Cambridge Audio Minx Satellite Speakers and Home Theater Systems Discussion Thread - Page 81 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2401 of 2426 Old 08-19-2015, 12:15 PM
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Hi All,

Just in case there might be an issue with Mark's Mirage MM8 Sub & if he might want to replace it, is the Jamo SUB 800 not pretty much exactly the same? I think I read somewhere that Jamo/Mirage merged sometime back bit not entirely sure..

http://www.jamo.com/speaker-lines/su...rs/?sku=SUB800

Luckily, there are now quite a few good choices of subs out there that will work well with the Minx speakers - i guess it boils down to budget & what form factor one wants.

Bazzy.
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post #2402 of 2426 Old 08-19-2015, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post
Mirage told you? Last time I checked they were out of business.


The MM-8 is not a sealed design in technical terms. It acts more like a ported design. But I see what you're trying to say.

I spoke with Mirage support this morning @

http://www.miragespeakers.com/support/

Mirage was bought by the Klipsch Group some time ago.

But the MM-8 is sealed. It has to be, in order for the air pressure enabled coupling between the driver and passive radiator(s) to take place. There is no port for air to move through.

There are sealed speakers without passive radiators, as well.

Last edited by taichi4; 08-19-2015 at 01:22 PM.
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post #2403 of 2426 Old 08-19-2015, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McIntosh View Post
...
So if I choose to replace it, for a 5.1 Minx setup in a 22 x 24 foot room, ...
Bass frequencies will "see" the entire room volume in three dimensional space. What is the floor to ceiling height of the room? Is the room totally sealed or does it open up to other rooms to the side?

Might want to consider keeping the MM-8 as a mid-bass module as the crossover to the Minx satellite speakers can go up to 200Hz. So the idea to place the MM-8 nearby the Minx speakers and place the larger subs else where in the room where the ultra low bass frequencies need to be reproduced cleanly for movies.

I.e. The Minx satellites + MM-8 combination will reproduce all signals say from 60Hz to 20,000kHz. For signals below 60Hz, pass this via bass management on the receiver to the larger subs.

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Last edited by steveting99; 08-19-2015 at 08:58 PM. Reason: typo and additional text
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post #2404 of 2426 Old 08-19-2015, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazzy View Post
Hi All,

Just in case there might be an issue with Mark's Mirage MM8 Sub & if he might want to replace it, is the Jamo SUB 800 not pretty much exactly the same? I think I read somewhere that Jamo/Mirage merged sometime back bit not entirely sure..
I was looking at that sub a few weeks ago and noticed that it's an MM-6 with the Jamo logo.
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post #2405 of 2426 Old 08-19-2015, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post
I spoke with Mirage support this morning @

http://www.miragespeakers.com/support/

Mirage was bought by the Klipsch Group some time ago.

But the MM-8 is sealed. It has to be, in order for the air pressure enabled coupling between the driver and passive radiator(s) to take place. There is no port for air to move through.

There are sealed speakers without passive radiators, as well.
You mean you spoke with Klipsch support.

It's too bad they wouldn't take the time to explain the difference between a passive, drone cone and sealed speaker / subwoofer to you.
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post #2406 of 2426 Old 08-20-2015, 08:39 AM
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The Klipsch Group owns the Mirage line, that number will answer as Mirage, and the technician with whom I spoke actually owns an MM-8, himself.

It is definitely a sealed enclosure, according to him. There are sealed enclosures without passive radiators, such as acoustic suspension speakers, and sealed units with passive radiators, such as the MM-8.

What we were talking about is why Mark's MM-8 was making weird sounds. My point was that whether this was a ported device (and you get chuffling) or a sealed device, the speaker was driven beyond its limits.

As the MM-8 is sealed (it has to be to work), the weird sounds come from the enormous increase of excursion and power demands when driving it below its stated specs.
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post #2407 of 2426 Old 08-20-2015, 10:17 AM
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Got home and ran the test tones. Sounded fine until it got down to the lowest tones and made the rattling sound. I have run the test tones before without this issue, so maybe there is a problem with the driver. Got online and chatted with the SVS folks. First off - AMAZING customer service. He was careful not to say my sub was broken and that it could easily be just an issue with the sub not being capable of performing in the lowest frequencies. Also spent some time going through why I could be over-driving the sub trying to get an 8 inch sub to fill a room that is 22 x 24 x 8 (around 4200 cubic feet). Long story short I ordered the SB2000. Hate to spend that much money for an issue that only comes up infrequently, but when I get the opportunity to watch a movie at home theater volume, I don't want the most intense scenes spoiled by the rattling.

