Any thoughts on axiom audio speakers? - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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Old 06-11-2011, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

if something exists, then of course there's evidence of its existence.

And somehow, I think sound waves not only exist, but are pretty well understood.

Now our perception of those sound waves is difficult to correlate to their form.

But a difference between two sounds should show up in the difference between the sound waves.

I am in agreement with you.

I would also like to add, in regards to perception of soundwaves, not only is it difficult to correlate, much is still not understood. Things like the weather, mood, health, etc. have all shown to affect one's perception of sound.

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Old 06-11-2011, 09:14 AM
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If we all just heard what there was to hear, there wouldn't be people making a living selling fancy cables and surf ninja mods. Once the brain gets involved, then marketing comes into play. Once the brain gets involved, we get beliefs.

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Old 06-11-2011, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post

I've been enjoying the informative aspects of this thread quite a bit. I appreciate the contributions from everyone.

I am an engineer but don't know diddly about speaker design (I'm a video guy). I respect that there are certainly times when I can measure something and not see it, or, see something not not measure it. It happens all the time. The latter case (seeing an anomaly but not identifying it during measurement) is always what concerns me the most. It usually means that I'm not measuring the right thing and can often contrive a measurement that will catch the cause of what I'm seeing. Once you get to that point, you can start evaluating component changes that directly effect what you are observing.

For speaker measurements, the amplitude vs frequency seems like a necessary, but crude measurement. A lot of stuff happens in the time domain.

Danny mentioned impulse response. If the results were viewed or analyzed in the time domain, shouldn't things like inductor hysteresis become apparent? Wouldn't that be measurable as distortion?

I guess I'm curious about what other measurements are typically done for loudspeakers other than amplitude vs frequency. Are there other measurements that could (and should) be used?

Cary

Inductor distortion is measurable in the sound waves... that is why I'm a proponent of air core inductors myself.

I'm not, however, a proponent of "boutique" crossover parts. I like to think of a core inductor as something like 24awg wire.

I'm not saying anyone needs 10awg Kimber speaker hose but most of do like to run at least 16awg Home Depot wire for a high powered loudspeaker.
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Old 06-11-2011, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cschang View Post

That isn't the issue here.

If you hear an anomaly or difference, should or should it not be measurable?

Well you gotta put things into context. On an intellectual level, I would agree with you entirely.

Now, come back to *us*, the home hobbyist/diy'er. HONESTLY, how many of us are competent enough to hear 'something', and then know instinctively or thru our 'vast' experience where to go and which measurement to look at or for?

I'll be honest and say not me. So what, then, is left for me to do? All I can do is take a series of measurements, (often) go for what has seemed to work for me in the past, and then listen.

The listen part, from a few very arrogant people here, is sneered at. Look at the quote I took my snippet from. Dannie was being hounded for daring to listen. (or not meet the hounders particular definition of listen, which they themselves admit they do not need to do, because they have the meaurements. THAT was the point.)

Instead, we get all the armchair experts quoting this or that (often poorly or partially misunderstood) reference. That begs the next question...WHY did that particular reference become gospel to that person?

The answer is often mundane and oh so human. Because it backs up the already held position.

So, now that you responded to it, can I ask you if you personally listen to the system to see if it meets your needs and wants in audio??? Or do you simply run a series of measurements, and dust your hands as the job is now done???
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Old 06-12-2011, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by terry j View Post

So, now that you responded to it, can I ask you if you personally listen to the system to see if it meets your needs and wants in audio??? Or do you simply run a series of measurements, and dust your hands as the job is now done???

In the end...I listen. In this context though, I think we are talking about the designer/engineer of the speaker.

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Old 06-12-2011, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by terry j View Post

The listen part, from a few very arrogant people here, is sneered at. Look at the quote I took my snippet from. Dannie was being hounded for daring to listen. (or not meet the hounders particular definition of listen, which they themselves admit they do not need to do, because they have the meaurements. THAT was the point.)

Danny was being hounded for listening with his eyes

Quote:


So, now that you responded to it, can I ask you if you personally listen to the system to see if it meets your needs and wants in audio??? Or do you simply run a series of measurements, and dust your hands as the job is now done???

You listen to confirm that everything sounds right and verify that the measurements provide quality results. If not, something is definitely wrong and should be evidenced in the measurements and you probably need to start from scratch.

