Need EXPERT advise on speaker placement. Wall of text and pic ahead! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 06-08-2011, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I am moving from 5.1 to a 7.1 system and I need some advise on the placement of the new 2 channels. My 5.1 system sounds fine as it is so I can't and don't need to change any existing speakers. Right now I am using a 15 year old sony 5.1 receiver and it looks like I will be getting the Denon 2112ci soon. My speakers are infinity alpha 50s and matching center and infinity primus for the surrounds.

Here's are my options; (Red color on pic is existing speakers)

I originally wanted to add rear surrounds but they will be very close (see green option on pic). Behind the couch is a window and they will literally have to sit on the lip of the window to work. Many people said that it is too close and would be a distraction and would be better off with front wides or highs.

I have no room for any more tower or bookshelf speakers so they will have to be in wall or in ceiling. I just got some in walls really cheap that I never even heard of. They are a pair of Dayton Audio 85 watts 2 ways. They look brand new and just holding them in the air , I was very impressed with the sound.

I know they would not be timbre matched to the infinitys so I would think that it may mess up the front wide immersion effect but I have a very small place to use them in wall as front wides ( see blue color option on pic) they would be a pain in the butt to instal in wall but could be done.

Finally, I could do in ceiling which since highs would be more ambient sounds, it may sound better being that they are not matched to the infinitys. (see pink puke purple color option on pic)

I have plenty of freedom to move the in ceilings where ever they should go but the in wall front wide option can only go in the spots on the pic due to openings, bricks and stuff.

So what should I do to get the best out of what I have to work with? I have a feeling from my research that in ceiling would be the best and if you all agree, where should the in ceilings go? Directly above the front mains? Can I widen them out? Right above the listening area? HELP PLEASE!!!
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post #2 of 17 Old 06-08-2011, 02:52 PM
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Your receiver will not have Audyssey DSX. Therefore, you cannot use Wide speakers. That receiver will only have Dolby PLIIz with Height speakers.
http://usa.denon.com/US/Product/Page...1-02eb4ef6182f

With PLIIz, the height speakers are intended to be mounted directly above the L/R speakers and be aimed at the listening position. If you want to use the in-walls you have, they should be mounted directly above the L and R front speakers. If they have aimable tweeters, the tweeters should be aimed down at the listening position. See this video for more info:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/experi...logic-iiz.html

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post #3 of 17 Old 06-08-2011, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Your receiver will not have Audyssey DSX. Therefore, you cannot use Wide speakers. That receiver will only have Dolby PLIIz with Height speakers.
http://usa.denon.com/US/Product/Page...1-02eb4ef6182f

With PLIIz, the height speakers are intended to be mounted directly above the L/R speakers and be aimed at the listening position. If you want to use the in-walls you have, they should be mounted directly above the L and R front speakers. If they have aimable tweeters, the tweeters should be aimed down at the listening position. See this video for more info:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/experi...logic-iiz.html

Craig

Thanks, did not notice that wides were not supported. That's ok. The video was helpful too. The in ceilings do not have an aimable tweeter, they can only face directly down.. Would it hurt if I brought them a little wider than the fronts? Since they are not directly aimed, would it be better to bring them in closer towards the seating area so they are not reflecting off the wall so much? Thanks again for the help guys!
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post #4 of 17 Old 06-08-2011, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agent8 View Post

Thanks, did not notice that wides were not supported. That's ok. The video was helpful too. The in ceilings do not have an aimable tweeter, they can only face directly down.. Would it hurt if I brought them a little wider than the fronts? Since they are not directly aimed, would it be better to bring them in closer towards the seating area so they are not reflecting off the wall so much? Thanks again for the help guys!

With in-ceiling speakers, think of them like a spotlight. They shine a cone of sound straight down below the speaker. The higher in frequency you go, the tighter the "beam" of the cone. If you're sitting outside the cone, the sound quality will deteriorate rapidly.

Frankly, for Dolby PLIIz Heights, I suggest in-walls, (or on-walls), mounted directly above the front L/R's. Get speakers with aimable tweeters and aim them at the LP. Anything less than that is a serious compromise. It may "work", but it won't work correctly, and it likely isn't worth doing.

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post #5 of 17 Old 06-08-2011, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Poop. Yeah, I can't go in wall above the mains as the right side is a glass block wall... From the front of my screen and front of my L and R main speakers is 10 feet from my #1 seating position. What if I put them in at about 5 feet 1/2 way between the seating and tv? I am already going to have to haggle with my wife to get the denon 2112cI so I can't afford other in wall speakers with an aimable tweeter.

I am looking at the in walls I have and the tweeter has 4 mounting screws. What if I backed them out and "shimed" the tweeters toward the listening area?
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post #6 of 17 Old 06-08-2011, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agent8 View Post

Poop. Yeah, I can't go in wall above the mains as the right side is a glass block wall... From the front of my screen and front of my L and R main speakers is 10 feet from my #1 seating position. What if I put them in at about 5 feet 1/2 way between the seating and tv? I am already going to have to haggle with my wife to get the denon 2112cI so I can't afford other in wall speakers with an aimable tweeter.