So, I'm intrigued by the comment to continue using the MM-8 alongside the SB2000. I'm not sure I can configure this because I don't have a way to run the sub cable to the other side of the room. But my question is - why would I spend this much money on a new sub and only use it for the very lowest frequencies? Shouldn't this beast sound better in all frequencies? SVS also suggested I try the crossover for the Minx speakers at 120 and see if I can tell a difference - good or bad - so I changed the crossover in my receiver settings and I really couldn't tell a difference. Is this a bad idea? What are you using as your crossover? Thanks for all your help - I love reading all the knowledge you guys are so willing to share.
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post #2408 of 2426 Old 08-20-2015, 10:46 AM
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Why you might refer to it as Hybrid

Passive radiators in loudspeakers can operate by means of two principles.
Pneumatics
Resonance

Most all of the passive radiator designs which I know of use the first principle. Air pressure changes caused by reciprocal movement of the active driver causes the passive radiator to move. This only works within a sealed enclosure.

Although it may be possible to build a passive design where the effects are purposely produced by resonance... which requires no sealed enclosure... this would seem impractical for a number of reasons, most importantly being the fact that certain narrow frequencies would be so strongly reinforced that you would get a number of pronounced spikes, not what you would want to see in a frequency response graph, nor in a neutral sounding speaker.

I think one reason that sometimes passive radiators are considered hybrid, is because they have audio characteristics from both sealed and ported designs. They are hybrid in sound, not operating principles.

Another reason may be because some describe passive designs as replacing the port (and the movement\resistance of air) with a solid mass. So instead of air within a tube acting as resistance, you have the solid radiator. Like a ported design, the reciprocal energy produced by the active driver is used as an additional source of acoustical energy, "radiating" into the environment.

This does constitute a similarity between the two designs, but the pneumatic passive radiator works within a sealed enclosure.

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post #2409 of 2426 Old 08-20-2015, 10:59 AM
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Off the fence

Congratulations, Mark, on getting the new subwoofer! You will definitely be getting more satisfying sound, and I think the representative' s point about the room size being too much for the MM-8 is a good one, with contributing factors being that low frequency sound track.

Apparently, you were running the MM-8 for a long time before you experienced this, so maybe you just created the perfect storm to produce the undesirable sound... an otherwise excellent sub, always working hard to produce sound in your large room, finally being pushed beyond its limits by a heavy-duty soundtrack.
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post #2410 of 2426 Old 08-20-2015, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McIntosh View Post
...

So, I'm intrigued by the comment to continue using the MM-8 alongside the SB2000. I'm not sure I can configure this because I don't have a way to run the sub cable to the other side of the room. But my question is - why would I spend this much money on a new sub and only use it for the very lowest frequencies? Shouldn't this beast sound better in all frequencies? SVS also suggested I try the crossover for the Minx speakers at 120 and see if I can tell a difference - good or bad - so I changed the crossover in my receiver settings and I really couldn't tell a difference. Is this a bad idea? What are you using as your crossover? Thanks for all your help - I love reading all the knowledge you guys are so willing to share.
Mark,

The setup I had previously talked about would be more complex 3-way system that involves an external electronic crossover than a simple two-way satellite + sub combination (Minx + SB2000) that you're going down.

Taking a step back and looking at the big picture, the simple 2-way setup involves just the receiver which will split the frequencies between the highs and mids to the Minx and bass to the sub. This is accomplished by the bass management feature where a crossover frequency is selected (say 150Hz for the Minx).

The listening room has an impact to the bass frequencies due to the enclosed nature of the room boundaries. The sub is sending out low frequency pressure waves that bounce off the room boundaries and interact with each other. At certain points in the room, the pressure waves will be constructive and add up to peak Sound Pressure Level (SPL) and a few feet away it will be destructive and cancel each other out as a null. This is known as room modes and every listening room has it. The points are room dimensional and frequency dependent.

