Cambridge Audio Minx Satellite Speakers and Home Theater Systems Discussion Thread - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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If the Sub's crossover is used along with the one in the AVR, the signal gets passed through two crossover filters—one in the AVR and one in the sub—which can make it sound out-of-whack. That's why it is best to disable the one in the Subwoofer. If this is not possible or one doesn't have a separate LFE input into the Subwoofer, it is best to set the crossover frequency as high as possible and make sure the crossover frequency in the AVR is lower than that. This is not ideal, but it's the best one can do.

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post #1172 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Sergio,

If you are running the Minx satellites by themselves, then the lower power handling spec is 15-50W. If you are running them with a Subwoofer and/or using an AVR with it's appropriate crossover frequency, it's the higher 25-200 Watt specification.

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post #1173 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 12:41 PM
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How would I go about disabling the crossover on the sub? Im using a minx sub. Im not sure this can done. So what would you say would b best for me. My AVR crosses over right up to 200 and goes up in multiples of 10 and as you know the x200 can be set to 200htz also. I had always set my sub crossover the same as the AVRs as I thought this was correct. Thanks in advance
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post #1174 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

If the Sub's crossover is used along with the one in the AVR, the signal gets passed through two crossover filters—one in the AVR and one in the sub—which can make it sound out-of-whack.
There's no issue with so doing, and nothing's out of whack. All that happens is that you end up with the total filter slope being that of the two added together. If both have 2nd order filters, for instance, the total is 4th order.

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post #1175 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Eddyw78 View Post

How would I go about disabling the crossover on the sub? Im using a minx sub. Im not sure this can done. So what would you say would b best for me. My AVR crosses over right up to 200 and goes up in multiples of 10 and as you know the x200 can be set to 200htz also. I had always set my sub crossover the same as the AVRs as I thought this was correct. Thanks in advance

Turn the crossover up as high as it will go on the Sub. If you are getting confused by the answers here rolleyes.gif, contact Cambridge Audio directly.

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post #1176 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

If you are getting confused by the answers here rolleyes.gif, contact Cambridge Audio directly.
And by all means Google the names of those giving their advice. cool.gif

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post #1177 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 12:55 PM
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No that makes it clear thanks Perpendicular. So I've got my AVR set to 150 and the x200 all the way up to 200htz. So this would be correct. From reading ypur posts I would say that you would know better than CA!!!
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post #1178 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

Sergio,

If you are running the Minx satellites by themselves, then the lower power handling spec is 15-50W. If you are running them with a Subwoofer and/or using an AVR with it's appropriate crossover frequency, it's the higher 25-200 Watt specification.

Thanks a lot for the quick answer Jeff. Since I will run them with a powered subwoofer (maybe one of the models people suggested a few posts ago) the minx 11 as front speakers and the minx 10 at the back and surround might do a good job, from what I learned from you guys here. I did not make my mind about the center yet. I will try to convince my wife that the polk OWM5 is "beautiful" and use it in the center because of its frequency range 60Hz-25kHz. If I fail in convincing her, do you think that the minx 11 would do a good job in the center?

Thanks,

Sergio
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post #1179 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

And by all means Google the names of those giving their advice. cool.gif

Since you didn't like my "Out-Of-Whack" interpretation, here's a better one:

Quote:
Failing to disable your sub's internal crossover can cause excessive losses in the subwoofers passband thus degrading the sound quality when used in conjunction with your A/V receiver's bass management facilities. This is especially true if the crossover frequency of both the sub's LPF and your receiver's bass management are set to the same frequency. This is called cascading crossovers and should usually be avoided.

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post #1180 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Eddyw78 View Post

From reading your posts I would say that you would know better than CA!!!

Just so you know, I'm no expert, just trying to help out with what I believe to be true from experience. Not that it's always right. wink.gif

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post #1181 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ukjakemk View Post

Does any know if the 21's can be turned sideways like the centre speaker ? the bottom of the speakers are intruding on the top of the projector screen.

There was discussion about this a while back and I seem to recall that you can get a free grille from CA so their name will still be horizontal on the rotated speaker.
I don't recall who you contact for this. It was either through the CA website or the Canadian distributor.

Maybe someone can recall the details, or you can go spelunking through the thread.

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post #1182 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 03:42 PM
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It seems that Mr. Bill is the expert here. rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

Yea, you're right...

...he is one of them smile.gif

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post #1183 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

Yea, you're right...

...why would anyone want to listen to Bill, someone with years of experience designing speakers and a recognized expert here at AVS...

Well, am I supposed to "Know" who he is? All I'm stating is common knowledge regarding using dual crossovers. Nothing more.