I am looking at the in walls I have and the tweeter has 4 mounting screws. What if I backed them out and "shimed" the tweeters toward the listening area?

Before you go to the trouble of installing in-ceilings in a compromised position, I would contact Roger Dressler. He is a former Dolby engineer and can advise you whether this is worth the effort. Here is a link to his profile:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=1461

Send him a PM and ask him to check out this thread. He's a very nice and helpful guy. I'm sure he will give you good advice.

Craig

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post #7 of 17 Old 06-08-2011, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! PM sent.
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post #8 of 17 Old 06-08-2011, 08:23 PM
 
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Exactly as has been said before, unless you are completely able to do height and width PROPERLY, there is no point.

About the only way to do it properly(in your case) is with motorized in ceiling speakers...
http://www.amazon.com/KEF-CI200-3QT-...7589900&sr=1-2

You could mount speakers on poles up in the air as well, or hang them from the ceiling with these...
http://www.amazon.com/OmniMount-Stai...7589998&sr=1-1
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post #9 of 17 Old 06-08-2011, 10:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I really hate the thought of not using these in walls and there is no way I am going to drop $1000 on 2 motorized speakers. I may be able to do the ceiling speaker mounts but I can't see the wife buying 2 boxes in the air like that. I just ordered the 2112CI tonight so maybe I will try rear surrounds and somehow hold the in ceilings speakers up for a trial run when it comes. Man I wish I had a basement!
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post #10 of 17 Old 06-08-2011, 10:22 PM
 
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There are these things....
http://www.amazon.com/-Q-HT5655-Aima...596911&sr=1-20
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post #11 of 17 Old 06-09-2011, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Maybe I can sell these and get some in walls that are aimable. Never heard on those "On q" speakers. Thanks, I will do some more research.
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post #12 of 17 Old 06-09-2011, 07:18 AM
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I'd stick with 5.1 in that room, but that's just me.

Otherwise I wouldn't worry about timbre matching the surround speakers unless you listen to a lot of multi-channel music or Blue-Ray concerts. Find some cheap surrounds that will work in your room (you don't need to spend $1000 on motorized speakers). Good luck to you.

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post #13 of 17 Old 06-09-2011, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I have found quite a few modest priced angled in ceiling speakers from outdoor speaker depot.com
anyone ever heard of them? The reviews and specs seem pretty good....
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post #14 of 17 Old 06-09-2011, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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post #15 of 17 Old 06-09-2011, 02:16 PM
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Again, before you spend a lot of time money and effort, be sure that the extra surrounds are worth it. Just having extra speakers is not worth the trouble if they are poorly placed, mis-aimed or badly installed. As Nuance stated, you would be better off with a good 5.1 system than a highly compromised 7.1 system. Just because your new receiver is "capable" of 7.1 doesn't mean you should *use* 7.1. If your room and seating don't allow for proper installation of the speakers, then a 7.1 system will be WORSE than 5.1. Here is the proper "traditional" installation of a 7.1 system:



If you can't make it work like that, and you can't use the heights in their proper positions, (above the L & R mains), then forget 7.1.

In addition, in-walls and in-ceiling speakers like the ones you're considering use cheap drivers and they have no enclosure. If you want to learn about the issues with enclosure-less in-walls, read this:
http://www.cepro.com/article/how_to_...er_systems/D1/

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post #16 of 17 Old 06-09-2011, 02:28 PM
 
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What you "could do" to find out if this is going to be feasible. Get a pair of Bogen poles(look like shower curtain rods) that go strait up and down. Even if you paid $50 to rent a pair for a day, that is money well spent to try out some speaker angles. If it won't work on a Bogen pole, it isn't going to work permanently mounted...

http://www.amazon.com/Bogen-Manfrott...654838&sr=1-16

Any time I get an install where the person wants in-wall speakers. The first things I take in the house are Bogen poles, Xantech XOD65(I have 4 pairs) and a stud finder. I go around the room and set the bogen poles up, then find the best place for the Xantech. The "best place" for the Xantech, is usually the best place for in-ceiling/wall speakers to go. And yes, 7 of those speakers mounted on poles looks like a monstrocity. But a visual monstrocity that also sounds like one, usually turns people around in a hurry. But many times, it helps give them a sense of the sound they'll end up with before holes start getting drilled.

And before you go "Well that is a light pole", speakers use the same mounts as lights.
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post #17 of 17 Old 06-09-2011, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, The poles actually sound like a smart idea instead of blindly drilling holes in my ceiling! From my research, I will defiantly look at new in ceiling speakers that are angled and or with a aimable tweeter and may even consider building enclosures for them.
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