You do not listen to isolate problems and then tinker to fix them based on what you think is maybe wrong. Such an approach can be especially problematic when the fundamental basis of your design is what was wrong. For example, the typical 6.5" or 8" woofer mated to a 1" flush mount tweeter LR4. If you need to tinker and tinker and tinker to fix the sound of such a speaker, especially a commercial speaker (acceptable for DIYers who don't have the finances to experiment) then something's definitely wrong with your approach.
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Old 06-13-2011, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Danny was being hounded for listening with his eyes



You listen to confirm that everything sounds right and verify that the measurements provide quality results. If not, something is definitely wrong and should be evidenced in the measurements and you probably need to start from scratch.

You do not listen to isolate problems and then tinker to fix them based on what you think is maybe wrong. Such an approach can be especially problematic when the fundamental basis of your design is what was wrong. For example, the typical 6.5" or 8" woofer mated to a 1" flush mount tweeter LR4. If you need to tinker and tinker and tinker to fix the sound of such a speaker, especially a commercial speaker (acceptable for DIYers who don't have the finances to experiment) then something's definitely wrong with your approach.

I got that, what you may not have gotten is the hounder in this case, we all know who that is, does NOT listen to his speakers to to confirm that everything sounds right and verify that the measurements provide quality results.

According to the hounder, it is sufficient to see some appropriate squiggles on a graph. THAT is the point (and only point) I am making.

So, to the hounder, ANY listening is inappropriate or not needed, as 'the measurements tell all'. Hey, I'll be gracious and admit that could very well be true for him, but it is only the egocentric amongst us who thinks that he is the centre of the world and so what works for him should work for everyone else.

The psychs have names for it ya know.
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Old 06-13-2011, 09:23 AM
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Danny was being hounded for listening with his eyes

I don't listen with my eyes.

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Old 06-13-2011, 11:15 AM
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Danny,

Simple question...is there sound improvement that you cannot measure? If yes, can you give an example? Just trying to get a better understanding of your stance.

Thanks

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:07 PM
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All;

We just published a detailed interview about Loudspeaker Design with Atlantic Technology that gives some great info on many of the topics discussed here.

I have more interviews scheduled and hope to publish them prior to our formal article scheduled to come out.

Interview with Atlantic Technology on Loudspeaker Design

Best Regards;

Gene DellaSala (GDS)
President, Audioholics.com
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Old 06-14-2011, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

Danny,

Simple question...is there sound improvement that you cannot measure? If yes, can you give an example? Just trying to get a better understanding of your stance.

Thanks

Yes, but I think we have gotten way off topic from the original thread. How about re-posting that question and continuing this line of discussion here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=16.0

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Old 06-14-2011, 10:17 AM
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*Your* forum .. you suggest it be continued on *your* forum?
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

*Your* forum .. you suggest it be continued on *your* forum?

Sure, we can have the same discussion there and then we will not further detract from this Axiom thread.

Feel free to post there or join in.

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Old 06-14-2011, 10:29 AM
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Resonance, calibration, x-overs, blah blah blah....why has no one addressed one of the main complaints of the link: build quality. Wouldn't the lack of bracing and solid internals contribute just as much to impressions of brightness etc? I'm not an axiom owner and have considered the qs8's but I noticed in Axiom's initial reply that they did not defend their materials and build quality (surfaces/veneers not counting), which is perhaps the least subjective aspect of speaker design considering flat impact of sound quality.

Waiting for MST3k BD 3D 7.1
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:32 AM
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well, i'm glad we got back on topic.
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Old 06-14-2011, 11:20 AM
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well, i'm glad we got back on topic.

It only took how many posts?

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Old 06-14-2011, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Andronicus81 View Post

Resonance, calibration, x-overs, blah blah blah....why has no one addressed one of the main complaints of the link: build quality. Wouldn't the lack of bracing and solid internals contribute just as much to impressions of brightness etc? I'm not an axiom owner and have considered the qs8's but I noticed in Axiom's initial reply that they did not defend their materials and build quality (surfaces/veneers not counting), which is perhaps the least subjective aspect of speaker design considering flat impact of sound quality.

I believe some of it was answered. Axiom stated that you can over brace a speaker and that they applied just the right amount of bracing. Same with polyfill (they added just the right amount without overstuffing) and I am pretty sure there were debates around the quality of the parts.

For me, I would expect more from the Axiom floorstanders. While not the best of the best, they are not exactly budget speakers either.
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:34 PM
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I believe some of it was answered. Axiom stated that you can over brace a speaker and that they applied just the right amount of bracing. Same with polyfill (they added just the right amount without overstuffing) and I am pretty sure there were debates around the quality of the parts.

Many loudspeaker designers will disagree with this as can be seen in the editorial I just posted where I interviewed Atlantic Technology on this very topic.

The reality is that the physical coupling of the speaker to the cabinet is going to make frequencies accompanied by higher excursions (read lower frequencies) more problematic and more likely to result in panel excitation than a high Q resonance at a higher frequency.