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post #1184 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

Well, am I supposed to "Know" who he is?

You could follow his suggestion and google the person providing advice.

Quote:
All I'm stating is common knowledge regarding using dual crossovers. Nothing more.

If you had read Bill's post regarding this, he stated correctly that all that will happen is an increase in the drop-off slope of the low-pass filter.

You are absolutely right - best practice is to set the sub to the highest value possible (or bypass if it exists) and just use the filter in the AVR.

But there is no big issue if you do though, and unless one of them is poorly implement, nothing will be "out-of-whack".

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post #1185 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 05:53 PM
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Now kiddies play nice..... Or they'll close the thread.
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post #1186 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 06:01 PM
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Now kiddies play nice..... Or they'll close the thread.

Certainly not the goal - a bit of tidying above smile.gif

After all, we are all here to help each other out and learn a bit cool.gif

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post #1187 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

Well, am I supposed to "Know" who he is?
That's why we have public profiles.
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All I'm stating is common knowledge regarding using dual crossovers.
Just because knowledge is common doesn't mean it's correct. If the frequency of the low pass was changed when two crossovers are cascaded then it would be a very bad idea to do so. But it isn't. And not only can you cascade low pass filters, in some cases the system response will be better if the sub filter is set at lower frequency than that in the AVR. In some cases it may be better to have the sub low pass out of the loop. But the one thing you cannot say with any certainty is that low pass filters should never be cascaded. In the case of a system with the AVR low pass set above 80Hz it will almost always work better cascaded. It's when the AVR high pass is set below 80Hz that cascaded filters might not be advantageous.

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post #1188 of 1938 Old 02-17-2013, 08:44 PM
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Certainly not the goal - a bit of tidying above smile.gif

After all, we are all here to help each other out and learn a bit cool.gif

I know, I was just trying to put some levity out there. The funny part is that I really wish I understood what the heck you guys were talking about. LOL
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post #1189 of 1938 Old 02-18-2013, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MacNThorens View Post

Now kiddies play nice..... Or they'll close the thread.
Sorry guys, kind of wished I hadnt asked now as it seems to have caused abit of bother:(
I have now taken in all the advice and as I cannot disable my subs crossover I have left it at 200htz and set the AVRs to 150htz.Its a shame CA dont put info like this in with their equipment. The included manuals say nothing of how to set up a minx system in detail regarding crossovers and im sure the average consumer wouldnt know this.
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post #1190 of 1938 Old 02-18-2013, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Eddyw78 View Post

I have now taken in all the advice and as I cannot disable my subs crossover I have left it at 200htz and set the AVRs to 150htz.Its a shame CA dont put info like this in with their equipment. The included manuals say nothing of how to set up a minx system in detail regarding crossovers and im sure the average consumer wouldnt know this.
Have you tried moving the sub filter to 150Hz? Even lower? There's only one way to find out what the result will be, and it's not like you have to live with it if you don't care for it, the knob moves in both directions.

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post #1191 of 1938 Old 02-18-2013, 06:57 AM
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Will try that Bill thanks. Would that not create a hole between the selected setting on the sub and the crossover in the AVR if the sub were to be lower than what the AVR was outputting?
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post #1192 of 1938 Old 02-18-2013, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Eddyw78 View Post

Will try that Bill thanks. Would that not create a hole between the selected setting on the sub and the crossover in the AVR if the sub were to be lower than what the AVR was outputting?
Not necessarily. LP filters are not brick wall, output does not drop like a stone off a cliff at the LP frequency. It rolls off at a rate determined by the LP filter slope, which may be as steep as 24dB/octave, but may be as shallow as 6dB/octave. And there's also the response of the speaker to consider. Many subs, especially smaller subs, are more sensitive above their nominal passband than they are within their nominal passband. Correcting for that is why sometimes the result is better with the sub LP filter frequency set lower than the AVR filter frequency. Another potential issue is the slope of the high pass filter to the mains, which may not roll them off steeply enough to eliminate cross-talk between them and the subs; running the LP filter lower helps with that also.

Knowing what will work best is a matter of trial and error, unless you happen to have gear to measure in-room frequency response, but I wouldn't assume that would be the case with the average Minx owner.

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post #1193 of 1938 Old 02-18-2013, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

That's why we have public profiles.

