Equipping a Dinner Theater w/ Cinema Sound (Blueprints Included) - AVS Forum
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:32 PM
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For a room that size, with your budget, I would consider PA/DJ speakers. JBL, Peavy ect. These speakers are relatively cheap. They play very loud, and don't use huge amounts of amplifier power.

A standard mixing board can accept connections from your Blu-ray and such. But you will also have the options on a microphone, plugging in a guitar ect.
This could be very helpful for wedding receptions ect.

I would consider 2 main speakers at your "stage" then smaller speakers along the walls. Point the towards the back of the room, away from the stage. You will be able to control their individual volumes with the mixing board.

I think you goal should be to fill the room with sound, not volume. People love to hear music but don't want to scream over it. You will still have plenty of potential to really crank it up if you want.

I'm not sure but I think there is a DJ/Professional sound forum here, isn't there?

Have fun!
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, here is what I have come up with so far. I want the amps that power something like this to be rack-mountable. For the space that I am using, how many of each (LCR/Surround/Sub) should I use?


LCR - JBL 3677 - $887/ea
Click Here to view the speaker's specs.



LS, RS, RLS, RRS - JBL 8320 - $443/pair
Click here to view the speaker's specs.







Subwoofer - JBL 3635 - $861/ea
Click Here to view the speaker's specs.
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Old 06-14-2011, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swgiust View Post

For a room that size, with your budget, I would consider PA/DJ speakers. JBL, Peavy ect. These speakers are relatively cheap. They play very loud, and don't use huge amounts of amplifier power.

I would consider 2 main speakers at your "stage" then smaller speakers along the walls. Point the towards the back of the room, away from the stage. You will be able to control their individual volumes with the mixing board.

I didn't mean for the topic of stage speakers to come up in this thread, but as long as everyone can keep the two topics straight in their head, I am currently looking at a pair of JBL PRX635 speakers for the stage. I haven't decided exactly on what subs to match them with. I thought I would run them with a "Numark C3" 5-Channel 19" Rack Mountable DJ MIxer that has 3 mic inputs.

Please note that the stage is on the north wall of the ballroom, and IS NOT where the theater's screen is located. The motorized screen will drop down on the WEST wall in front of 4 windows that will have heavy drapes to block out any light.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that I get the JBL 3677 speakers for the L/C/R. Is one for each enough? I know that for we men, more always seems like it has to be better, but is that the case here?

It seems to me I could also continue with the plan of using the QSC RMX1850D amplifiers for these speakers as well (one pair per amp if I double up on them).

Below I have two images that show the 180" Screen (Measured Diagonally of course) which translates to 12' wide and 6.75' tall. The bottom of the screen would be approximately 5' off the ground. Everything is to scale in the images. What does everyone think? 1 of each of the L/C/R, or a pair for each? Yay, nay, go with something different?
LL
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:55 PM
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Your scenario is so hard to determine .. but, I would go with the 3 speaker configuration for the fronts, based on the 45' length of the room .. add 2 on each side and two rears ..

As well, I would also suggest you look into the Klipsch pro line ..

I would consider Peavey, Carvin or the lower end Crown units for your raw aplification ..

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Old 06-14-2011, 04:58 PM
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Don't stack speakers with their tweeters/hf drivers so far apart. It causes lobing. Your options are line source (think a 10ft tall line of tweeters) or point source (single point from where the sound emanates, not multiple points.), not a mix of the two.

No one's mentioned the JTR triple 12's for the front stage? Too deep? Matched up with pair or quad DTS-10's would make for a nice theater foundation.

Behringer EP4000's are cheap, yet pretty reliable. If you were doing a lot of DJ'ing I would get better, but for theater use, they'll be fine.

BTW, there was a thread over in the DIY subforum where the JBL 8320's were being sold for around $100 (shipped) used or less. They might have sold out. Too bad I don't like the sound of them otherwise I would have bought some.

YID DIY
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:02 PM
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I would strongly recommend you find a reputable local audio production company to come take a look at your room, budget, etc. and make suitable recommendations and help with your install and setup. It's very easy to waste money on gear that might not be right for your application, and it's also easy to damage your new gear if you don't know how to use it properly. There's more involved in a full room multi-speaker setup than some speakers and a mixer. You also need one or more speaker controllers (which need professional setup due to EQ and delay requirements), appropriate wiring, etc. There are also major differences between DJ mixers and real audio mixers and you'll want pro advice on which would work better for you.