A stiffer cabinet will simply color the sound less. Less glue, less staples, less screws, and/or less bracing and less effort go into a cheaper cabinet making the enterprise more profitable at a given price point. It is a much faster process to throw the cabinet together than to take the time to do it right. We will discuss this further in the article we are currently working on.

If you tap on the side of a speaker or subwoofer cabinet and it sounds hollow or resonant, then that is an indication the builder could have used more robust bracing internally to reduce the coloration caused by excessive cabinet resonances. Granted for budget products its understandable that compromises are made but if we are talking state of the art, then you should expect more and often expect to pay more.

Best Regards;

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Old 06-14-2011, 01:41 PM
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No more cocktails on the Axiom dock for you!
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

No more cocktails on the Axiom dock for you!

no more advertising either I suspect


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Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post

All;

We just published a detailed interview about Loudspeaker Design with Atlantic Technology that gives some great info on many of the topics discussed here.

I have more interviews scheduled and hope to publish them prior to our formal article scheduled to come out.

umm why interview a marketing guy about speaker design? what does he know other than lots of jargon? why not interview the actual designer?
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:31 PM
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umm why interview a marketing guy about speaker design? what does he know other than lots of jargon? why not interview the actual designer?

Many marketing guys for tech companies start out as design engineers. Steve worked directly with his designers on this interview article for fact checking.

Best Regards;

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Old 06-14-2011, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post

Many loudspeaker designers will disagree with this as can be seen in the editorial I just posted where I interviewed Atlantic Technology on this very topic.

The reality is that the physical coupling of the speaker to the cabinet is going to make frequencies accompanied by higher excursions (read lower frequencies) more problematic and more likely to result in panel excitation than a high Q resonance at a higher frequency.

A stiffer cabinet will simply color the sound less. Less glue, less staples, less screws, and/or less bracing and less effort go into a cheaper cabinet making the enterprise more profitable at a given price point. It is a much faster process to throw the cabinet together than to take the time to do it right. We will discuss this further in the article we are currently working on.

If you tap on the side of a speaker or subwoofer cabinet and it sounds hollow or resonant, then that is an indication the builder could have used more robust bracing internally to reduce the coloration caused by excessive cabinet resonances. Granted for budget products its understandable that compromises are made but if we are talking state of the art, then you should expect more and often expect to pay more.

Thanks for posting Gene. I am reading the article you referenced from Atlantic Technology and it is a very interesting read.

I had an opportunity to listen to some Triad speakers recently and it seems pretty obvious they they did not cut corners on their enclosure (this was the Gold in-wall LCR's). Little beasts. Paul Scarepelli takes great pride in that Triad uses top of the line components and does not cut corners in their enclosures. I have to admit, Triad is now on my wish list.
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:56 PM
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I had an opportunity to listen to some Triad speakers recently and it seems pretty obvious they they did not cut corners on their enclosure (this was the Gold in-wall LCR's). Little beasts. Paul Scarepelli takes great pride in that Triad uses top of the line components and does not cut corners in their enclosures. I have to admit, Triad is now on my wish list.

Triad speakers are engineered marvels. Open up a Triad speaker and you won't find a hollow box. Paul is one of the next people I plan to interview on this very topic.

Best Regards;

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Old 06-14-2011, 03:14 PM
 
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I swore as a favor to Danny that I would stay out of this thread, but you are forcing my hand here Gene, with some dubious statements .

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Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post

The reality is that the physical coupling of the speaker to the cabinet is going to make frequencies accompanied by higher excursions (read lower frequencies) more problematic and more likely to result in panel excitation than a high Q resonance at a higher frequency.

So far so good....

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Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post

A stiffer cabinet will simply color the sound less.

Whoa. That is too generic a statement without caveats.
How stiff? When is "stiff enough" a factor when you start talking about "color the sound". Do panel resonances automatically lead to perception of "colored sound" in the far field...in a reverberant room? At what level?
Is it possible that some resonance is still innocuous? How much/at what frequencies, etc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post

Less glue, less staples, less screws, and/or less bracing and less effort go into a cheaper cabinet making the enterprise more profitable at a given price point. It is a much faster process to throw the cabinet together than to take the time to do it right. We will discuss this further in the article we are currently working on.

All true, but at what point is any/all of this audible?

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Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post

If you tap on the side of a speaker or subwoofer cabinet and it sounds hollow or resonant, then that is an indication the builder could have used more robust bracing internally to reduce the coloration caused by excessive cabinet resonances. Granted for budget products its understandable that compromises are made but if we are talking state of the art, then you should expect more and often expect to pay more.