Since you're going to have both the MM-8 and the SB2000 in the same room, there is neat trick that you can employ that will improve the bass response overall. Place the MM-8 near field or as close as possible to where the Main Listening Position (MLP) is. Place the larger SB2000 at the room boundary where the best bass response is going to be. To determine this, carry out a sub crawl as shown in the youtube video by Axiom Audio below.

Gain match both subs so that at any listening level, both subs have the same output and maintain sufficient headroom. This is where the near field (and weaker sub) has to do less work compared to the far field (stronger sub) that is easily meeting SPL. You will need to invest in a hand held SPL meter to do this.

From the back of your receiver, if you have dual independent sub outputs, simply connect each sub accordingly and run the auto calibration procedure. The auto calibration will set up individual level and delay for each sub, and then send a combined signal to time align both.

If your receiver does not have independent sub outputs, use a Y-split to connect both the MM-8 and SB2000 off the single sub pre-out channel. You will have to manually adjust the phase angle of the near field sub (MM-8) from it's zero position so that it is time aligned with the far field sub. To do this, play some bass heavy tunes and check for seat to seat consistency from the MLP. Once you're happy with the manual time alignment, run the auto calibration on the receiver for the combined subs.
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post #2411 of 2426 Old 08-21-2015, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Passive radiators in loudspeakers can operate by means of two principles.
Pneumatics
Resonance
I should have known, you're smarter than me.
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post #2412 of 2426 Old 08-22-2015, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I will have up for sale soon, my three Min 21 (in black). Also, will be selling my three Min 20 (in black). PM if interested!

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post #2413 of 2426 Old 08-26-2015, 10:07 AM
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Hi

I'm new on this forum so i hope i'm in the right place ..

I don't have any space to put surround speakers behind me but i can put speakers in the ceiling

I was thinking of getting a pair of Minx 12 or 22 to complete my 5.1 system

Will they do the job for me as surround speakers?

This is my current setup

Yamaha RX A850
JBL Studio 280 Front speakers
JBL Studio 235C Center
JBL Studio 250p
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post #2414 of 2426 Old 08-26-2015, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by hd595 View Post
Hi

I'm new on this forum so i hope i'm in the right place ..

I don't have any space to put surround speakers behind me but i can put speakers in the ceiling

I was thinking of getting a pair of Minx 12 or 22 to complete my 5.1 system

Will they do the job for me as surround speakers?

This is my current setup

Yamaha RX A850
JBL Studio 280 Front speakers
JBL Studio 235C Center
JBL Studio 250p
They will definitely do the job for surrounds. I was skeptical at first until I was able to auditioned them. I was very surprise how much sound the Minx21 put out. They are small speakers so bass is lacking, but not needed if you have a subwoofer.

Definitely excellent speakers for mains or surrounds.
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post #2415 of 2426 Old 08-26-2015, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by hd595 View Post
Hi

I'm new on this forum so i hope i'm in the right place ..

I don't have any space to put surround speakers behind me but i can put speakers in the ceiling

I was thinking of getting a pair of Minx 12 or 22 to complete my 5.1 system

Will they do the job for me as surround speakers?

This is my current setup

Yamaha RX A850
JBL Studio 280 Front speakers
JBL Studio 235C Center
JBL Studio 250p
Hi there,

i suggest that you get the Minx 22 (yes they are double the price, but you will not regret it later).

my system is
B&W 603 S2 Fronts
B&W LCR600 S3 Center
B&W LM-1 Surround rears
Minx 22 Surround backs and yes they do their job quite nicely, so you will be more than ok.

@Perpendicular , i don't currently have money but i might be interested for the 21... too bad they are not white
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post #2416 of 2426 Old 08-26-2015, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TeDeV View Post
...

@Perpendicular , i don't currently have money but i might be interested for the 21... too bad they are not white
Planning for the Atmos ceiling speakers?

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post #2417 of 2426 Old Yesterday, 12:10 AM
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Planning for the Atmos ceiling speakers?
My Onkyo 709 does not support ATMOS

i wish my AVR was 9.2 but it was too damn expensive. I used to have an Onkyo 609 which i really loved (for Movies) but my subwoofer calibration was a mess and i always wanted pre-outs, so i gave it to my father and got a 709. (Audyssey XT vs 2EQ).

i would choose XT32 over Atmos any day! but i would really like to have front-heights in my room.

on the subject now.. if the price is not a wallet-killer i am interested into using the 21s as fronts in my Logitech z-5500 sound system.

my logitech z-5500 system consists of...