At the least, if you can't find a good local audio production company to help you, contact pro music stores like Guitar Center, Sam Ash etc., and ask for their help. I'd be happy to offer you my company's services except we're located in PA, not exactly convenient.

Good luck.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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[quote=Looneybomber;20569387]Don't stack speakers with their tweeters/hf drivers so far apart. It causes lobing. Your options are line source (think a 10ft tall line of tweeters) or point source (single point from where the sound emanates, not multiple points.), not a mix of the two.

I was wondering about that when I was putting the picture together. I have changed the configuration slightly in the images below. Do you think ether of these configurations would cause any issues?
LL
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:10 PM
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OP,

I know you just started this thread, but you should start a thread in the DIY section. The most knowledgeable and veteran members tend to stay over there. You'll get much more help in that subforum.

With that said, you're heading in the right direction. Also look into some horn subs in the DIY section. I don't know how much bass you want as it's a winery. You don't want to be knocking down bottles of wine.
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

OP,

I know you just started this thread, but you should start a thread in the DIY section. The most knowledgeable and veteran members tend to stay over there. You'll get much more help in that subforum.

With that said, you're heading in the right direction. Also look into some horn subs in the DIY section. I don't know how much bass you want as it's a winery. You don't want to be knocking down bottles of wine.

I don't want to develop a reputation as someone who has multiple threads on the same topic, as I might have already started when I had a similar thread going earlier. I will post a thread in the DIY section linking to this thread. Perhaps that will drive some of those veterans you were talking about to this thread. (I also had the same thread going on three different forums, as I was not sure which one would receive the most/quality replies. I have settled on avsforum.com :-)
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Old 06-14-2011, 05:28 PM
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You can go with the JBL AM7215 or AM5215 series of speakers horizontally mounted above the screen which you can angle down towards the listening area and you can also choose the dispersion pattern of the speaker to further reduce reflectivity in the room so everything will sound clean and clear.

Choosing the JBL AC2212 compact models for surrounds.

And using the JBL ASB6125 subwoofer for the bass duties. Maybe place an Auralex Gramma under the sub so you don't shake the winery apart.
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:03 PM
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Aye! Now that's a subwoofer. And those are good recommendations all 'round.

What I can afford, when I can afford it...
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Old 06-14-2011, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Rather than spend $400/ea for four 2-Channel Amps to run 8 surround speakers (on a 5.1 system), what do you think about the Ashly ne8250 8-Channel Network -Enabled Power Amp that would put out 150w x 8 @ 8 ohms to run those JBL 8320? Click here to see it.

Thoughts? Alternatives for an 8 Channel amp to that runs at 150w x 8 @ 8 ohms?
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:01 PM
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If you are going to do the L/C/R setup around a screen, don't use multiple speakers. Aside from the fact you don't need them, sound quality will suffer.

Before you get too far into all of this I would really do some serious thinking and planning, maybe here in this thread, about the various uses of the room. It seems that you may be doubling up on gear for the stage and video systems, and overly cluttering the space. I would recommend hiding/concealing speakers as best as possible with fabric or similar grills.

My first questions are what will you be watching/listening to on the screen, who will be watching/listening, and where will they be seated?

Looks like a very cool renovation and a fun little space.

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Seaton Sound, Inc.
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

If you are going to do the L/C/R setup around a screen, don't use multiple speakers. Aside from the fact you don't need them, sound quality will suffer.

It is why I asked :-) Just like Goldilocks...I am searching for something that will be "just right" for our application. Not to mention I am but one of 6 family members bank rolling this thing. I must also convince them that what I have come up with in the end is best for us.

Before you get too far into all of this I would really do some serious thinking and planning, maybe here in this thread, about the various uses of the room. It seems that you may be doubling up on gear for the stage and video systems, and overly cluttering the space. I would recommend hiding/concealing speakers as best as possible with fabric or similar grills.

The whole point of my original idea of using Deftech in-wall speakers was the ability to conceal things. I was convinced by 100% feedback that these would not be enough for our application. Therefore I am now looking at the JBL 3000 series. They seem shallow enough that I will be able to still build them into the wall. With 5.5" stuck into the wall, only 6" will protrude from the wall. I figured some nice fabric and crown molding will make them aesthetically pleasing. Since the stage is in a different part of the ballroom, it seemed logical to me that it would need different main L/R speakers. But then again, perhaps plugging the mics into the same amps that run the theater is enough. Hard to tell at this point because I have not asked that question yet. ;-)

My first questions are what will you be watching/listening to on the screen, who will be watching/listening, and where will they be seated?