So, you want me to take the time to read everyone's public profiles now?! tongue.gif

Anyway, I apologize. No disrespect. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Just because knowledge is common doesn't mean it's correct. If the frequency of the low pass was changed when two crossovers are cascaded then it would be a very bad idea to do so. But it isn't. And not only can you cascade low pass filters, in some cases the system response will be better if the sub filter is set at lower frequency than that in the AVR. In some cases it may be better to have the sub low pass out of the loop. But the one thing you cannot say with any certainty is that low pass filters should never be cascaded. In the case of a system with the AVR low pass set above 80Hz it will almost always work better cascaded. It's when the AVR high pass is set below 80Hz that cascaded filters might not be advantageous.

Understood. For the record, I appreciate the explanation and correction on this very topic.

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post #1194 of 1938 Old 02-18-2013, 03:32 PM
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Is there a "subwoofer 101" thread here.......I really want to understand what you all are talking about! wink.gif
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post #1195 of 1938 Old 02-18-2013, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I found that Bill has a Website that includes a Forum with a wealth of information. You could try there.

www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

This address is listed in his profile too. Maybe, I'll learn a thing or two. biggrin.gif

And don't forget about this Thread on AVS Forum.

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post #1196 of 1938 Old 02-18-2013, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

I found that Bill has a Website that includes a Forum with a wealth of information. You could try there.

www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

This address is listed in his profile too. Maybe, I'll learn a thing or two. biggrin.gif

Okay, the only thing I learned is that it's not for me. I'll just leave it at that. wink.gif

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post #1197 of 1938 Old 02-19-2013, 03:12 PM
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Hi All,

I am wondering if the Velodyne SPL-800 Ultra would be a good match for a Min20/21 set up? I know it only has a 8" woofer but I know Velodyne's are rated quite highly. Jim, if you get to read this, would welcome your input! Here is the info:

http://velodyne.com/pdf/spl/spl-ultra_series_manual_revc.pdf

How would it compare to the XTZ 99W10.16 both as a subwoofer & in terms of matching with the min20/21's?

http://shop.xtz.se/bild-ljud/hogtalare/subwoofer/XTZ-99-W10.16-Matt-Black?stat=1
http://www.xtz.se//product-assets/subwoofers/99w10.16-matt/manuals/99_w10_16_manual_eng.pdf

Bazzy!
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post #1198 of 1938 Old 02-19-2013, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

I am wondering if the Velodyne SPL-800 Ultra would be a good match for a Min20/21 set up? I know it only has a 8" woofer but I know Velodyne's are rated quite highly. Jim, if you get to read this, would welcome your input! Here is the info:

http://velodyne.com/pdf/spl/spl-ultra_series_manual_revc.pdf

How would it compare to the XTZ 99W10.16 both as a subwoofer & in terms of matching with the min20/21's?

http://shop.xtz.se/bild-ljud/hogtalare/subwoofer/XTZ-99-W10.16-Matt-Black?stat=1
http://www.xtz.se//product-assets/subwoofers/99w10.16-matt/manuals/99_w10_16_manual_eng.pdf

Having done a review on that exact XTZ model -- the W10.16 -- made me a fan of their products. I found it to be a high quality piece, so much so that I bought a W12.16 from them. I don't have any experience with the SPL-800 Ultra though, so all I can do is speculate. Unlike some I don't think everything Velodyne makes is bad, but they do seem to have more duds then successes recently. Based upon the spec's it looks as though it would integrate quite well. It strikes me as expensive for what you get, and the claimed 16Hz lower extension is rather comical, but it appears like it might work pretty well with the CA speakers.

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post #1199 of 1938 Old 02-19-2013, 04:20 PM
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Having done a review on that exact XTZ model -- the W10.16 -- made me a fan of their products. I found it to be a high quality piece, so much so that I bought a W12.16 from them. I don't have any experience with the SPL-800 Ultra though, so all I can do is speculate. Unlike some I don't think everything Velodyne makes is bad, but they do seem to have more duds then successes recently. Based upon the spec's it looks as though it would integrate quite well. It strikes me as expensive for what you get, and the claimed 16Hz lower extension is rather comical, but it appears like it might work pretty well with the CA speakers.

Hi Jim,

Many kind thanks matey! Which do you think might be the best match for the Min20/21's then?

Bazzy!
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post #1200 of 1938 Old 02-19-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post

Many kind thanks matey! Which do you think might be the best match for the Min20/21's then?

I think the XTZ would be a good fit, and based upon the spec's the SPL-800 seems like it might be too. My favorite is still probably the SVS SB12-NSD though. I'm listening to an SB1000 as I type this, which turns out to be a nice little subwoofer. That would probably work quite well. The Rythmik F12 is a very good sub that can be crossed over as high as 200Hz. Another possibility is the Aperion Bravus II 10D and 12D; they're both pretty small, and extend up to at least 180Hz.

I think any one of these would be worth considering.

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