Be careful that you don't tap yourself into believing what you are going to hear, rather than what is there to be heard.

cheers,

AJ
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:15 PM
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Many marketing guys for tech companies start out as design engineers. Steve worked directly with his designers on this interview article for fact checking.

Vance confirmed all that?
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:17 PM
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Triad speakers are engineered marvels. Open up a Triad speaker and you won't find a hollow box. Paul is one of the next people I plan to interview on this very topic.

I wouldn't mind seeing the results of an accelerometer taped to the side panels. In the AT interview I wouldn't mind some fleshing out of what levels of distortion they consider problematical. In fact I'd like to have them pick one of their speakers and illustrate either with pictures or measurements how the speaker achieves their design goals.

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Old 06-14-2011, 03:27 PM
 
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I wouldn't mind seeing the results of an accelerometer taped to the side panels.

Stereophile does that, yet often it seems that they don't perceive any specific coloration. Or maybe they do. Who knows?
Again, I would urge caution at "looking" at accelerometer resonances and saying, see, it's audible.

cheers,

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Old 06-14-2011, 03:48 PM
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Whoa. That is too generic a statement without caveats.
How stiff? When is "stiff enough" a factor when you start talking about "color the sound". Do panel resonances automatically lead to perception of "colored sound" in the far field...in a reverberant room? At what level?
Is it possible that some resonance is still innocuous? How much/at what frequencies, etc?

We will go a bit further on this in our article. Speakers enclosures should be designed to not resonate independent of the farfield listening room conditions. This can be measured via accelorometer tests and high power impedance sweeps with slow reverse sinewave sweeps. and yes I've tapped on many subs that sounded like a hollow box which was quite obvious from the listening tests prior. Proper bracing and resonant control is not even a debated topic in any other discipline than consumer audio (and then only a select few). Rigid enclosures are just a good idea for any mechanical devices intended to produce accurate sound.

Cabinet bracing - a thick walled MDF or HDF enclosure will shift cabinet resonance higher, going higher means the less prominent amplitude it will have.

Tower speakers have large panels. Resonance is determined by size of panel, a tower with no bracing occurs 1/4 wavelength to the height of the panel size. A 4ft tower speaker with no bracing would have a fundamental resonance at 280Hz with multiple harmonics above that.

Bracing essentially reduces panel length, 1/3 for single brace, to 1/4 for more braces length of cabinet. 200-500Hz region if not properly braced is most critically audible so to claim you want to lower panel resonance IMO just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Best Regards;

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Old 06-14-2011, 03:49 PM
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Many marketing guys for tech companies start out as design engineers.

You do realize that there may be a non-flattering reason for that, don't you?

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Old 06-14-2011, 04:51 PM
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Here's one of the latest pictures of my Axiom Audio speakers that I have, minus the EP350 sub-woofer off to the side. I'm one of the regular members of the Axiom forums for the past couple of years. This is the first I've seen this particular thread at AVSFORUM, and haven't read all of the messages yet. My original design was with the 2 on-wall M22's to the side and a matching VP100 below. I liked the sound of the bookshelf speaker much better, so that's why I've incorporated their use here. This setup may not look the best, but it gives the best sound quality overall.

For mains I use a dual pair of M22's. 2 bookshelf and 2 on-walls. For center I use an VP150 on/in wall below and an M2 bookshelf above.

I don't have any surrounds. This is a 3.1 system, powered by a single 2009 Pioneer Elite VSX-21TXH.

The only other speaker's I've had personal experience with was a Sony HTIB in Early 2000's, and a pair of Bose 901's from mid 1970's.

My personal thoughts on the Axiom experience with these speakers are as follows:

Concerning comb filtering, I have walked around the room extensively with a Radio Shack audio meter. I have not noticed any comb filtering with the bookshelf speakers, but with the on-wall M22's, it is rampant. I get a different volume reading while playing a steady tone just moving the meter an inch at a time. The bookshelfs and towers are the companies main speakers, and the on-wall versions are for looks only to satisfy customer demand. Any evaluation should only be done with the bookshelf versions, IMO. The on-walls are a bit brighter than the bookshelf designs.

My opinion of these are they are an easy speaker to turn the volume up with and the brightness will appear on higher volumes, as will all other frequencys. To compensate, I adjust the built in equalizer in the AVR to cancel out some of the brightness. This is an ongoing project, so I don't have what I would consider audio nirvana, but the sound quality is improving.

Overall, I'm extremely pleased with these speakers. The detail is just breathtaking at times. I never tire of putting in a new CD and listening to them. Lately I've setup so I can stream Netflix, etc and I've just discovered Pandora. I was expecting low quality streaming, but instead am impressed with what I'm hearing even from that source.
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