2x Bose model 100 fronts
1x Sony center
2x logitech speakers as surround rears
and of course the very nice sub of 5500s! (for 250€, this is how much i bought the set NEW, you can't get a better sound system than that)

----

PS. I have a question guys and i don't know where to ask it exactly in this forum

since my 709 has pre-outs i am wondering if i will ACTUALLY hear a difference with an external amplifier for my 2 front speakers.
i am looking for a value-for-money solution. how about emotiva? the problem is that my 603s are old, and MAYBE my 709 is giving them the best they can do? not sure. if you have any opinions on the subject, i would like to hear it.

Thanks

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post #2418 of 2426 Old Yesterday, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by TeDeV View Post
...
PS. I have a question guys and i don't know where to ask it exactly in this forum

since my 709 has pre-outs i am wondering if i will ACTUALLY hear a difference with an external amplifier for my 2 front speakers.
i am looking for a value-for-money solution. how about emotiva? the problem is that my 603s are old, and MAYBE my 709 is giving them the best they can do? not sure. if you have any opinions on the subject, i would like to hear it.

Thanks
While this is off topic regarding the use of external amp vs. internal amp of the receiver, if you're operating the internal amp of the Onkyo TX-NR709 within it's specified capacity (110W per channel into 8 ohms under stereo mode with a THD of 0.08% from 20Hz to 20kHz) and not over driven them to clipping, there would be no audible difference to that of an external amp - sound wise.

The Sound Pressure Level (SPL) that you like to listen to depends on the speaker sensitivity (given in XXdB/W/m) the distance between the listener and the speaker as well as amp power plus a few other factors. Use the following web app to determine this based on a number of factors: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Note when some says it's twice as loud as the previous setting, that means +10dB more in SPL. Unfortunately +10dB in SPL as means 10X in amp power requirements. A +3dB increase in SPL is 2X the amp power requirements.

One also needs to be aware of the peak value of the source material (0dBFS) being played vs. the nominal. This is often referred to as headroom available in the sound reproduction chain.

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Last edited by steveting99; Yesterday at 12:36 AM. Reason: typo
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post #2419 of 2426 Old Yesterday, 01:36 AM
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While this is off topic regarding the use of external amp vs. internal amp of the receiver, if you're operating the internal amp of the Onkyo TX-NR709 within it's specified capacity (110W per channel into 8 ohms under stereo mode with a THD of 0.08% from 20Hz to 20kHz) and not over driven them to clipping, there would be no audible difference to that of an external amp - sound wise.

The Sound Pressure Level (SPL) that you like to listen to depends on the speaker sensitivity (given in XXdB/W/m) the distance between the listener and the speaker as well as amp power plus a few other factors. Use the following web app to determine this based on a number of factors: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Note when some says it's twice as loud as the previous setting, that means +10dB more in SPL. Unfortunately +10dB in SPL as means 10X in amp power requirements. A +3dB increase in SPL is 2X the amp power requirements.

One also needs to be aware of the peak value of the source material (0dBFS) being played vs. the nominal. This is often referred to as headroom available in the sound reproduction chain.
ok you kinda lost me there, but i appreciate it

this is my result
http://c2n.me/3mFXVQ6

when i am watching a movie it is always 7.2 (subs are active of course), so the AVR is trying to give 110W to 7 speakers (yeah... right). when i am listening to music i am trying to use stereo.
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ok you kinda lost me there, but i appreciate it

this is my result
...
I re-did your results to with just two channel stereo mode and the peak SPL at the listening position came up to 108.7dB! That's really loud. Note the exposure time limit at these SPL and risks related to hearing loss at the bottom of the web app.

Most consider the reference value of 85dB on average to be too loud and you have more than 23dB of headroom available for peaks! Unless you listen to classical music that has cannonballs as part of it's soundtrack, 20dB of headroom is more than sufficient for general music playback. THX recommends a 20dB headroom from 85dB nominal value to reach peaks of 105dB at the listening position.

Note that calculations assumes the full range signals are going to the front left and right speakers with no bass management. Most people would implement bass management to divert the power hungry low frequencies to a more capable sub.

So you're okay with the Onkyo TX-NR709 and it's 110W per channel in stereo mode. You don't need an external amp.