Movies mostly. I plan on hooking up a DirecTV HD-DVR to it as well, so I think it would be safe to say things like the Super Bowl and other such events would be shown (whatever gets people in the door to buy wine :-) Seating for movie/tv watching would almost always be around 8 seat round tables (5' diameter?) that start between the two left french doors and moving back towards the eastern wall. Similar for the balcony, though the tables might be smaller. Other uses would be for wedding receptions (choke me now) ... the usual slide show/videos people show. In the end, I would say 75% of its use will be to show movies (with a commercial license to do so, of course).

Looks like a very cool renovation and a fun little space.

We think so :-) In the end we just need what we need. Defining that is the problem. Much of it might be 20/20 hindsight after monies are already spent. I want to be able to reflect positively with the hindsight.

P.S. We do not have the budget for a professional A/V firm to come out. Not to mention this is basically the Des Moines Metro in Iowa. Not a lot of companies would have the expertise anyway...and certainly not in our price range if they DO exist.
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

If you are going to do the L/C/R setup around a screen, don't use multiple speakers. Aside from the fact you don't need them, sound quality will suffer.

Okay then, let us at least get some consensus on speaker quantity for the LCRs. Mark says stick with 1 for each. As a "special member" my instincts tell me I should weigh his opinion heavily. Does anyone disagree with Mark's thoughts?

Mark - Just so I understand...you believe using 1 JBL 3635 for each of the LCR is enough for our application?
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Old 06-14-2011, 08:29 PM
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Yes, as I also stated on one of your other threads, I also mentioned that you don't want to double up the speakers.

It is extremely hard to tell whether the JBL 3677 will give you what you need for LCRs as we, and most likely you, don't really know at what volumes will be sufficient for you or others.
JBL doesn't give a max spl range so this makes it harder.

If you look at my earlier suggestion, you can make a soffit to cover the speakers and the screen so it will look nice and stealthy. You can still use JBL 8320s for the surrounds as well.
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Old 06-14-2011, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post

Okay then, let us at least get some consensus on speaker quantity for the LCRs. Mark says stick with 1 for each. As a "special member" my instincts tell me I should weigh his opinion heavily.

Right - and he is here to help.

And just for fun
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/The...eries/3677.pdf


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Old 06-14-2011, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ifor View Post

If you look at my earlier suggestion, you can make a soffit to cover the speakers and the screen so it will look nice and stealthy. You can still use JBL 8320s for the surrounds as well.

I couldn't find your earlier suggestion.
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Old 06-14-2011, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ifor View Post

You can go with the JBL AM7215 or AM5215 series of speakers horizontally mounted above the screen which you can angle down towards the listening area and you can also choose the dispersion pattern of the speaker to further reduce reflectivity in the room so everything will sound clean and clear.

Choosing the JBL AC2212 compact models for surrounds.

And using the JBL ASB6125 subwoofer for the bass duties. Maybe place an Auralex Gramma under the sub so you don't shake the winery apart.

These are high output speakers that produce large amounts of volume.

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/genera...x?FId=25&MID=2
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Old 06-15-2011, 01:44 AM
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Are you willing to diy? You can build some impressive speakers, subs and a acoustic transparent screen for a nice price.

I don't want to type all this again so I just quoted myself from another thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

x3 sc-2150 clones for your LCR. I can provide a bill of materials if needed for the speakers. Each speaker will run you $380-$400 before shipping.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1265019
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1173647

x2 TubaHT
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/THT.html
or
x2 F20
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1329971
Both of these subs use the MFW15 driver which is $77 + shipping, you can contact Eric H on this forum to purchase them.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/MFW_15.htm

For surrounds you can use this
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...28#post1695728
or
Get some Tannoy V8 from ebay.
or
Jbl 8340
or
8CX21 + crossover

So for $2000 (not including shipping, paint, wood, screws, etc...) you can have an efficient quality 7.2 system.

Build your own fixed frame screen using Centerstage XD fabric.
http://www.seymourav.com/store.asp

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Old 06-15-2011, 05:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

Are you willing to diy? You can build some impressive speakers, subs and a acoustic transparent screen for a nice price.

