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post #1748 of 1777 Old 09-04-2012, 09:09 AM
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You can clearly see where the speakers measured response play down to in the blue line, and how high the sub plays in the red line. Both them come together at around 120hz, and the valley in the middle gets sound reinforcement from the room and fills in naturally... (wording ?!?!?)

just a correction.. there is no "valley" in the middle. The red line and blue line should combine to give the overall response. So in that crossover region both drivers are contributing to a flat net response, barring room effecs.
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post #1749 of 1777 Old 02-01-2013, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

just a correction.. there is no "valley" in the middle. The red line and blue line should combine to give the overall response. So in that crossover region both drivers are contributing to a flat net response, barring room effecs.

Yep, mathematically if both speakers are down 3dB (=1/2 power) at the crossover frequency, the total response or "sum" is back up to full power (=1/2+1/2 ="flat") .
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post #1750 of 1777 Old 02-12-2013, 11:19 AM
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Been entirely too long since I have checked in here - any of the WI guys still running around here?


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post #1751 of 1777 Old 02-12-2013, 11:50 AM
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Yes sir. We were actually kicking around the idea of hosting another event. smile.gif


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post #1752 of 1777 Old 02-12-2013, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Bringing this thread back from the dead:)

A local gtg in the next month or so is cool with me! I know Brandon (nuance) and I were contemplating something soon. Maybe the new Parasound P5 preamp will be out soon and we can throw that into the mix?
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post #1753 of 1777 Old 02-12-2013, 12:04 PM
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So great to hear from you both! I am finally winding down on the HT room (after 1.5 years!) and would really like to reconnect with you all - missed getting together with people who can listen to me go on and on. smile.gif

Either of you have plans to go to AXPONA?


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post #1754 of 1777 Old 02-12-2013, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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So great to hear from you both! I am finally winding down on the HT room (after 1.5 years!) and would really like to reconnect with you all - missed getting together with people who can listen to me go on and on. smile.gif

Either of you have plans to go to AXPONA?
It would be nice to meet up with everyone again! Glad to hear your HT room is coming together.

In heading down to that event with my father in law that Friday.
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post #1755 of 1777 Old 02-12-2013, 01:46 PM
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Either of you have plans to go to AXPONA?

Depending on my Wife's work schedule (and then being able to find a sitter) I plan to attend Saturday. Brandon, will you only be there Friday?


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post #1756 of 1777 Old 02-12-2013, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Depending on my Wife's work schedule (and then being able to find a sitter) I plan to attend Saturday. Brandon, will you only be there Friday?
Friday only. It was a good reason to take off work;). Bummer you are going Saturday.
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post #1757 of 1777 Old 02-12-2013, 04:45 PM
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I currently have plans to go down Saturday morning and I am staying overnight to go on Sunday too. I contacted Jim to see what he was planning to bring - he said he was thinking SS8's! Yay!!


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post #1758 of 1777 Old 02-13-2013, 07:42 AM
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I currently have plans to go down Saturday morning and I am staying overnight to go on Sunday too. I contacted Jim to see what he was planning to bring - he said he was thinking SS8's! Yay!!

Ha, have you prepared the missus for a big hole in your checking account?! biggrin.gif You know you won't be able to resist.

Good times to you all.

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post #1759 of 1777 Old 02-13-2013, 08:33 AM
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Ha, have you prepared the missus for a big hole in your checking account?! biggrin.gif You know you won't be able to resist.

Good times to you all.

Mud

Don't I know it - fortunately, I already told her I want these and started my "savings plan!" biggrin.gif

If you decide to go down Nuance, let me know and we can plan on meeting up.


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post #1760 of 1777 Old 02-13-2013, 10:48 AM
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Either of you have plans to go to AXPONA?

Depending on my Wife's work schedule (and then being able to find a sitter) I plan to attend Saturday. Brandon, will you only be there Friday?

Hi guys,

When you swing down to check out Jim's latest works of art, be sure to stop in and say high one floor up as I'll be set up in room 938. Hope to see a few familiar faces.

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post #1761 of 1777 Old 02-13-2013, 11:06 AM
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Hi guys,

When you swing down to check out Jim's latest works of art, be sure to stop in and say high one floor up as I'll be set up in room 938. Hope to see a few familiar faces.

Absolutely. It'll be great to see you again, Mark!


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post #1762 of 1777 Old 02-13-2013, 11:06 AM
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Hi guys,

When you swing down to check out Jim's latest works of art, be sure to stop in and say high one floor up as I'll be set up in room 938. Hope to see a few familiar faces.

Oh, nice Mark! I did not see that you were on the vendor list - must have missed it. Will definitely be stopping by.....


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post #1763 of 1777 Old 02-13-2013, 11:28 AM
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Glad to see action in this thread again. I had been following it last year, even after I had to pull out of the get together due to a trip to Arizona. Hopefully something will materialize again this year and I would sure like to join you. If there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.
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post #1764 of 1777 Old 02-13-2013, 02:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

When you swing down to check out Jim's latest works of art, be sure to stop in and say high one floor up as I'll be set up in room 938. Hope to see a few familiar faces.

Sounds good Mark, I will pop in to say hi and check out your gear again.
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post #1765 of 1777 Old 02-14-2013, 05:43 AM
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Don't I know it - fortunately, I already told her I want these and started my "savings plan!" biggrin.gif

If you decide to go down Nuance, let me know and we can plan on meeting up.

Haha, nice. I will let you know if I can make it, and if so maybe we can carpool or something (meet at a park 'n ride).


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post #1766 of 1777 Old 02-14-2013, 06:02 AM
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Haha, nice. I will let you know if I can make it, and if so maybe we can carpool or something (meet at a park 'n ride).

Just so you know, I am staying overnight and making it a 2 day event.


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post #1767 of 1777 Old 02-14-2013, 09:02 AM
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Just so you know, I am staying overnight and making it a 2 day event.

Gotcha. We'll just meet up then.


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post #1768 of 1777 Old 02-14-2013, 09:56 AM
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Gotcha. We'll just meet up then.

Sounds good!


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post #1769 of 1777 Old 02-15-2013, 08:09 PM
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Sounds good Mark, I will pop in to say hi and check out your gear again.

Brandon,

I just worked it out that I will be going down for all three days - so I will be there all day Friday as well. Would be great to meet up with you guys too!


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post #1770 of 1777 Old 02-16-2013, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Brandon,

I just worked it out that I will be going down for all three days - so I will be there all day Friday as well. Would be great to meet up with you guys too!

Cool! Shoot me a PM with your contact info and we can meet up at the event Friday then.
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