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I re-did your results to with just two channel stereo mode and the peak SPL at the listening position came up to 108.7dB! That's really loud. Note the exposure time limit at these SPL and risks related to hearing loss at the bottom of the web app.

Most consider the reference value of 85dB on average to be too loud and you have more than 23dB of headroom available for peaks! Unless you listen to classical music that has cannonballs as part of it's soundtrack, 20dB of headroom is more than sufficient for general music playback. THX recommends a 20dB headroom from 85dB nominal value to reach peaks of 105dB at the listening position.

Note that calculations assumes the full range signals are going to the front left and right speakers with no bass management. Most people would implement bass management to divert the power hungry low frequencies to a more capable sub.

So you're okay with the Onkyo TX-NR709 and it's 110W per channel in stereo mode. You don't need an external amp.
thanks steve i am glad that you are impressed by my peek

i am like 3 meters away from my fronts, i don't have them as full range but as small at 80Hz (THX).
and don't forget that i rarely use it as stereo. most of the times i am watching movies with 7 speakers.
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thanks steve i am glad that you are impressed by my peek

i am like 3 meters away from my fronts, i don't have them as full range but as small at 80Hz (THX).
and don't forget that i rarely use it as stereo. most of the times i am watching movies with 7 speakers.
Based on your setup, I suspect the Onkyo TX-NR709 is using just a few watts of amp power majority of the time to drive your speakers.

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Got my new SB2000 sub in last Saturday and have been tweaking the setup. That thing is a beast. I can definitely hear bass from areas of the room that didn't seem filled before. So now I'm in full upgrade fever mode. I read all the way back to when the discussion of the Min 22's came out. I'm running 5 min 20's, so I'm wondering if the general opinion is still good toward the 22's. I read back that the upgrade didn't seem to be worth it to go from the 20 to the 21, but would be to go to from the 21 to the 22, so my brilliant mathematical mind is assuming I should hear a pretty big difference between the 20's and the 22's. Is that a correct assumption? Would it be foolish to get 22's for the LCR and keep the 20's for the rears in a 5.1 setup? Would I notice a big difference if I went to all 5 22's. I listen to a lot of music in all channel stereo.
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post #2424 of 2426 Old Yesterday, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark McIntosh View Post
Got my new SB2000 sub in last Saturday and have been tweaking the setup. That thing is a beast. I can definitely hear bass from areas of the room that didn't seem filled before. So now I'm in full upgrade fever mode. I read all the way back to when the discussion of the Min 22's came out. I'm running 5 min 20's, so I'm wondering if the general opinion is still good toward the 22's. I read back that the upgrade didn't seem to be worth it to go from the 20 to the 21, but would be to go to from the 21 to the 22, so my brilliant mathematical mind is assuming I should hear a pretty big difference between the 20's and the 22's. Is that a correct assumption? Would it be foolish to get 22's for the LCR and keep the 20's for the rears in a 5.1 setup? Would I notice a big difference if I went to all 5 22's. I listen to a lot of music in all channel stereo.
I'll give you the same advice I gave Jeff back then: "DOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEET!!!!!!"


Glad you're loving the SVS, wish I have the space for one but I barely have my X200 shoehorned into the space it's in.
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post #2425 of 2426 Old Yesterday, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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@Perpendicular , i don't currently have money but i might be interested for the 21... too bad they are not white
I, like many others here, have reverted back to using my Emotiva Stealth monitors for my LCR. I moved my Minx Min 22 to side surround duty. I was pleasantly surprised by how much better the Min 22 blends with the Heil type tweeters. Reason being had to do with the sale, or lack thereof.

Yes, I have three Min 21 and three Min 20 all in black for sale. Make me an offer. You may be surprised what I'll sell them for!

Also, I'm contemplating selling my Mirage MM-8 subwoofers (2). I should know by sometime next week.

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[QUOTE=Perpendicular;36831778]I, like many others here, have reverted back to using my Emotiva Stealth monitors for my LCR. I moved my Minx Min 22 to side surround duty. I was pleasantly surprised by how much better the Min 22 blends with the Heil type tweeters. Reason being had to do with the sale, or lack thereof.


Well, that isn't exactly the response I was expecting!! Aren't the Emotiva Stealth monitors around $750 apiece, so X 3 for LCR, plus possible surround replacements? I'm not opposed to throwing money at my system but that's more than I would want to spend on this upgrade for my audio needs.
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