I don't want to type all this again so I just quoted myself from another thread.

I can see now that you are going to be very dangerous for me to know.
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:22 AM
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You are getting some good advise here. I would like to re-state some from above. Especially if you are looking at PA/DJ type gear. Which you should be able to do well, well within your budget.

CALL A LOCAL DEALER. HAVE THEM COME AND LOOK AT YOUR ROOM. THEY SHOULD NOT CHARGE YOU EXTRA TO PROVIDE YOU ADVICE. BUY THE GEAR FROM THEM, LET THEM SET IT UP, AND SHOW YOU HOW TO USE IT!

You mentioned a $ 20K budget, you can easily get all this done for that.
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Old 06-15-2011, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swgiust View Post

You are getting some good advise here. I would like to re-state some from above. Especially if you are looking at PA/DJ type gear. Which you should be able to do well, well within your budget.

CALL A LOCAL DEALER. HAVE THEM COME AND LOOK AT YOUR ROOM. THEY SHOULD NOT CHARGE YOU EXTRA TO PROVIDE YOU ADVICE. BUY THE GEAR FROM THEM, LET THEM SET IT UP, AND SHOW YOU HOW TO USE IT!

You mentioned a $ 20K budget, you can easily get all this done for that.

Well, I actually mentioned a $15k - $20k budget, of which $10k is tied up in the projector. That leaves $5k - $10k for the sound and amps (closer to $5k the better).
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Old 06-15-2011, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchswan0311 View Post

I was wondering about that when I was putting the picture together. I have changed the configuration slightly in the images below. Do you think ether of these configurations would cause any issues?

Yes it'll cause issues as Mark (as in Mark Seaton http://seatonsoundinc.com/) and others have mentioned. I should have been more specific and mentioned that the tweeters needed to be as close as possible, within 1-2 inches at most.

As mrkazador pointed out, the QSC SC2150 clones would work. I don't know if the crossovers are available from QSC any more though. The information needed to rebuild that crossover could be had from pictures and reverse engineering it. The horns needed might not be available either. If you do decide to go that route and you can't get the horns, I have three available for a build I didn't finish.

YID DIY
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Old 06-15-2011, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I can see I am being driven in the direction of building these speakers myself. If I am able to do it properly, this might be the best option for us, as it would ensure we get the kind of sound we need specifically for this space while allowing us to do it in such a way that fits our aesthetic needs as well.

To all you DIY professors out there; this means I am going to need a lot of advice and help from you all. I suppose if that wasn't your thing, you wouldn't be here in the first place ;-)

So, let me put together some sketches and make another post later with what I am thinking...a plan of attack of sorts. From there, maybe you can all help guide that preliminary plan in the right direction (whilst making sure I don't make any rookie mistakes :-) Don't worry, I am pretty sure I won't be over my head. I am fairly tech savvy in most areas. I just have never jumped into audio with this depth because I have never had the need until now.
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Old 06-15-2011, 03:44 PM
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Crossover and horn is available to purchase through the online QSC parts store. You can add them to your cart and checkout without problems. I have not actually purchased them so I can't say for certain if you can. The mid range is out of stock but I suggest purchasing the drivers through another store. QSC probably doesn't stock a huge amount of drivers and the price difference at other websites is not big. PM me if you want the bill of materials.
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Old 06-15-2011, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, here is what I have come up with so far. Please do not make fun of me yet, as I have little or no knowledge of cabinet design, or of what are the optimal quantity and sizes of drivers I should put in said cabinet. That is what I am here to learn. I wonder if it will be practical to keep the cabinet depth at 12" or less? The image below is meant to give you an idea of what the winery ballroom's "west wall" has to offer. Everything is to scale in this image. I did a quick search for "motorized acoustically transparent screen" and my eyes are bulging at prices...guidance to that end is appreciated as well!

Okay...let the feedback begin :-)


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Old 06-15-2011, 06:37 PM
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I would stick to a proven speaker design instead of creating your own. The QSC SC-2150 is very efficient, it can put out reference levels at <50 watts depending on seating distance. The 2150 uses 2 15" woofers and the waveguide is (HxWxD)17.3" x 16.3" x 6.8".

Another option is the 3pi speakers. You can buy a kit or ask to get the schematic for free so you can source the parts yourself for a cheaper price.
http://www.pispeakers.com/Prices.html
http://audioroundtable.com/forum/ind...read&frm_id=33
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